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Bin Laden offers truce

TimmyBoy said:
Killing Bin Laden and his top henchmen won't stop Al-queda's ability to strike inside the US nor will it diminish such capability. They will just be replaced.

Killing just Bin Laden won't although it would strike a mighty if not ultimately mortal blow. But getting him AND his top henchmen most certainly will. Yes they will be replace, but my less and less compitent and contected and skilled henchmen.

Geez if we listen to you then let's just give up.
 
Binary_Digit said:
I wouldn't exactly go that far. I'm sure their capability to strike within the U.S. has been extremely low since 9/11, the threat just won't go away completely as long as their complaints are not resolved to their liking. That's how terrorists work.

Or we kill enough of their leadership and cut off enough of their funding that they cannot operate or get anyone to follow them any more.
 
TimmyBoy said:
No amount security or killings of terrorist leaders, without addressing the root cause of terrorism, is going to make the US safe from terrorism.

Well the root cause of this terrorism is the freedom we and many other countries live in and our western ways. So I guess we can give that up and then they won't be mad anymore with us since we'll all be living under the laws of Islam and of course we should help them wipe Israel of the map just as a sign of our sincerity.

Since nothing we can do will stop them let's get on with it.
 
KCConservative said:
I made no mistake. I meant what I said.

And I agree with you, crazy as in Hitler was crazy too in the end. The pressure and fear that one in that situation lives in would drive anyone crazy and make them irrational as in his truce offer. But that also makes them all the more dangerous.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
So, if we give up Afghanistan and Iraq, aQ will play nice?

I'm not sure that really counts as a truce so much as a request for capitulation.

And what exactly does OBL give up in the deal. He stops killing the Iraqi people he is so concerned with? Hmm how about just stop killing them then.

He's scared and trying to save his own skin by negotaiting a stop to his manhunt.
 
Stinger said:
Killing just Bin Laden won't although it would strike a mighty if not ultimately mortal blow. But getting him AND his top henchmen most certainly will. Yes they will be replace, but my less and less compitent and contected and skilled henchmen.

Geez if we listen to you then let's just give up.

Al-queda has alot of skilled people. I don't think Al-queda will have a problem replacing Bin Laden and his henchmen with skilled, determined people. Bin Laden's replacements might be more evil and more determined than Bin Laden ever was. The replacements likely will be worse. I am not saying "give up" nor am I saying that we should negotiate with Bin Laden and his henchmen. What I am saying is that the US needs to address these root causes of terrorism and plan a long term, permenant solution to reduce the terrorist threat in the future. I have not seen this happen. I see, short term, temporary solutions that only tackle the symptoms rather than the cause of terrorism. We need to attack the cause of terrorism in order to provide a viable, long term, permenant solution to this threat. It is a very serious threat, a threat that could possibly bring about the end of mankind in my view, if not probably addressed and a long term solution that addresses the roots of terrorism implemented.
 
I just GOTTA ask...

-What is the "root cause" of terrorism;
-What is the "long term solution" to terrorism?
 
M14 Shooter said:
I just GOTTA ask...

-What is the "root cause" of terrorism;
-What is the "long term solution" to terrorism?

The long term solution is for the US to take more notice of the injustices in the world and take them seriously and not ignore them. Base foreign policy off principles rather than interests. Promote the right to freedom, justice and self determination to all people everywhere. Also be fair with dealings with other nations. The US ignored the genocide in Bosnia and Rwanda and could have quite easily stopped them while getting invovled in other nations based on interests. This is what gives feul to terrorists. Terrorists need the hearts and minds of the people they come from in order to carry out their attacks on us. We need to show those people we are nation based on principles and freedom and not on greed and interests.
 
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Stinger said:
And what exactly does OBL give up in the deal. He stops killing the Iraqi people he is so concerned with? Hmm how about just stop killing them then.
He's scared and trying to save his own skin by negotaiting a stop to his manhunt.
He's not negotiating. It's just a publicity stunt. There's no way that he expects the US et al to even speculatively consider his proposal.
 
Stinger said:
Well the root cause of this terrorism is the freedom we and many other countries live in and our western ways.
That is completely false. Whoever told you that is a liar. Read bin Laden's letter to America, if you're sincerely interested in what motivates "this terrorism."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

Also:

"In an interview with The American Conservative magazine, Robert Pape, author of the book Dying to Win, said "The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign — over 95 percent of all the incidents — has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Terrorist_view
 
TimmyBoy said:
The long term solution is for the US to take more notice of the injustices in the world and take them seriously and not ignore them.
The injustices in the world are our responsibility?
I must have missed the memo...

Will the Islamofascists hate us less and stop wanting to kill themselves on us when we address the injustices found in their brand of Islam?

Promote the right to freedom, justice and self determination to all people everywhere
Islamofascists are going to hate us less iand be less likely to kill themselves on us if we push the idea that Arab/Islamic women should have the right to vote?

Base foreign policy off principles rather than interests.
It is presently based on a principle - that the US government exists to protect the rights of the American people.

The US ignored the genocide in Bosnia and Rwanda and could have quite easily stopped them while getting invovled in other nations based on interests. This is what gives feul to terrorists. Terrorists need the hearts and minds of the people they come from in order to carry out their attacks on us.
Ah... but this isnt a "root cause".
 
teacher said:
2.He is pandering to the left of this country to increase pressure on Washington to get out of those two countries. Just like public pressure swayed Washington to pull out of Nam. The terrorists have always sought to use our very freedom against us. I don't see how this is any diferent. He's giving the left in this country the ability to say, "see, the nice man just wants us out of other countries." Many of you will fall for it, I'm sure. And if we were to pull out he'll swiftly try to reverse democracy there and reestablish his power base.

All in all, strategically speaking, keeping in mind his goal of looking for Muslim support, a good ploy this. The man is not insane.

I searched through the whole thread to see if anybody thought of this yet. A truce is offered meaninglessly, but OBL, just by using the word, seems to be offering some hope that his group may be ready to talk in a reasonable way with its enemies. Your statement above that the left will see this as a potential fig leaf seems true to me, and this has to be what he is thinking, and the reason he made this offer. He repeatedly talks about the division in our country regarding the war, and he is trying to exploit it.

But I think he is hoping for more than this. His offer of truce will be wrongly perceived by some of the Arabic countries as an effort to stop hostilities. Some of them will believe he is taking a step toward compromise. His plan may soften the attitudes toward AQ of some of the Arabs he has alienated. Money flow toward his type would pick up. (Of course, some of the true fanatics may think its time for OBL to retire, because his resolve is weakening).

And how will the Europeans take this? Will they see hope in this sham? Most of them didn't support us in Iraq from the beginning. Our negative response to the offer shows, to them, that we are unreasonable warmongering thugs who will continue to do whatever we want. OBL likes this, he hopes to worsen world opinion of the U.S., and wants the Europeans to press harder for us to leave Iraq.

Not that any if this should matter, as we need to pursue the terrorists whatever world opinion is.
 
M14 says
The injustices in the world are our responsibility?

Some of our friends on the left believe that everything wrong in the world is the fault of the USA.........
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I think he is crazy.

Crazy, but not entirely irrational. Obviously he's capable of well organized thought and complex human interaction. Don't make him right in the head though.

I think we're all crazy but it's just a question of degree. That said, Bin Laden's "crazy" like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and the rest of them are crazy with one big exception. OBL has a world of followers who would gladly blow themselves, and innocent civilians up, to get to heaven. Blind allegiance to religious dogma is, by its very nature, a mental illness.
 
Unless I missed it somewhere, nobody has yet hit the real reason for bin Laden's so-called 'truce' offer: if we don't take him up on it (and of course, we won't), after the next attack, he will be able to say, "hey, I gave you an opportunity to avoid an attack!" If you remember, this is exactly what he did before the London and Spain attacks. Coupled with his typical 'warning' that was also contained in this tape, my guess is that, based on the length of time between warnings about Spain and London attacks and their occurence, we in the US should be expecting an attack here sometime in the next 10 - 14 months.
 
hipsterdufus said:
I think we're all crazy but it's just a question of degree. That said, Bin Laden's "crazy" like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and the rest of them are crazy with one big exception. OBL has a world of followers who would gladly blow themselves, and innocent civilians up, to get to heaven. Blind allegiance to religious dogma is, by its very nature, a mental illness.

I could not agree more.........You have a few nuts on the left too like Chamberlain, Nagin, and Moore too............
 
M14 Shooter said:
I just GOTTA ask...

-What is the "root cause" of terrorism;
-What is the "long term solution" to terrorism?


Outstanding questions....

1) Root Cause - The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al Banna and the vast majority of terrorists are members, however most Radicals are not. The majority of Islamic Radicals are "the sea from which the terrorists swim" and are revered. The cancer of Radical Islam grows where socio-economic conditions are poor; governments are repressive and unable to provide essential social services, such as providing adequate oversight of their educational system….or have allowed / sanctioned Radical Islamic curricula. Islamic fundamentalism has given an aim and form to the otherwise aimless and formless resentment and anger of the Muslim masses at the forces that have devalued their traditional values and loyalties and, in the final analysis, robbed them of their beliefs, their aspirations, their dignity, and to an increasing extent even their livelihood. Frustrated by the complete inability to exert any discernible degree of control over their immediate circumstances, frustrated adherents of Radical Islam, goaded by Radical Islamic Clerics, will resort to terrorism as the only avenue to effect religious, social, political, and economic change.

2) Short Term Solution - Radical Islam is a precursor to terrorism. It lays the ideological and religious foundation for Islamic-inspired violence and, as such, represents a long-term threat to the national security of the United States of America. The ongoing Global War on Terrorism targets the current generation of terrorists; however, unless the ideology that spawned them is also countered the long-term threat to the U.S. will exponentially grow with time.

3) Long Term Solution - Note...Some of these are active operations and some are general sentiments of the intel community.

a - Acknowledge the threat posed by Radical Islam.

b - We are not targeting Islam, just the Radical Islamists – we better say so.

c - Support the moderate voices (indirectly).

d - Focus our efforts on the long term enemy = the creation of more Radical Islamists.

e - Garner worldwide support for this effort…..and at least engage in the IO war more aggressively. Counter Al Jazeera and like Radical Islamic media….without appearing to do so.

f - Designate DOS (Department of State) as lead agency against countering Radical Islam.

g - Following recognition of the threat – fund the programs necessary to counter it.

h - Reorganize foreign assistance funding and efforts creating DOS “Regional Directors” that actually control assets = Reorganize DOS along Geographical vice Functional Lines (much like DoD Combatant CDRs).

i - Review Current Foreign Policy Focusing on Taking the Political Ammunition Away From the Radical Extremists.

j - Resolve Israeli / Palestinian and Indian / Pakistani disputes.

k - We must succeed in both Afghanistan and Iraq….and ensure these are perceived as successes in the Muslim world.

l - Counter Radical Islamic Media = Counter Al Jazeera and like Radical Islamic media….without appearing to do so.

m - Reestablish funding for cultural outreach programs cut following end of “Cold War.”

n - Give voice to moderate Islamic leaders (indirectly).

o - Support Programs Dedicated to Providing Educational Reform in Threatened Countries. (The official Saudi newspaper, Ain Al-Yaqeen, described royal expenditures on “education” as “astronomical.” (Mar 2002) They built 1500 mosques, 202 colleges, and 2000 Muslim schools. These were established throughout non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia, and Asia. None in the Middle East.)

p - Governments with strong governmental oversight over the education of their young must be rewarded; likewise those that do not provide such oversight must be punished.

q - AT HOME = Constitutional / Legal Review of activities surrounding fundamentalist religions that pose a domestic threat, – we face a new threat and our legal system is ill equipped to handle it. (Many Americans would rather recognize their freedom to preach hate a spit venom above protecting their own asses from the repercussions of it.)


More problems in the MENA Region....

- The populations within the next 25 years…
Egypt’s population will increase by 38%
Jordan’s by 67%
Syria’s by 58%
Saudi Arabia’s by 94%
Pakistan’s by 69%, and
Israel’s by 39%

- Decreasing Fresh Water Supplies: MENA region faces precipitous decrease in per capita fresh water supply.

- Economic doldrums / disaster: Regional unemployment for ages 15-35 = 40%…and growing. ….mostly males….who can’t afford to get married……...

- No known solutions to these problems, save one = Jihad.

Only democracies have shown agility to deal with such problems. In the absence of answers victims will look for scapegoats. Radical Islamic clerics provide the scapegoat for the problems facing the Arab/Islamic world. "Their problems are the fault of the West, specifically the US." (How many of you out there feed into their blame game?) Either we find a way to support the affected countries in finding their own solutions to these problems or our sons and daughters will be fighting another, protracted fight.
 
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If Osama is killed, wouldn't that make him a martyr? Sure, he'll be dead, but it might convince others to take his place, and more to join his 'jihad' against the West. And if he isn't killed, then America is losing face. Catch-22...
 
Mark O'Neill said:
If Osama is killed, wouldn't that make him a martyr? Sure, he'll be dead, but it might convince others to take his place, and more to join his 'jihad' against the West. And if he isn't killed, then America is losing face. Catch-22...


Bin Ladden is what we call a living "martyr." He is seen as a hero to the Radical Islam world. People have said that by killing him, we only leave a void for promotions - he will be replaced. Although this is true, Bin Ladden is more of a name and a face for Radical Islam than an immediate leader anymore. He is "living" proof that one can deliver devastating blows to the "Great Satan" and live to revel in it. Like so many of his kind, once he is gone, he will be just a name. (There is a reason the hierarchy of Al-Queda remind the world that he is still alive from time to time.) Khomeini brutalized Islam in Iran and the Muslim populations know it. Like wise for Bin-Ladden.

We've deconstructed their ability to wage 20th century war. We'll be able to take them back to the 19th century but they will still have strength of will. Part of the problem is that the hard-core killers, the Arab religious mercenaries, bin Laden's foreign legion, and the hard-core terrorists have no place else to go. They will fight to the end. This is a war of attrition. Bin Ladden must be killed.
 
Mark O'Neill said:
If Osama is killed, wouldn't that make him a martyr? Sure, he'll be dead, but it might convince others to take his place, and more to join his 'jihad' against the West. And if he isn't killed, then America is losing face. Catch-22...

Not an unsolvable catct-22. Kill him. Kill the replacements.

Read GS's post, he said this a lot better than I did.
 
tryreading said:
Not an unsolvable catct-22. Kill him. Kill the replacements.

Read GS's post, he said this a lot better than I did.
and keep killing them until they are eradicated. There will be no truce. There will only be a winner and a loser.
 
GySgt said:
j - Resolve Israeli / Palestinian

How? The wall looks like the best idea so far. Lock it down long enough for the old to die and the young not know hate. Generations. 50 years at least.

Or how about the US pour money and resources into infrastructure and industry and farming for the Palestinians? Make them prosperous and self sufficient. Pour billions into their nation to make it a paradise that they can call their own and forget about wanting to take what the Jews have built. Pay them well to build for themselves. pay them to build their own homes and Mosques. Just thought of that. Where's Gandhi, I going to go tell him this.
 
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