Birth date of Christ[W:61]

[laska]

When The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was officially organized on April 6, 1830 the prophet Joseph Smith stated the following:


D&C 20:1-4

"1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—
2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;
3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;
4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen."



Revelation 22:
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.






Venus is the bright and morning star, so Christ is tied to Venus.


"The Venus Calendar keeps track of the position of the planet Venus in the heavens. Venus is nearer to the sun that the earth, so it can never be opposite from the sun in the sky. That means that if you see a bright star up at midnight, it is never Venus. When Venus is near the sun, it is invisible and below the horizon at night. When it is on one side of its orbit from the sun, it is the "morning star" in the eastern dawn sky and when it is on the other side it is the "evening star". It is much brighter than any star in the sky, so it is a really impressive sight. But it can never get very far from the sun." -Astronomer John Pratt


Venus has a 585 day calendar cycle in its journey through the earth's sky. Which means New Years day for Venus, when the cycle first begins and the star is born in the sky, happens once every 585 days. Exactly 1830 years earlier to the day of the organization of the LDS church, the day when Joseph Smith stated was the birth of Christ, it was New Years day for Venus.


Mercury is also known as an evening and morning star. It has a 117 day cycle. On the date above, Mercury was also celebrating its New Years day. It is rare that both evening and morning stars are aligned on the same day.


That date also was the first day of Passover on the Hebrew Calendar.


John Pratt:
"The Lord instituted the Passover celebration at the time of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt, to commemorate their release from slavery after the angel of death slew the firstborn of Egypt but "passed over" the Israelite homes (See Ex. 12.) However, as the symbolism of the Passover is reviewed, it will be clear that the Passover ceremony is not only symbolic of the redemption of Israel from bondage, it also was in similitude of the redemption of mankind from death and sin by the Lamb of God."
"The Passover feast centered on the paschal lamb, which was a sacrificial lamb, a male without blemish and with no broken bone, even after death. (See Ex. 12:5, 46.) Likewise, Jesus was the "Passover," the "Lamb of God" (1 Cor. 5:7; John 1:29), a male without blemish and with no broken bone, even after death (John 19:36). He was the Firstborn of God in the premortal existence (D&C 93:21), sanctified in the flesh as were the firstborn of Israel (Ex. 12:23-24), and slain even as were the firstborn of Egypt (Ex. 12:29).
The Passover lamb was to be chosen on 10 Nisan, the tenth day of the Jewish lunar month Nisan. It was to be killed by "the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel" on 14 Nisan (Ex. 12:6), which was usually the day of the first full moon of spring. Jewish sources state that the lamb was sacrificed between 3:00 and 5:00 P.M. on that day.[3]"




There is an early Christian tradition that Jesus stayed in the womb for ten months. Ten months before the date Joseph Smith gives as the birth of Christ, there was a spectacular conjunction of Venus and Jupiter in June, 2 B.C that fits perfectly as the star of Bethlehem and the sign of the conception of Christ . "Let's look at just what is so spectacular about this proposed conjunction. First, it occurred in Leo the Lion, which is the constellation associated with the tribe of Judah. That association is based on the blessing given to Judah that he was compared to a "lion's whelp," while others of the twelve tribes are compared to others of the twelve zodiac constellations such as Reuben to water and Dan to a serpent (Gen. 49: 9,4, 17). The connection of Judah to a lion is confirmed in the Book of Revelation which refers to the Lamb of God as "the lion of the tribe Judah" (Rev. 5:5-7). The Lion was known as the "king of beasts" and Judah was the royal line of the twelve tribes.
Secondly, the conjunction occurred near Regulus, the brightest star in Leo, and the most important of the four bright "royal stars" of zodiac. Regulus means "The Prince" and is one of the many bright stars which was apparently symbolized Christ anciently. This star seems to emphasize his role as the Prince of Peace and King of Kings.
Third, the conjunction was between the two brightest planets, Jupiter and Venus. Jupiter or Zeus represented the Father of Gods (perhaps a pagan version of "Heavenly Father") and Venus or Isis represented the virgin mother of the infant god Horus who would come to reign, which sounds a lot like the virgin Mary.
Fourth, the conjunction was so incredibly close that the two planets actually appeared to touch each other. Moreover, both planets were are a very bright part of their cycles. Such a conjunction is extremely rare. Computer calculations indicate that there has never been a closer, brighter conjunction of Jupiter and Venus in the 2,000 years before and after the birth of Christ.[2]
Finally, from Jerusalem, the two planets appeared to descend to the earth after sunset as they touched:

"As the sky darkened this brilliant 'double star' sank lower, the planets drawing nearer and nearer. At last, just above the horizon, they fused into one, gleaming like a great beacon over Judea to the west."[1]​

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It looks like The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was organized on the Lord's birthday.

 

[laska]

Here is a calendar spreadsheet created by John Pratt. You can enter any date and see haw the stars/sacred calendars are aligned on that date. You may need to google and study John Pratt's articles on astronomy and the sacred calendars to really understand it. It is fun to put in birth dates of family members. For example I put in a friend and her daughter and they share the same birthday on the Mercury calendar, and on a day that is very symbolic of birth. My own family has a lot of little things like that.

Calendrical Spreadsheet

 

[brothern]

Herod died in 4 BCE.

 

[laska]

Herod died in 4 BCE.

Yet Another Eclipse for Herod

 

[brothern]

Second point: How do orbits, which are well understood to be governed by the gravitational attraction between the Sun and the planets, have anything to do with events on Earth?

Gods don't have anything to do with the planets in actuality, even if Christians adopted the significance of pagans making the planets into deities.

 

[laska]

Second point: How do orbits, which are well understood to be governed by the gravitational attraction between the Sun and the planets, have anything to do with events on Earth?

Gods don't have anything to do with the planets in actuality, even if Christians adopted the significance of pagans making the planets into deities.

The calendars take a view from someone on the earth and looking at the regular phases of the sun, moon, stars in the sky from their viewpoint. They track time for people on the earth.

 

[brothern]

Yet Another Eclipse for Herod

Quatsch. The Romans kept stellar records, which are a whole lot more dependable than a mention of lunar eclipse by Josephus, or the many other lunar eclipses that occurred 5 BCE - 1 BCE that could be the reference point. The only support for the 1 BCE event comes from conservative scholars who can't deal with the idea that early Christians were terrible mathematicians, because they didn't have the benefits of archeology, modern technology and widespread literacy.

Secondly, this fits perfectly well into the whole narrative. Egyptians too kept great records, which is why we know so much about them, and how (for example) the oldest recorded human names are Egyptians. From these records we know that Moses wasn't a historical person. There has never been any shred of historically contemporary archeological and written evidence that any Israelite or Jewish person ever existed within the borders of Egypt; which doubles on top of the historical anachronisms already contained within the Exodus story, that points to it being a mythological story written in the 1st millennium BCE. Again that's not surprising given that Hebrew as a language didn't evolve until the 10th Century BCE.

The Matthean Jesus was created to be a "newer" version of the Old Testament Moses, evidence by the significant literary parallels between Moses and Jesus. Part of that include the Herod/Pharaoh theme of killing newborn baby boys and Moses/Jesus fleeing into the Egyptian countryside to escape such a purge. That's not prophecy, as it is not possible to see into the future, but what's called a extended literary metaphor, constructed after the fact by well-meaning authors.

Or maybe, the sun and moon predict events on Earth, and soothsayers can see into the future, and magic words can have an effect on the material world?

 

[brothern]

The calendars take a view from someone on the earth and looking at the regular phases of the sun, moon, stars in the sky from their viewpoint. They track time for people on the earth.

"there was a spectacular conjunction of Venus and Jupiter in June, 2 B.C that fits perfectly as the star of Bethlehem and the sign of the conception of Christ . "Let's look at just what is so spectacular about this proposed conjunction. First, it occurred in Leo the Lion, which is the constellation associated with the tribe of Judah."

Stars predicting events on Earth. Exactly the type of beliefs that you in other magical belief systems. The Chinese Zodiac, or Western astrology (Aries, Cancer, Taurus), etc.

 

[laska]

Other evidence that Christ was born on April 6, 1 BC, on Passover.

From the John Pratt Herod eclipse article:

4. Was Christ born in 1 B.C.?

4.1 Age Thirty

As mentioned above, Luke says Christ was about thirty when he was baptized after John began his ministry in A.D. 29. The year of A.D. 29 is also indicated because the crucifixion of Christ most likely occurred in the spring of A.D. 33[30] (with A.D. 31 and 32 astronomically unacceptable), and the Book of John implies that his baptism was about three and a half years before.

If Christ was baptized in A.D. 29, one needs only to count back "about thirty" years to arrive at his birth date about 2 B.C. Today it is popular to interpret "about thirty" as meaning "26-34" in order to accommodate a birth date for Christ in 6-5 B.C. However, the early Christian fathers, such as Irenaeus and Epiphanius, accepted the straightforward interpretation that it meant a few months less than thirty.[31]

Christ made a point of fulfilling the law of Moses in every detail (Mat. 5:17), which would have included beginning his public ministry at age 30 (Num. 4:3). He apparently began his public ministry at the Passover in A.D. 30 (after his baptism) because 1) his first miracle was done rather secretly "not many days" before that Passover (John 2:9-13); 2) at that time he said, "mine hour is not yet come" (John 2:4), suggesting that the time for his public ministry had not arrived because he was not yet thirty; and 3) he then openly taught and did miracles at Passover (John 2:23),[32] implying that he was then thirty. If so, Christ was born in the spring of 1 B.C., on or shortly before Passover.

4.2 Passover Birth

A Passover birth for Christ is likely for other reasons. It has already been noted that spring was lambing season when shepherds watched their flocks by night (Luke 2:8), that it would fit the timing of Gabriel's visit to Zacharias (Luke 1:5-13), and that it would explain the crowded inn (Luke 2:7) if his birth was during Passover.[33] This last argument is especially strong because a registration that lasted at least several months would hardly have crowded Bethlehem at any time. On the other hand, Joseph, like all Jewish men before the destruction of the temple, was required to go to Jerusalem for Passover (also Pentecost and Tabernacles, Deut. 16:16), even with Mary so near to giving birth. It would have been logical to visit nearby Bethlehem to register to save making a special trip from Nazareth. The crowdedness suggests that Christ was born at most a day or so before Passover, because travelers would not need to arrive many days early.

The birth of Christ in 1 B.C. fits the 2 B.C. timing of the enrollment described by Orosius very well. He assumed that Christ was born in the year the decree was made (2 B.C.), but Luke says the decree was made "in those days" (Luke 2:1), referring back to when John the Baptist had been born about six months earlier in 2 B.C. (Luke 1:26).

 

[RAMOSS]

Herod died in 4 BCE.

And the Census in Luke was in 6 C.E.

 

[laska]

And the Census in Luke was in 6 C.E.

Read the article in the link I provided.

 

[RAMOSS]

Read the article in the link I provided.

It needs a plug in I have disabled for security reasons. However, I ahve seen tons of article trying to refute that, and none can legitiemently refute the census of Luke being in 6 C.E.. without lying about things.

 

[laska]

It needs a plug in I have disabled for security reasons. However, I ahve seen tons of article trying to refute that, and none can legitiemently refute the census of Luke being in 6 C.E.. without lying about things.

Here is an excerpt from the article:
2.3 Empire-wide Registration

Until recently, no empire-wide enrollment (Luke 2:1) was known that would have been required of Joseph and Mary; the commonly cited taxation of 8 B.C. applied only to Roman citizens. Now Martin has identified it as a combined census and oath of allegiance to Augustus in 3-2 B.C., perhaps related to the bestowal of the title "pater patriae" (father of thy country) by the senate on Feb. 5, 2 B.C.[10] Josephus records that over 6,000 Pharisees refused to pledge their good will to Caesar (about a year or so before Herod died),[11] probably referring to that oath because the census would have recorded how many refused. Orosius (a fifth century historian) clearly links an oath to the registration at the birth of Christ:
"[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. So at that time, Christ was born and was entered on the Roman census list as soon as he was born. This is the earliest and most famous public acknowledgment which marked Caesar as the first of all men and the Romans as lords of the world ... that first and greatest census was taken, since in this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and at the same time, through the participation in the census, were made part of one society."[12]
He identified the time of the census using two Roman systems that both agree to indicate 2 B.C.[13] This implies a lower limit for Herod's death of 2 B.C.




A Passover birth for Christ is likely for other reasons. It has already been noted that spring was lambing season when shepherds watched their flocks by night (Luke 2:8), that it would fit the timing of Gabriel's visit to Zacharias (Luke 1:5-13), and that it would explain the crowded inn (Luke 2:7) if his birth was during Passover.[33] This last argument is especially strong because a registration that lasted at least several months would hardly have crowded Bethlehem at any time. On the other hand, Joseph, like all Jewish men before the destruction of the temple, was required to go to Jerusalem for Passover (also Pentecost and Tabernacles, Deut. 16:16), even with Mary so near to giving birth. It would have been logical to visit nearby Bethlehem to register to save making a special trip from Nazareth. The crowdedness suggests that Christ was born at most a day or so before Passover, because travelers would not need to arrive many days early.
The birth of Christ in 1 B.C. fits the 2 B.C. timing of the enrollment described by Orosius very well. He assumed that Christ was born in the year the decree was made (2 B.C.), but Luke says the decree was made "in those days" (Luke 2:1), referring back to when John the Baptist had been born about six months earlier in 2 B.C. (Luke 1:26).

 

[tosca1]

When The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was officially organized on April 6, 1830 the prophet Joseph Smith stated the following:


D&C 20:1-4

"1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—
2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;
3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;
4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen."



Revelation 22:
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



Venus is the bright and morning star, so Christ is tied to Venus.

Venus is also one of the pagan goddesses being worshipped at the time of the Apostles!




Ashtoreth [N]

the moon goddess of the Phoenicians, representing the passive principle in nature, their principal female deity; frequently associated with the name of Baal, the sun-god, their chief male deity ( Judges 10:6 ; 1 Samuel 7:4 ; 12:10 ). These names often occur in the plural (Ashtaroth, Baalim), probably as indicating either different statues or different modifications of the deities. This deity is spoken of as Ashtoreth of the Zidonians. She was the Ishtar of the Accadians and the Astarte of the Greeks ( Jeremiah 44:17 ; 1 Kings 11:5 1 Kings 11:33 ; 2 Kings 23:13 ). There was a temple of this goddess among the Philistines in the time of Saul ( 1 Samuel 31:10 ). Under the name of Ishtar, she was one of the great deities of the Assyrians. The Phoenicians called her Astarte. Solomon introduced the worship of this idol ( 1 Kings 11:33 ). Jezebel's 400 priests were probably employed in its service ( 1 Kings 18:19 ). It was called the "queen of heaven" ( Jeremiah 44:25 ).



Ashtoreth [N] [E]

(a star ) the principal female divinity of the Phoenicians, called Ishtar by the Assyrians and Astarte by the Greeks and Romans. She was by some ancient writers identified with the moon. But on the other hand the Assyrian Ishtar was not the moon-goddess, but the planet Venus; and Astarte was by many identified with the goddess Venus (or Aphrodite), as well as with the plant of that name. It is certain that the worship of Astarte became identified with that of Venus, and that this worship was connected with the most impure rites is apparent from the close connection of this goddess with ASHERAH. ( 1 Kings 11:5 1 Kings 11:33 ; 2 Kings 23:13 )

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/ashtoreth/



What next? Jesus is the cousin of Baal?

Perhaps you ought to re-visit the Old Testament, that you'd see why God's wrath was repeatedly brought on the Israelites!

 

[RAMOSS]

Here is an excerpt from the article:
2.3 Empire-wide Registration

Until recently, no empire-wide enrollment (Luke 2:1) was known that would have been required of Joseph and Mary; the commonly cited taxation of 8 B.C. applied only to Roman citizens. Now Martin has identified it as a combined census and oath of allegiance to Augustus in 3-2 B.C., perhaps related to the bestowal of the title "pater patriae" (father of thy country) by the senate on Feb. 5, 2 B.C.[10] Josephus records that over 6,000 Pharisees refused to pledge their good will to Caesar (about a year or so before Herod died),[11] probably referring to that oath because the census would have recorded how many refused. Orosius (a fifth century historian) clearly links an oath to the registration at the birth of Christ:
"[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. So at that time, Christ was born and was entered on the Roman census list as soon as he was born. This is the earliest and most famous public acknowledgment which marked Caesar as the first of all men and the Romans as lords of the world ... that first and greatest census was taken, since in this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and at the same time, through the participation in the census, were made part of one society."[12]
He identified the time of the census using two Roman systems that both agree to indicate 2 B.C.[13] This implies a lower limit for Herod's death of 2 B.C.




A Passover birth for Christ is likely for other reasons. It has already been noted that spring was lambing season when shepherds watched their flocks by night (Luke 2:8), that it would fit the timing of Gabriel's visit to Zacharias (Luke 1:5-13), and that it would explain the crowded inn (Luke 2:7) if his birth was during Passover.[33] This last argument is especially strong because a registration that lasted at least several months would hardly have crowded Bethlehem at any time. On the other hand, Joseph, like all Jewish men before the destruction of the temple, was required to go to Jerusalem for Passover (also Pentecost and Tabernacles, Deut. 16:16), even with Mary so near to giving birth. It would have been logical to visit nearby Bethlehem to register to save making a special trip from Nazareth. The crowdedness suggests that Christ was born at most a day or so before Passover, because travelers would not need to arrive many days early.
The birth of Christ in 1 B.C. fits the 2 B.C. timing of the enrollment described by Orosius very well. He assumed that Christ was born in the year the decree was made (2 B.C.), but Luke says the decree was made "in those days" (Luke 2:1), referring back to when John the Baptist had been born about six months earlier in 2 B.C. (Luke 1:26).

There is a problem with the 8 bc census and with the user of it in Luke. 1) The census in 8 C.E was for ROMAN CITIZENs only. In 8 C.E, Judah was it's own country, and therefor Augustus could not ask for a census there.

Second of all, the census was when Quintarsus became governor over Syria, which is the first date the Rome could have done the census, because Judah become part of the province of Syria, when Herod the lessor got kicked out.

So, none of the arguments in your link make a bit of sense historically. The so called '8 bc' census is pretty much a fantasy when it comes to linking it with Herod and Quintarsis.

It's pretty much a contradiction where the people who believe in no contradictions in the bible bend over backwards to shove an explanation that just doesn't fit, but makes them happy anyway.

 

[ludin]

Second point: How do orbits, which are well understood to be governed by the gravitational attraction between the Sun and the planets, have anything to do with events on Earth?

Gods don't have anything to do with the planets in actuality, even if Christians adopted the significance of pagans making the planets into deities.

They didn't in fact they rejected this which is why they were set at odds with the roman empire because they refused to worship and bow to ceasar who was considered a god.

the fact that the LDS tries to tie Christ to a planet (some believe that Christ came from another planet or planet body) there is some really weird beliefs in the book fo mormon none of which are scripturally sound.

in any event tieing Christ to the planet Venus (again no biblical basis) is another thing that joseph smith set down which should make people leary of what they are teaching.

Christ is not tied to venus in any way shape or form.

 

[ludin]

It needs a plug in I have disabled for security reasons. However, I ahve seen tons of article trying to refute that, and none can legitiemently refute the census of Luke being in 6 C.E.. without lying about things.

Luke was correct in his writings of the census. along with many other things that luke wrote about. Luke is a noted historian and a very accurate one at that.
he wrote other articles other than things found in the bible. historians have been able to link many different roman leaders and historical events based on writings that luke
supplied.

many historians have labeled luke one of the most accurate ancient historians ever.

William Ramsay was one of the greatest archaeologists ever at first did not believe that luke was remotely accurate.
after his investigation into the matter his conclusion.

Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy... this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians... Luke's history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness

so there is no reason to doubt at all if luke wrote that there was a census in 6 CE that there was.
it is also possible that there were 2 different census in that time. one of them being earlier.

http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/census-luke2.html

 

[ludin]

There is a problem with the 8 bc census and with the user of it in Luke. 1) The census in 8 C.E was for ROMAN CITIZENs only. In 8 C.E, Judah was it's own country, and therefor Augustus could not ask for a census there.

Umm incorrect as it is even shown in egyptian writings along the same time frame that they had to depart for their own census.
A Brief Comment on the Census in Luke 2

during that time Judah was under Roman rule and they could force a census there if they wanted.

Second of all, the census was when Quintarsus became governor over Syria, which is the first date the Rome could have done the census, because Judah become part of the province of Syria, when Herod the lessor got kicked out.

Nope as the Romans let local provenices keep their own rulers as long as those rulers were following Roman authority. So there is no reason to believe that Herod would have been removed.

So, none of the arguments in your link make a bit of sense historically. The so called '8 bc' census is pretty much a fantasy when it comes to linking it with Herod and Quintarsis.

It's pretty much a contradiction where the people who believe in no contradictions in the bible bend over backwards to shove an explanation that just doesn't fit, but makes them happy anyway.

not there are not really any fantasy here. it is documented that there was a census during that time.
however this doesn't discount the census in 6CE which there was one then as well.

Quintarsus has been shown to be in 2 leader positions. 1 has a military commander the other as govenor.

 

[RAMOSS]

Luke was correct in his writings of the census. along with many other things that luke wrote about. Luke is a noted historian and a very accurate one at that.
he wrote other articles other than things found in the bible. historians have been able to link many different roman leaders and historical events based on writings that luke
supplied.

many historians have labeled luke one of the most accurate ancient historians ever.

William Ramsay was one of the greatest archaeologists ever at first did not believe that luke was remotely accurate.
after his investigation into the matter his conclusion.

Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy... this author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians... Luke's history is unsurpassed in respect of its trustworthiness

so there is no reason to doubt at all if luke wrote that there was a census in 6 CE that there was.
it is also possible that there were 2 different census in that time. one of them being earlier.

When did the Luke 2 census occur?

Then, of course, Luke is contradicting Matthew, and Matthew has to be wrong. .. since Luke has Jesus being born in 6 c.e, and Jesus starting his ministry in 36 c.e. ... right after John the Baptist getting executed. .. which Josephus as in 36 C.E.

Your Christian answers got it wrong, because.. and this is a big one, that until 6 c.e. , Augustus didn't have the right to order a census in Judah. The twisitng, lying and denial of reason and evidence that "Christian Answers' is doing is astounding.

Of course, a number of people do think Luke used Antiquities as a source. so it would not be surprising for Luke to line up with Josephus.

As for William Ramsey, well, he is pushed in religious ciricles, but it doesn't appear anybody else takes him seriously.

 

[RAMOSS]

Umm incorrect as it is even shown in egyptian writings along the same time frame that they had to depart for their own census.
A Brief Comment on the Census in Luke 2

during that time Judah was under Roman rule and they could force a census there if they wanted.



Nope as the Romans let local provenices keep their own rulers as long as those rulers were following Roman authority. So there is no reason to believe that Herod would have been removed.



not there are not really any fantasy here. it is documented that there was a census during that time.
however this doesn't discount the census in 6CE which there was one then as well.

Quintarsus has been shown to be in 2 leader positions. 1 has a military commander the other as govenor.

Actually, this claim is not supported. The best evidence is a piece of stone where the name has been totally obliterated by time, and the believers are claiming,, 'well, it might have been Quintarus'.

There is actually NO evidence to show that speculation is true. All that can be supplied is 'well, maybe'.. and frankly , that is clutching at straws. Nor, does it counter the point that prior to 6 c.e. , Augustus could not order a census in Judah.

 

[ludin]

Then, of course, Luke is contradicting Matthew, and Matthew has to be wrong. .. since Luke has Jesus being born in 6 c.e, and Jesus starting his ministry in 36 c.e. ... right after John the Baptist getting executed. .. which Josephus as in 36 C.E.

Your Christian answers got it wrong, because.. and this is a big one, that until 6 c.e. , Augustus didn't have the right to order a census in Judah. The twisitng, lying and denial of reason and evidence that "Christian Answers' is doing is astounding.

Of course, a number of people do think Luke used Antiquities as a source. so it would not be surprising for Luke to line up with Josephus.

As for William Ramsey, well, he is pushed in religious ciricles, but it doesn't appear anybody else takes him seriously.

not really as they date the birth of Christ from 8-4BC.

the 6 year date is just 1 of the census record there was another one before that.

yes they are wrong because you say :roll: they did the research you post an opinion. they have supporting facts as usual you have an opinion.

Augustus was emporer he could do whatever he wanted and you either complied or they marched Roman troops into your city killed your leaders and put their people in place. So yes he could tax whoever he wanted whenever he wanted.

we have already established luke's accuracy in and detail therefore there is no reason that he would be incorrect in this.
Apologetics Press - Luke, Quirinius, and the Census

A Brief Comment on the Census in Luke 2

so we have plenty of people to support the fact that the said event took place as luke and matthew wrote it.

 

[Logicman]

When The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was officially organized on April 6, 1830 the prophet Joseph Smith stated the following:

D&C 20:1-4

"1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April—
2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;
3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;
4 And this according to the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to whom be all glory, both now and forever. Amen."


Revelation 22:
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Venus is the bright and morning star, so Christ is tied to Venus.

"The Venus Calendar keeps track of the position of the planet Venus in the heavens. Venus is nearer to the sun that the earth, so it can never be opposite from the sun in the sky. That means that if you see a bright star up at midnight, it is never Venus. When Venus is near the sun, it is invisible and below the horizon at night. When it is on one side of its orbit from the sun, it is the "morning star" in the eastern dawn sky and when it is on the other side it is the "evening star". It is much brighter than any star in the sky, so it is a really impressive sight. But it can never get very far from the sun." -Astronomer John Pratt

Venus has a 585 day calendar cycle in its journey through the earth's sky. Which means New Years day for Venus, when the cycle first begins and the star is born in the sky, happens once every 585 days. Exactly 1830 years earlier to the day of the organization of the LDS church, the day when Joseph Smith stated was the birth of Christ, it was New Years day for Venus.

Mercury is also known as an evening and morning star. It has a 117 day cycle. On the date above, Mercury was also celebrating its New Years day. It is rare that both evening and morning stars are aligned on the same day.

That date also was the first day of Passover on the Hebrew Calendar.

John Pratt:
"The Lord instituted the Passover celebration at the time of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt, to commemorate their release from slavery after the angel of death slew the firstborn of Egypt but "passed over" the Israelite homes (See Ex. 12.) However, as the symbolism of the Passover is reviewed, it will be clear that the Passover ceremony is not only symbolic of the redemption of Israel from bondage, it also was in similitude of the redemption of mankind from death and sin by the Lamb of God."
"The Passover feast centered on the paschal lamb, which was a sacrificial lamb, a male without blemish and with no broken bone, even after death. (See Ex. 12:5, 46.) Likewise, Jesus was the "Passover," the "Lamb of God" (1 Cor. 5:7; John 1:29), a male without blemish and with no broken bone, even after death (John 19:36). He was the Firstborn of God in the premortal existence (D&C 93:21), sanctified in the flesh as were the firstborn of Israel (Ex. 12:23-24), and slain even as were the firstborn of Egypt (Ex. 12:29).
The Passover lamb was to be chosen on 10 Nisan, the tenth day of the Jewish lunar month Nisan. It was to be killed by "the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel" on 14 Nisan (Ex. 12:6), which was usually the day of the first full moon of spring. Jewish sources state that the lamb was sacrificed between 3:00 and 5:00 P.M. on that day.[3]"

There is an early Christian tradition that Jesus stayed in the womb for ten months. Ten months before the date Joseph Smith gives as the birth of Christ, there was a spectacular conjunction of Venus and Jupiter in June, 2 B.C that fits perfectly as the star of Bethlehem and the sign of the conception of Christ . "Let's look at just what is so spectacular about this proposed conjunction. First, it occurred in Leo the Lion, which is the constellation associated with the tribe of Judah. That association is based on the blessing given to Judah that he was compared to a "lion's whelp," while others of the twelve tribes are compared to others of the twelve zodiac constellations such as Reuben to water and Dan to a serpent (Gen. 49: 9,4, 17). The connection of Judah to a lion is confirmed in the Book of Revelation which refers to the Lamb of God as "the lion of the tribe Judah" (Rev. 5:5-7). The Lion was known as the "king of beasts" and Judah was the royal line of the twelve tribes.

(etc.)

It looks like The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was organized on the Lord's birthday.

It's been awhile but years ago I read a work on the birth of Jesus where he was born in the fall of the year - on "Tabernacles." The author went into detail on the Gospels about the description of the season, etc.

Here's an article I found on it.

The Feast of Tabernacles

Evidence for Jesus being born at the Feast of Tabernacles

The Jews expected the Messiah (Mashiach in Hebrew) to appear at the Feast of Tabernacles – this is why Jesus's sceptical brothers taunted him to go to it (Jn. 7:2-3). What was the basis of this expectation?

Jeremiah 23:5-6 tells us that the Messiah would be a "Branch from David's line". Zechariah prophesies that the Branch will wipe away our guilt (Zech. 3:9), that he will build the temple of the Lord and have royal dignity (Zech. 6:12-13), and that "on that day", the Line of David will be "like the Angel of the Lord going before them" (Zech. 12:8). When will "that day" be? It will be the Feast of Tabernacles! Zech. 14:16 tells us that that is when all nations are commanded to celebrate “that day”.

Acts 15:16, quoting Amos 9:11, explains that God has returned to re-build David's tabernacle, while Ezekial 37:24-28 prophesies that David, the servant shepherd, will become king (melech in Hebrew) and that His people will live "under the shelter of my dwelling".

Isaiah (Yishaiyahu in Hebrew) explains that the Lord will save us in Jerusalem (Yerushali'im in Hebrew) – a "city of feasts" and a "sturdy tent" (Is. 33:20-22) – and that His throne shall be set up in David's tent (Is. 16:5).

In John 1:14, the word “dwelled” is literally “tabernacled” in the Greek – and this comes as the climax to John’s “version” of the story of Christ’s incarnation.

 

[RAMOSS]

Those articles do not respond to the points made. Yes, they make those claims.. but let's see a pointer to the primary evidence. Have you noticed one similarity between those two articles?? They claim there is 'archeological evidence', yet, they don't point to what it is, nor the primary sources, They make claims about it, but don't back it up.

That is good for apoglistics, but not good as history. The actual historical evidence is different that what these apology sites claim.

 

[laska]

Good grief.

 

[RAMOSS]

Good grief.

Yet, for all your complaining, and for all your pointing to apologist sites, about the census, you can not point to the original archeological evidence. You point to 'if/then/maybes' that have been discredited. You take claims about Quintarsis that are speculative at best, and quote them as if they are solid facts.