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Bin Laden offers truce

KCConservative said:
Anyone who thinks OBL is offering a truce is crazier than he is.

Don't make the mistake of calling him crazy, evil yes, crazy no. It's human nature I guess to label evil men as maniacs as it distances them from the rest of us. But he is just a man like us.

Most serial killers are not crazy or insane as depeicted in movies. Most of them know exactly what they are doing. Bin Laden knows exactly what he is doing.
 
GarzaUK said:
Don't make the mistake of calling him crazy, evil yes, crazy no. It's human nature I guess to label evil men as maniacs as it distances them from the rest of us. But he is just a man like us.

Most serial killers are not crazy or insane as depeicted in movies. Most of them know exactly what they are doing. Bin Laden knows exactly what he is doing.
I made no mistake. I meant what I said.
 
GarzaUK said:
Just because you mean what you said, doesn't make it correct. ;)
Is this a hair you really want to split? :roll:
 
I think he is crazy.

Crazy, but not entirely irrational. Obviously he's capable of well organized thought and complex human interaction. Don't make him right in the head though.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
I think he is crazy.

Crazy, but not entirely irrational. Obviously he's capable of well organized thought and complex human interaction. Don't make him right in the head though.

Why exactly is bin Laden crazy??
 
GarzaUK said:
Don't make the mistake of calling him crazy, evil yes, crazy no. It's human nature I guess to label evil men as maniacs as it distances them from the rest of us. But he is just a man like us.

Most serial killers are not crazy or insane as depeicted in movies. Most of them know exactly what they are doing. Bin Laden knows exactly what he is doing.


I don't know about "crazy," but he definately is unbalanced and without concrete base.

There are two types of terrorists. The "practical" and the "apocalyptic." The practical terrorist may be phsycologically unbalanced, but he does not disregard the value of human life entirely. A practical terrorist does not want to die: they want to change the world, not destroy it. His or her concerns are external, they have to do with the plight of his or her people, real or imagined. He may commit grand gestures in frustration or desperation, but he continues to see himself as the representative of an earthly agenda, not as a divine missionary. His hellish counterpart, the apocalyptic terrorist is mentally divorced from our world and it's values. The apocalyptic terrorist is different: he has internal rather than external discontents. This terrorist is unhappy with himself and blames others for his misery. The practical terrorist has dreams, but the apocalyptic is lost in a nightmare. Practical terrorists may see acts of retribution as a tactical means, but apocalyptic terrorists view themselves tools of a divine and uncomprimising retribution against unbelievers. The terrorists "martyrs" of 9/11 will forever be remembered by Islamic historians and by generations of Muslim children as heroes in the struggle for true religion and justice. This makes it all the more vital that we kill Osama Bin Laden, destroy Al-Queda and the Taliban, and any other government that would support these types of organizations. If Bin-Laden "appears" to be alive to thumb his nose at an "impotent superpower", he will attract legions of other Muslims support and sympathizers. He is an apocalyptic terrorist of the worst kind and his superficial agenda of deposing the Saudi government and expelling U.S. troops from the Middle East, is nothing compared to his compulsion to slaughter and destroy.

Although his vision is closer to the grimmest passages of Revelation than to anything in the Koran, Osama has been able to convince countless Muslims that his vision is of the purist and proudest Islamic form. This should be a huge warning flag to the west about the spiritual crisis in the Middle East. This battle is being fought within the realms of the emotions and soul, not of the intelligent. We face a situation that is so perverse that it is as if tens of millions of frustrated Christians decided that Kali, the Hindu Goddess of death and destruction, embodies the true teachings of Jesus Christ. One cannot have much sympathy with Osama bin Laden, whose vision of a vengeful god, thirsty for infidel blood, is utter blasphemy. Nor could any decent human being excuse the acts of terror committed by his followers, or by Palestinian suicide bombers or by any of the morally crippled youths who murder in the name of their religion.

Preventing as many attacks as we can, killing or capturing terrorists, destroying terrorist organizations - are essential goals, but they focus on surface tumors while ignoring the cancer beneath. The security environment will improve as Osama and his most virulent supporters are killed. Eliminating terrorist operatives, masterminds and supportive dictators (Saddam) brings vital results. But we will never reduce Islamic terrorism to nuisance level unless we address the greater evil behind the deadly strikes. It is possible to recognize that the majority of the lower-rank terrorists whose lives their overlords throw away so callously have been set up psychologically by the corruption and hopelessness of their societies - and those societies have been wrecked by Arabs and other Muslims to whom we cling as partners and whom we even imagine to be our friends. For what I know about Bin-Laden and for all the blood on his hands, Osama has higher ethical standards than our Arab "friends", despite the fact that they created him.
 
^^^^^^^

That would make Bin Laden a seducer of people not mentally imbalanced. He uses his lowly subjects to their bidding, even suicide. Bin Laden wouldn't commit suicide (unless he was cornered). Bin Laden believes in war and an objective and he doesn't care who he kills to get those objectives.
Quite like the Pakistan, sorry thread in the Polls sections. I'm not naming names but there are people who did not give sympathy to the innocents who died in the blast.

Bin Laden is not crazy, he is and evil man corrupting the Islamic youth to do his bidding for his objectives.

You said of the apocalyptic terrorist and how is unhappy with himself. But maybe he is unhappy because his wife and children were accidentally killed by Americans. I don't know about you but if someone or some army killed my children I would be up in arms against them.
 
aps said:
How is he losing? He killed more than 3000 people on September 11th and he has killed at least 1000 more Americans since we have been in Iraq. I'm sure he's pretty proud of himself right now.


You have to look at things from the big picture.

When people say that by killing terrorists we are only creating more terrorists, they are utterly wrong. This is sophomoric nonsense. There can be no doubt that Al-Queda recruitment has gone up (how can it not), but we did not create these “soldiers for Allah.” They are products of a failing civilization and merely needed a nudge to get them in line. The truth of the matter is, that with every new “imagined” success that the terrorist have in so many different countries, they actually are creating enemies where before there were bystanders. The surest way to swell the ranks of terror is to follow the approach we did in the decade before 9/11 and do nothing of substance. Success breeds success. Everybody loves a winner. The cliches exist because they’re true. Al-Qaeda and related terrorist groups separated because they were viewed in the Muslim world as standing up to the West successfully and handing the Great Satan America embarrassing defeats with impunity. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond. Far worse than fighting such a war of attrition aggressively is to pretend you’re not in one while your enemy keeps on killing you. It is not a matter of whether attrition is good or bad. It’s necessary and it is world wide.

- 9/11 was not a success for them. It was a dire mistake that awoke many and it was the most obvious example to date of how an “apocalyptic terrorist” always brings about his own demise. There are two different types of terrorist. The “Apocalyptic” always over reaches and destroys himself in the process.

- The London bombings was to be an example of what allying with America will get you, but it backfired. Though there was a body count, Islamic leadership in the UK is now paying for their product and reeling from the consequences. Islamic leadership who dabbled in the "Radical arts" are now scrutinized and watched. They no longer have the freedoms to preach hate as they did before the attacks and therefore, the youth are not having it forced down their throats as freely as it was.

- The Bali bombings, while perceived by the world as a terrorist success, has marked the turning of the tide against terrorism in Indonesia. The terrorists in Indonesia, of which there are two distinct separate groups, bit off the hand that appeased them. Passivity in Indonesia has encouraged the extremists to believe that they could act with impunity. Now the terrorists have overreached, as their comrades did in New York and Washington. The crimes they committed on Bali were so ferocious that they cannot be denied or explained away. More importantly, they were a severe embarrassment for the government and the country. Part of a desperate, world-wide attempt by Islamic terrorists to resume the offensive after the beating they've taken for the past year, these bombings brought global terrorism on a grand scale to Indonesia and it gave the agencies, that have been so far subdued by the appeasing government because they didn’t wish to antagonize them, a reason to act.

- After the attacks in Jordan, angry Jordanians rallied outside one of three U.S.-based hotels attacked by suicide bombers, shouting, "Burn in hell, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Death to Al-Zarqawi!” Citizens have stated that "they used to support Al-Queda because they were fighting their enemy (America and Israel), but since they started killing Muslims.....none of this makes sense." The Jordanians are now a new public enemy to them. The current monarchy, King Abdullah II is pushing more than ever for his country to become more democratic and modern. He has publicly stated his concerns and his beliefs that the Middle East must change into a progressive society.

After suffering devastating losses around the world, Islamic terror networks are attempting to return to the offensive, to prove they are still viable. Their targets, throughout the decade before 9/11, were on military installations and personnel. The targets they have recently struck illuminate their weakness and rage, not an intelligent global strategy. Far from striking major governmental or military targets, the terrorists have been reduced to sloven assassinations and, now, the calculated mass murder of young people. With Jordan, once again, the terrorists have chosen targets that strengthen the hands of their enemies.

For the human devils who planned the slaughters and carry out the attacks, these truly are suicide attacks.
 
In "Osama's letter to America" his requirements were that we pull troops out of Saudi Arabia and withdraw support for Israel. To me this recent round of bullshit says two things.

1.He's lost the international front. His goals as laid out in his letter are beyond his ability to meet. Strategic withdraw. He now seeks a battle he has, as he sees it, the ability to win. Local. Maybe he now sees the Islamic fervor of world domination diminished because they cannot defeat America world wide. In truth the battle goes not well for them. They have lost Afghanistan and Iraq swiftly becomes democratic. So now he speaks to Muslims with a goal they can wrap their heads around. Our withdraw from nations with large Muslim populations. His world is shrinking. Retreat and fortify. Recapture lost ground. Next he may just ask us to leave him and his donkey cart alone.

2.He is pandering to the left of this country to increase pressure on Washington to get out of those two countries. Just like public pressure swayed Washington to pull out of Nam. The terrorists have always sought to use our very freedom against us. I don't see how this is any diferent. He's giving the left in this country the ability to say, "see, the nice man just wants us out of other countries." Many of you will fall for it, I'm sure. And if we were to pull out he'll swiftly try to reverse democracy there and reestablish his power base.

All in all, strategically speaking, keeping in mind his goal of looking for Muslim support, a good ploy this. The man is not insane.

Do you really think if we were to pull out he will give up on Israel?
 
GarzaUK said:
^^^^^^^

That would make Bin Laden a seducer of people not mentally imbalanced. He uses his lowly subjects to their bidding, even suicide. Bin Laden wouldn't commit suicide (unless he was cornered). Bin Laden believes in war and an objective and he doesn't care who he kills to get those objectives.
Quite like the Pakistan, sorry thread in the Polls sections. I'm not naming names but there are people who did not give sympathy to the innocents who died in the blast.

Bin Laden is not crazy, he is and evil man corrupting the Islamic youth to do his bidding for his objectives.

You said of the apocalyptic terrorist and how is unhappy with himself. But maybe he is unhappy because his wife and children were accidentally killed by Americans. I don't know about you but if someone or some army killed my children I would be up in arms against them.

An individual can be unbalanced and not be crazy. You missed my point.

That's because not everyone agrees with their "innocence." Like I have said...terrorists surround themselves with people that support them.

....and why was his family killed? I don't know.....he wrecks thousands of families and we are supposed to cry over his? Again, Like I have said, If they use their neighbors as shields, it is the terrorists who are to blame should civilians die. If they attempt to use their families as cover, they will be responsible for the deaths of their own loved ones. The world must learn that, when civilians allow terrorists to use them, the civilians become legitimate military targets. This is the same thing with regards to terrorists using mosques and hospitals as a base of operations. We cannot allow them to use our moral "weaknesses" as their strengths.
 
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GySgt said:
- 9/11 was not a success for them. It was a dire mistake that awoke many and it was the most obvious example to date of how an “apocalyptic terrorist” always brings about his own demise.

Osama before 9/11 thought America did not have the stomach for the war we now prosecute. His words. Strategic error on his part.

Many that awoke quickly hit the snooze buttton. Way back Bush said he will "stay the course". He knew then how many would quickly forget. But still Osama misread how many will be awake until this thing is done.
 
teacher said:
In "Osama's letter to America" his requirements were that we pull troops out of Saudi Arabia and withdraw support for Israel. To me this recent round of bullshit says two things.

1.He's lost the international front. His goals as laid out in his letter are beyond his ability to meet. Strategic withdraw. He now seeks a battle he has, as he sees it, the ability to win. Local. Maybe he now sees the Islamic fervor of world domination diminished because they cannot defeat America world wide. In truth the battle goes not well for them. They have lost Afghanistan and Iraq swiftly becomes democratic. So now he speaks to Muslims with a goal they can wrap their heads around. Our withdraw from nations with large Muslim populations. His world is shrinking. Retreat and fortify. Recapture lost ground. Next he may just ask us to leave him and his donkey cart alone.

2.He is pandering to the left of this country to increase pressure on Washington to get out of those two countries. Just like public pressure swayed Washington to pull out of Nam. The terrorists have always sought to use our very freedom against us. I don't see how this is any diferent. He's giving the left in this country the ability to say, "see, the nice man just wants us out of other countries." Many of you will fall for it, I'm sure. And if we were to pull out he'll swiftly try to reverse democracy there and reestablish his power base.

All in all, strategically speaking, keeping in mind his goal of looking for Muslim support, a good ploy this. The man is not insane.

Do you really think if we were to pull out he will give up on Israel?

I think he is doing the entire opposite. I think he is try to entice the US. I truely believe death does not scare this man, he thinks himself holy man, God's soldier to protect the Arab world from the infidel control of his homeland.
He wants war, not peace. Hitler was the same way.
 
teacher said:
Osama before 9/11 thought America did not have the stomach for the war we now prosecute. His words. Strategic error on his part.

Many that awoke quickly hit the snooze buttton. Way back Bush said he will "stay the course". He knew then how many would quickly forget. But still Osama misread how many will be awake until this thing is done.


With everyone's focus solely on Iraq, they are completely missing the huge impact we are having against current terrorists organizations and their networks all over the world. Everyone thinks that the next President will make all of this go away, but I guarantee he doesn't. There's no way that once he is privy to all that is going on, he won't simply turn his back on it like people want.

We haven't gotten anywhere near the level we have to be at with regards to the IO war. This is where we are going to "roll back" the Radical Islamic spread within the Middle Eastern civilization. Ultimately, it isn't about current terrorists. It's too late for them. We have to be focused on future generations.
 
GarzaUK said:
I think he is doing the entire opposite. I think he is try to entice the US. I truely believe death does not scare this man, he thinks himself holy man, God's soldier to protect the Arab world from the infidel control of his homeland.
He wants war, not peace. Hitler was the same way.


It appears to me like this message is merely meant to further divide the western world. The Vietnam Conflict was a lesson to all our enemies - to defeat the American military, one only has to divide their citizens. What is offerred up as a sacrifice for this "truce" is something we would never do and they know it. Why then would they even ask? You are correct.

While most Islamic terrorism is culturally reactionary, another aspect of it is an impulse for change perverted by hopelessness. And terrorism is, finally, a brutal annoyance, but not a threat to America's survival, despite the grim events of 11 September. Osama bin Laden and his ilk may kill thousands of Americans through flamboyant terrorist acts, but their deeds reflect tormented desperation and fear, not confidence or any positive capability. Terrorists may be able to destroy, but they cannot build, either a skyscraper or a successful state. Destruction is the only thing of which they remain capable, and destruction is their true god. These men seek annihilation, not only ours, but their own. No entrances are left open to them, only the possibility of a dramatic exit. They are failed men from failed states in a failing civilization. Claiming to represent the oppressed (but enraged by the "liberal" behavior of most Palestinians), fundamentalist terrorists of so hardened a temper would not be contented, but only further inflamed, by any peace settlement that did not inaugurate their version of the Kingdom of God on earth. They are not fighting for a just peace, but for their peace--and even if they attained that peace, they would desire another. They are, in every sense, lost souls, the irredeemable. Their savagery is not a result of the failure of any peace process, but a reaction to their own personal failures and to the failures of their entire way of life. Behind these lost souls, their are literally millions and millions of Muslims that cheer their "martyrs" on. Thanks to the miserly, selfish, and oppressing "House of Saud" this way of life is rampant throughout the region. This is why this region must change.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Still doesn't seem like 'truce' is the right word for it.


The word you may be looking for is "Hudna".

You might wish to investigate the term al-takeyya as well.
 
GySgt said:
It appears to me like this message is merely meant to further divide the western world. The Vietnam Conflict was a lesson to all our enemies - to defeat the American military, one only has to divide their citizens.

Gunny, only Americans can defeat the American military. Nobody else can.
 
GarzaUK said:
I think he is doing the entire opposite. I think he is try to entice the US.
Not really following you here. How does this statement entice the US? I would think just one of his followers shooting up an American schoolyard would be WAY more enticing. Easy enough to pull off. I think this latest demand is way less grand than his previous ones.
I truely believe death does not scare this man, he thinks himself holy man,
I don't doubt that. But yet I wonder how scared of death and how deep his faith were if he were looking into the business end of an M16.
God's soldier to protect the Arab world from the infidel control of his homeland.
The House of Saud, not us, controls his homeland. Do you think his blind hatred of all thing US blinds him to what the ruling rich Arabs are really doing? If that were so, then the House of Saud must love him.
He wants war, not peace. Hitler was the same way.
So you think he is so demented with religious fervor that he still thinks war will achieve his goals? I mean, I don't know. War has not been kind to him or his cause so far. If he still wants war then he is not a smart as I have given him credit for. From your point of view, he's not too bright. From mine, he's playing American politics and giving a strategically sound idea for Muslims to rally around, very bright indeed. I hope you're right.
 
TimmyBoy said:
Gunny, only Americans can defeat the American military. Nobody else can.


Of course, but the general American is naive to the world and it's politics. They will listen to anyone if it brings an end to something they don't understand or haven't studied. This is human nature, but it is worse for Americans, because of our freedoms.

Just think back to when Bin Ladden released his letter that "reasoned" with the American people about why 9/11 "had" to happen. How many Americans chose to apologize? Many still are.
 
GySgt said:
Of course, but the general American is naive to the world and it's politics. They will listen to anyone if it brings an end to something they don't understand or haven't studied. This is human nature, but it is worse for Americans, because of our freedoms.

Just think back to when Bin Ladden released his letter that "reasoned" with the American people about why 9/11 "had" to happen. How many Americans chose to apologize? Many still are.

Vietnam was a good example where perception mattered more than truth. The Tet Offensive was an overwhelming military defeat for the VC. After such an offensive, the VC guerrillas were virtually destroyed and could not operate near the level they could before. The major battles were won by the US military, but exaggerated news reports made it seem that the US was losing due to some guerrilla attacks that newscasters would catch or a spectuclar attack that made headlines but was nevertheless overwhelming crushed by the US military. It seems perception matters more than the truth at times. The US military was not defeated militarily by the North Vietnamese or VC. Many North Vietnamese and VC attacks were geared towards making big headlines to get the American people to demand US troops to come home. Whether it was right for the US to go into Vietnam or not is debatable, though, I feel that it did help to stop the spread of communism. The perception of the Iraq invasion was that it was invaded over economic and power interests under the pretext of fighting terrorism. And the fact that later on, their was no WMD certainly didn't help to build a favorable perception. Perception sure does play an important role.
 
M14 Shooter said:
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/19/D8F7R0601.html

Assuming this is legitimate -- do you suppose he's offering this truce because he thinks he's winning or losing the war against terrorism?

Either because he thinks he is losing (winners don't ask for truce's and he just took a big hit) or he thinks we are really really really stupid.
 
teacher said:
Not really following you here. How does this statement entice the US? I would think just one of his followers shooting up an American schoolyard would be WAY more enticing. Easy enough to pull off. I think this latest demand is way less grand than his previous ones.

Offering a truce is a sign of weakness. Why do you think Al-Quieda would show a sign of weakness after no provocation at all? I truely don't think it is because they are cornered some how. These people would rather die than surrender. Bin Laden is acting feigned weakness to make the US more confident that they are winning the war causing the US to push more further for victory. Military success was never one of the aims of Bin Laden.
teacher said:
I don't doubt that. But yet I wonder how scared of death and how deep his faith were if he were looking into the business end of an M16.

Not much I think. He believes paradise with virgins await him. Pretty sweet afterlife.
teacher said:
The House of Saud, not us, controls his homeland. Do you think his blind hatred of all thing US blinds him to what the ruling rich Arabs are really doing? If that were so, then the House of Saud must love him.

Well he hates the House of Saud as they are allies with the US, plus the US has bases in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. There is no area that the US takes most attention to than the ME.
teacher said:
So you think he is so demented with religious fervor that he still thinks war will achieve his goals? I mean, I don't know. War has not been kind to him or his cause so far. If he still wants war then he is not a smart as I have given him credit for. From your point of view, he's not too bright. From mine, he's playing American politics and giving a strategically sound idea for Muslims to rally around, very bright indeed. I hope you're right.

Like I said he does not seek to win militarily, he wants to provoke and all out war between Muslim nations and the West - this is true, the final battle, Armageddon as Christains call it.
Bin Laden has often said it is impossible to defeat the Americans by force, you hit them where it hurts - their wallets, to bankrupt them. WTC was hit as it represented American wealth. Look how many billions in debt the US is and it will get worse once the baby boom generation starts to retire.
 
Binary_Digit said:
"there are operations that need preparations, and you will see them" A truce amid threats. Of course it's because al'Qaeda is and has been losing, but he's keeping up the threats to save face.

He'd love for us to be stupid enough to make a deal. He's probably scared out of his shorts and he wants to save his own skin. So much for dying for your cause.
 
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