• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Biggest Gaza convoy leaves London

The International Court of Justice has reached no such judgment. There is no binding decision against Israel that its maritime blockade is illegal. The opinion you cited above is not a binding decision nor does it have any judicial effect.

What leads to you to believe the World Court would find the blockade legal?

Israel, as a member state of the UN, must "agree, accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council". This includes United Nations Security Council Resolution 1860 - Wikisource

2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment;


Has Israel complied with this resolution? No.
 
2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment.
Doesn't say that goods destined for Gaza can't be inspected. Egypt also insists on this right.
 
What leads to you to believe the World Court would find the blockade legal?

Israel, as a member state of the UN, must "agree, accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council". This includes United Nations Security Council Resolution 1860 - Wikisource

2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment;


Has Israel complied with this resolution? No.

Humanitarian goods are permitted. Inspections are allowed. Dual use or military goods can be blocked. No ICJ case is likely.
 
The International Court of Justice has reached no such judgment. There is no binding decision against Israel that its maritime blockade is illegal. The opinion you cited above is not a binding decision nor does it have any judicial effect.

Let us just analyse what you have said.

North Korea starts a campaign of ethnic cleansing against their own population. Everybody on the planet knows that this is illegal because international law is clear on this matter.. but according to you, it isn't illegal because the World Court haven't made a ruling? This is a horrible way to twist the realities of the situation.

The settlements have always been illegal, but it took the World Court nearly 40 years to decide so. Are you saying they were legal up until then?

This type of distorted logic you have applied does not even nearly stand up.

The blockade is illegal simply because Israel are still the occupiers of Gaza. International law is clear on this matter (the occupation) there is even precedent in history, regarding the laws on this matter.
 
Last edited:
The revisionist UNGA resolution attempts to rewrite the history of colonialism. It was nothing but the kind of shrill screed that increasingly arose in what had become a radicalized body. Of course, where serious oppression was concerned at the time e.g., in Eastern Europe, the UNGA was mute. The desire to harrass Israel, not a desire for human rights or self-determination, drove that body.

Properly, both because it is non-binding and because of its politicized nature, Israel has given that resolution little heed. No Israeli leader cites it among the resolutions that Israel seeks to use as a framework for helping guide a peace agreement.

Thanks for not offering anything to prove me wrong, instead you have opted to go with the 'they're wrong because I said so' approach, much like the Israeli government has done with every international law they have broken and at times even re-written.
 
Let us just analyse what you have said.

North Korea starts a campaign of ethnic cleansing against their own population. Everybody on the planet knows that this is illegal because international law is clear on this matter.. but according to you, it isn't illegal because the World Court haven't made a ruling? This is a horrible way to twist the realities of the situation...

The above provides a clear example of the distorted lens that is applied repeatedly to try to demonize Israel, try to deny Israel a right of self-defense, and to try to impose on Israel conditions no sovereign state could or should accept.

Four points:

1. The North Korean famine has no relevance whatsoever to Middle Eastern affairs. Furthermore, the famine that results from internal repression coupled with natural factors is not "ethnic cleansing." Claims toward that end illustrate nothing more than a creative but wholly wrong view of what amounts to ethnic cleansing. Moreover, claims toward that end detract from the very real cases where ethnic cleansing actually occurs. But the purpose of the elaborate but wrong definition of ethnic cleansing is aimed at demonizing Israel, not civilian protections for ethnic minorities.

2. International law seeks to safeguard the flow of purely humanitarian aid. Dual-use or military assistance is not protected.

3. International law allows for reasonable enforcement. Hence, international law does not bar a nation from conducting inspections.

4. The Laws of War do not prohibit blockades. Rules concerning civilian protections apply, but blockades are not barred.

In sum, the blockade is legal and it is a highly appropriate response in self-defense to reduce the flow of weapons into the Gaza Strip that had been used in indiscriminately bombarding civilian centers in Israel (a violation of the Laws of War). Loud claims to the contrary that have no binding impact e.g., the UNHRC's sanctioned report, are irrelevant except for making bad political theater and complicating prospects for peace (from further undermining trust, incentives for conciliation, etc.).
 
The above provides a clear example of the distorted lens that is applied repeatedly to try to demonize Israel, try to deny Israel a right of self-defense, and to try to impose on Israel conditions no sovereign state could or should accept.

Four points:

1. The North Korean famine has no relevance whatsoever to Middle Eastern affairs. Furthermore, the famine that results from internal repression coupled with natural factors is not "ethnic cleansing." Claims toward that end illustrate nothing more than a creative but wholly wrong view of what amounts to ethnic cleansing. Moreover, claims toward that end detract from the very real cases where ethnic cleansing actually occurs. But the purpose of the elaborate but wrong definition of ethnic cleansing is aimed at demonizing Israel, not civilian protections for ethnic minorities.

2. International law seeks to safeguard the flow of purely humanitarian aid. Dual-use or military assistance is not protected.

3. International law allows for reasonable enforcement. Hence, international law does not bar a nation from conducting inspections.

4. The Laws of War do not prohibit blockades. Rules concerning civilian protections apply, but blockades are not barred.

In sum, the blockade is legal and it is a highly appropriate response in self-defense to reduce the flow of weapons into the Gaza Strip that had been used in indiscriminately bombarding civilian centers in Israel (a violation of the Laws of War). Loud claims to the contrary that have no binding impact e.g., the UNHRC's sanctioned report, are irrelevant except for making bad political theater and complicating prospects for peace (from further undermining trust, incentives for conciliation, etc.).

1. I was not trying to demonise Israel, I was stating the facts of a matter that have been constantly twisted and distorted by Israe, and I will go in to the details of the blockade below. But I should mention that when a country occupies another, there is not case for self defence. Self defence is so obviously the position of the people occupied and targeted that it is borderline ridiculous for you to consistently try to reverse cause and effect. No Occupation, no rockets. Hamas have even stated this.

2. I wasn't referring to any current situation. I created a hypothetical and rather obvious situation designed to show you that just because the high court hasn't declared something illegal, doesn't mean that it isn't so. I wasn't referring to any famine or anything at all currently happening (I meant if they physically started killing their own population, guns, etc.). A country can do something that is clearly illegal without the World Court having to make a decision. Please stop trying to claim that something is legal just because the World Court hasn't sat down and decided, which if and when it does happen, will be dismissed out of hand by Israel and her supporters anyway. I take it, going by your stance, that you also accept, due to the decision by the World Court in 2004, that all the settlements are also illegal?

3. The aid was checked and verified by the UN and other organisations and the info passed on to Israel. This was more transparent than it needed to be. Stopping the Flotilla had nothing to do with the pretense used of 'stopping the flow of arms'. And clearly, neither does the blockade itself. It was designed to punish the Gazans for voting for Hamas. Goldstone already laid this out clearly, as has every human rights organisation I know of, even the Red Cross who usually stay rather silent on most matters. Not to mention this law only applies if a blockade is deemed legal, Israel's blockade is not.


4. The rest of your points are based on the assumption that this is a legal blockade, when it clearly is not. I'll clarify.

First, we have to understand that Gaza is still occupied. This is clearly the case as I will demonstrate:

B. Israel Will Remain the Occupying Power of the Gaza Strip so long as Israel Retains
the Ability to Exercise Authority over the Strip

In The Hostages Case, the Nuremburg Tribunal expounded upon The Hague Regulations’ basic definition of occupation in order to ascertain when occupation ends.[34] It held that “[t]he test for application of the legal regime of occupation is not whether the occupying power fails to exercise effective control over the territory, but whether it has the ability to exercise such power.”[35] In that case, the Tribunal had to decide whether Germany’s occupation of Greece and Yugoslavia had ended when Germany had ceded de facto control to non-German forces of certain territories. Even though Germany did not actually control those areas, the Tribunal held that Germany indeed remained the “occupying power”—both in Greece and Yugoslavia generally and in the territories to which it had ceded control—since it could have reentered and controlled those territories at will.

Similarly, Israel will retain ultimate authority over Gaza and to a much greater degree than Germany in The Hostages Case: The Israeli military expressly reserves itself the right to enter the Gaza Strip at will. Further, Israel will not just retain the ability to exercise control over Gaza, but it will also retain effective control over Gaza’s borders, air and sea space, overall security, and international relations.
Moreover, even if Israel should devolve some of its duties to third parties—either as co-occupying powers or as designees—Israel will remain an occupying power so long as it retains the ability to effectively control the Gaza Strip at will, whether with Israel’s own troops or those of its agents or partners.

"The Israeli 'Disengagement' Plan: Gaza Still Occupied" - Report by PLO Negotiations Affairs Dept./Non-UN document (1 September 2005)

As you can clearly see from the bold, Gaza fits the criteria. Not only does it fit the criteria of the case with Germany, the precedent existing in law (along with the existing law in which that earlier decision was made), but as the part of text after the bold goes on to demonstrate, the case with Gaza goes above and beyond the case with Germany, making the claim of their being no occupation far weaker.

If that weren't enough, we have this:

64. The Mission agrees with the assessment presented in the Goldstone Report as
follows:
Given the specific geopolitical configuration of the Gaza Strip, the powers that Israel
exercises from the borders enable it to determine the conditions of life within the
Gaza Strip. Israel controls the border crossings (including to a significant degree the
Rafah crossing to Egypt, under the terms of the Agreement on Movement and
Access) and decides what and who gets in or out of the Gaza Strip. It also controls
the territorial sea adjacent to the Gaza Strip and has declared a virtual blockade and
limits to the fishing zone, thereby regulating economic activity in that zone. It also
keeps complete control of the airspace of the Gaza Strip, inter alia, through
continuous surveillance by aircraft and unmanned aviation vehicles (UAVs) or
drones. It makes military incursions and from time to time hit targets within the
Gaza Strip. No-go areas are declared within the Gaza Strip near the border where
Israeli settlements used to be and enforced by the Israeli armed forces. Furthermore,
Israel regulates the local monetary market based on the Israeli currency (the new
sheqel) and controls taxes and custom duties.53

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf

Which is taken from the recent investigation and taken from Goldstone's assessement. Both of the judges involved here are of the highest authority, are recognised internationally as experts and who's decisions are so solid that they cannot even be honestly debated.

But here is another example to show that Gaza is still occupied, if it were ever needed (which it isn't):

Israel claims under Art 6 GCIV its obligations as an occupying power terminate 1 year after the close of military operations. The problem with this claim, aside of the fact that Israel claims at the same time that it is engaged in a conflict with Hamas, is that such military operations have not closed. What is a blockade if not a military operation? The effective military control which Israel exercises of Gazan airspace and territorial waters, as well as over all its land border except that with Egypt, where Israeli control is exercised indirectly through an agreement with Egypt, makes the claim that occupation has ended extremely difficult to defend. The UN regards Israel as the occupying power of Gaza, as is easily deduced from the continued operation of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs–occupied Palestinian territory. If Israel claims that it is not an occupying power, that it exercises no effective control over Gaza, and that military operations have closed, it cannot at the same time claim that a conflict exists against Hamas, that a naval blockade is in place against Gaza, that cement may not go into Gaza, and that such provisions are an exercise of the right to self-defence of Art 51 UNC. These things are incompatible.

A Juridical Analysis of the Flotilla Incident

So as we can clearly see, there can be no doubt as to whether or not Gaza is still occupied. If the law wasn't enough in itself, the fact that the UN and the vast majority of the international community have failed to recognise Israel's weak claim that they do not occupy Gaza anymore, should surely be the icing on the cake.

The UN, Human Rights Watch and many other international bodies and NGOs consider Israel to be the occupying power of the Gaza Strip as Israel controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, and does not allow the movement or goods in or out of Gaza by air or sea.

Gaza Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now that there can be no doubt as to the status of the occupation of Gaza, we can move on to the blockade and demonstrate why the blockade itself is illegal:
 
(Continued)

Blockade
51. Under the laws of armed conflict, a blockade is the prohibition of all commerce with
a defined enemy coastline. A belligerent who has established a lawful blockade is entitled
to enforce that blockade on the high seas.41 A blockade must satisfy a number of legal
requirements, including: notification, effective and impartial enforcement and
proportionality.42 In particular a blockade is illegal if:
(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other
objects essential for its survival; or
(B) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in
relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.43
52. A blockade may not continue to be enforced where it inflicts disproportionate
damage on the civilian population. The usual meaning of “damage to the civilian
population” in LOAC refers to deaths, injuries and property damage. Here the damage may
be thought of as the destruction of the civilian economy and prevention of reconstruction of
past damage. One might also note, insofar as many in Gaza face a shortage of food or the
means to buy it, that the ordinary meaning of “starvation” under LOAC is simply to cause
hunger.44
53. In evaluating the evidence submitted to the Mission, including by the Office for the
Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in the occupied Palestinian territory, confirming the
severe humanitarian situation in Gaza, the destruction of the economy and the prevention of
reconstruction (as detailed above), the Mission is satisfied that the blockade was inflicting
disproportionate damage upon the civilian population in the Gaza strip and as such the
interception could not be justified and therefore has to be considered illegal.
54. Moreover, the Mission emphasizes that according to article 33 of the Fourth Geneva
Convention, collective punishment of civilians under occupation is prohibited. “No
protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed.
Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism, are
prohibited.” The Mission considers that one of the principal motives behind the imposition
of the blockade was a desire to punish the people of the Gaza Strip for having elected
Hamas. The combination of this motive and the effect of the restrictions on the Gaza Strip
leave no doubt that Israel’s actions and policies amount to collective punishment as defined
by international law. In this connection, the Mission supports the findings of the Special
Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since
1967, Richard Falk,45 the report of the United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza
Conflict46 and most recently the ICRC47 that the blockade amounts to collective punishment
in violation of Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law

This is from the recent investigation (link provided above) that was, as I have already previously stated, carried out by one of the most respected authorities on international law there is on the planet. This is why these false claims have been so hard for Israel to maintain: because the people who have declared the blockade as illegal and the occupation as still being in existence are so authoritative that the claims of bias and anti-Semitism that have been thrown in their direction do not hold up in the slightest. And indeed, are simply ridiculous.

But there is yet more:

4 Blockade of Gaza

The first problem which must be studied is that which refers to the blockade of Gaza. In particular, it must be studied whether, as Israel claims, a lawful blockade of Gaza is, at present, in effect. Although international practice in the matter of blockades is, fortunately, uncommon, some rules may be deduced from existing instruments.

First off, there are some clear, undisputed, universally recognised requirements for the existence of a lawful blockade. This can be found in the San Remo Manual, which is a non-binding instrument that codified the state of international practice existing at the time of its compilation on the matter of the law applicable to armed conflicts at sea. This is part of International Humanitarian Law (hereinafter IHL) because it refers to the lawful means to wage armed conflicts. Much of the Manual bases itself on the Declaration concerning the Laws of Naval War, done in London, on February 26 , 1909. These Declaration had the purpose of clarifying existing international practice, so we can see that the problem of codification of international law is by far not sorted out and has obtained and caused problems for a long time now. Many of the norms are the same on the Declaration and the Manual, and in future all references shall be to the Manual because it is far more up-to-date. However, this fragment from the Declaration is of interest, inasmuch as it determines the existence of a long-lasting international practice–and codification–which supports a certain scope for the application of the law of naval conflicts.

CHAPTER I
BLOCKADE IN TIME OF WAR
Article 1. A blockade must not extend beyond the ports and coasts belonging to or occupied by the enemy.

The importance of that statement lies in the fact that, as a prerequisite to anything else, the blockade must a) take place in time of war, b) not extend beyond coasts belonging to or occupied by the enemy. It is clear from international practice that the reference of Ch. 1, Art. 1, must be understood to be applicable within the scope of an international conflict.

Since international practice is being invoked, perhaps the sceptical reader will benefit from a historical reference in this regard. The following fragment refers to the American Civil War, and the implications a blockade entailed to its internationality or lack thereof.

The first crisis occurred when England issued a proclamation of neutrality, which rested upon the logic of the Union’s declared blockade. According to English reasoning, although Lincoln proclaimed the rebels to be insurrectionists and thus not recognizable under international law as a belligerent power engaged in war, his declared blockade was an act of war, which would have to be conducted against a sovereign state. Thus Lincoln had actually granted belligerency status to the Confederacy and thereby forced foreign powers to do the same. By proclaiming neutrality, England afforded the Confederacy the status of a belligerent power. Other European nations followed England’s lead. Belligerency status gave the Confederacy the right, according to international law (signed by European nations after the Crimean War in 1856), to contract loans and to purchase arms from neutral nations. It also allowed England to provide safe harbors for both Union and Confederate warships and merchant vessels, to build blockade runners and warships for the Confederacy, and to formally debate in Parliament the merits of active intervention.

Likewise, the Manual declares a similar scope for its norms, implying international practice and law has not significantly changed in this regard since the Declaration.

I suggest to continue reading: A Juridical Analysis of the Flotilla Incident

As we can see, there is not a leg to stand on when trying to defend any of your previous claims.

Gaza is occupied, the blockade is illegal and this has been decided by some of the highest authorities on international law that are alive today. To continue to make your truly baseless claims when I have presented the evidence (I have shown this in other thread, it has not been addressed and yet people keep trying to claim the same falsities are true) to show you are blatantly wrong, is not a form of debate that I enjoy. Not recognising facts, in reality, is not a form of debate at all.
 
Back
Top Bottom