Biden rails against access to assault weapons after recent spate of shootings

[Rucker61]

Sorry, but the right to own any and all firearms does not actually exist.

The right to own any bearable arm in common use for lawful does, however.

 

[Helix]

If you cant explain it then it isnt true. This is a debate forum. Or have you forgotten where you are. You made a claim, back it up.

I submit the Republican party's descent into insanity since the mid 2000s, and I rest my case. If you have further questions, please refer to this post again.

 

[JMR]

But not for a revolver or pump shotgun?

Would using a revolver to defend myself against someone's first stand up in court?

I think not being crazy should be a requirement for any weapon, but am willing to start at automatics.

Equal force is the rule is it not?

 

[Galactic Spin]

Is it possible to post a single time without a pejorative?

What effect, in your mind, would either S.736 or H.R.1808 have?

Even if struck down, either would be part of a larger effort of gun control, of stigmatizing guns more than they are now, and of treating them more seriously than they are now.

 

[Lycanthrope]

there’s no way this Supreme Court would allow it.

The Heller decision was disastrous and must be overturned. But, there’s no way that can happen given the current makeup of SCOTUS

Which is likely why CNN didn't go apeshit with it - they knew it was dead in the water before it ever left port.

 

[Rucker61]

Assault rifles of the AR-15 and AK-47 are semi-automatic rifles.

Neither semiautomatic AR-15s or semiautomatic AK-47s are assault rifles.

Only explosive ammo explodes. A .50 cal rifle round rips and tears, it doesn't "explode". A 55 grain .223 round fired from an AR-15 at muzzle velocities approaching 3200 FPS makes a little hole going in, a slightly bigger one coming out, goes through a wall and kills someone next door.

Are you unaware of frangible ammo like the Hornady VMAX, which is available in .224 in 35, 40, 50, 53, 55 and 60 grain, and in .308 in 110 grain. The latter leaves the barrel of my .300 BO SBR at about 2200 FPS; the former factory rounds in 55 grain have a muzzle velocity of 3240 fps and will behave much more different than the 55 grain FMJ you seem to be referrinig to.

Please reread. Who said "buckshot". which when stated like that usually references 00 buck that is the equivalent of firing nine .32 caliber bullets.

I very clearly stated #8 birdshot, which NO ONE has ever stated has over penetration issues and is literally the equivalent of frangible rounds fired from handguns, though without the loss of motor control problems a very short barrel and a one handed grip presents in aiming under duress. However, if you are using a handgun for home defense frangible rounds are the way to go.

So we agree on frangible rounds.

It's much, much, better than .223 FMJ rounds but I disagree with you on this, especially when you add in the point and shoot strike accuracy of the pattern of a 12 gauge narrow choke at 21 feet in. Like I said, as the motor skills go south a "you are going to hit some part of your assailant with some portion of what you have fired is too much to not to want to take advantage of.

Once you allow your spread to reach out far enough to make it "point and shoot", you lose the effect of the shot hitting as one mass mass.

 

[VanceMack]

I know up from down on home defense. People pay me to advise them on such things. An assault rifle is an ineffective home defense weapon. Especially in urban areas.

Its projectiles move to fast, don't have enough mass to be an effective action stopper. It is very capable of penetrating body and dry wall between structures and striking people the person defending themselves had no intent of doing harm to. High powered handguns with +P rounds have many of the same problems, and add the loss of fine motor skills that comes on in heaps during physical actions undergone under duress.

That the majority of gun owners don't know the first thing about firing tunnels, weapons retention, target acquisition and weapon discharge under duress... it's a mess.

If you are "Joe Average" wanting to use a firearm to protect your home get a police riot style shotgun with a narrow choke and load up with #8 birdshot. Keep it safe with an empty chamber. Someone breaks in, point it and rack it... the sound of that round hitting home under the firing pin will usually end it right there, no need to fire... all you will see is behind and heels as they turn tail and run out of your home. If they do keep coming pull the trigger. You just have to be close. You'll hit something, and likely hit it hard enough at 21 feet in to take that someone right off their feet and down to the ground. What misses will stick in the drywall. It won't go through your wall, across the street, and kill your neighbor's kid. It won't go through the bad guy, though the wall that separates your living area from your grandma's bedroom and kill her.

It will do what you meant it to do. Regardless that you were crapping your pants as this was taking place and your fine motor skills are so far gone you couldn't sign your name that anyone could read it on a bet, that birdshot discharged from a short barrelled, 12 gauge, narrow choked, hand cannon will do precisely what you want of it, stop the bad guy from doing whatever that was putting your life at risk.

A couple of things.

1-A semiautomatic weapon does not exclusively mean ARs.
2-Thousands of people effectively use ARs for home defense every year.
3-Military and Law Enforcement use ARs in clearing buildings.
4-A large number of firearm owners are better trained than most law enforcement officers.
5_Shotguns are fine for home defense. Recommending someone grab a double barrel shotgun, run to the porch, and indiscriminately fire two blasts from your double barrel shotgun is stupid beyond words.

Theres more but thats enough for now.

 

[Rucker61]

I think not being crazy should be a requirement for any weapon, but am willing to start at automatics.

Are you aware that automatics and semiautomatics aren't the same thing, and that a 6 shot .380 semiautomatic pistol is significantly weaker for self defense than a 6 six .357 magnum revolver?

Equal force is the rule is it not?

Nope. Appropriate force. Potentially lethal force can be met with lethal force. If an attacker brings a knife to a gunfights that's a lick on him. Would you expect 65 year old women to be limited to defend themselves against 25 year old men with just her fists?

 

[Josie]

I think not being crazy should be a requirement for any weapon, but am willing to start at automatics.

Pretty sure that's already a thing.

Equal force is the rule is it not?

Generally, the rule for self-defense is to have a reasonable fear of imminent harm.

 

[JMR]

Are you aware that automatics and semiautomatics aren't the same thing, and that a 6 shot .380 semiautomatic pistol is significantly weaker for self defense than a 6 six .357 magnum revolver?

Nope. Appropriate force. Potentially lethal force can be met with lethal force. If an attacker brings a knife to a gunfights that's a lick on him. Would you expect 65 year old women to be limited to defend themselves against 25 year old men with just her fists?

I posted "automatics" instead of "semi-automatics."

Personally I don't see the need for people to be carrying for some imagined self protection reasons. I'm more tolerant of the revolver than a semi-automatic rifle, for reasons that should be obvious. I think that we will all be safer, and free from the need to "carry protection" when there is a drastic cut in the number of weapons on the streets. Of course this will be a tragic situation for the gun manufacturers, who will continue to lobby and own our politicians.

I take it you think 65 women need to be carrying semi automatics because of the threat of 25 year old men attacking them with fists?

 

[RF667799]

What about semiautomatic rifles?


We were told that the ammo explodes bodies, and now you're telling us that bodies that have been exploded aren't effectively stopped. Will wonders never cease.




As do shotguns using buckshot. Real world tests have shown that the overpenetration risks of the commonly used 55 grain FMJ-BT bullet, 9mm hollow points and 12 gauge buckshot are all about the same. The overpenetration tests of frangible rounds like the Hornady VMAX show better results for overpenetration of walls.

Is an AR-15 Appropriate for Home Defense? Part One: Penetration Issues | OutdoorHub

Tom McHale examines whether AR-15-type firearms are suited to home defense, beginning with a bit of "backyard ballistics."

www.outdoorhub.com

Which is why a SBR in .300 Blackout is a better choice with regards to that loss of fine motor skills.

Unless of course, the intruder hears the racking, knows where you are now and starts shooting.

Birdshot:




Frangible rounds for the win.

And you'll be deaf as a post, unable to talk with police dispatch or hear the instructions from the cops.

Do a lot of short barrel shotguns come equipped with full chokes?

 

[RF667799]

Once again, if disarmament leads to tyranny, why have multiple democracies pulled it off without a hitch

Not anywhere near what I asked. You're just running from your words again.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Once again, if disarmament leads to tyranny, why have multiple democracies pulled it off without a hitch

Which ones would those be?

 

[uptower]

He won't get far while the GOP holds the house

 

[Rucker61]

I posted "automatics" instead of "semi-automatics."

Personally I don't see the need for people to be carrying for some imagined self protection reasons. I'm more tolerant of the revolver than a semi-automatic rifle, for reasons that should be obvious.

Most, if not virtually all, semiautomatics carried for self defense are handguns.

I think that we will all be safer, and free from the need to "carry protection" when there is a drastic cut in the number of weapons on the streets. Of course this will be a tragic situation for the gun manufacturers, who will continue to lobby and own our politicians.

I take it you think 65 women need to be carrying semi automatics because of the threat of 25 year old men attacking them with fists?

Yes, any lawful citizens should be able to carry firearms for self defense.

I get the feeling that when you say "semiautomatics" you mean "semiautomatic rifles" almost exclusively.

 

[The flaming lib]

photo
5_Shotguns are fine for home defense. Recommending someone grab a double barrel shotgun, run to the porch, and indiscriminately fire two blasts from your double barrel shotgun is stupid beyond words.

Theres more but thats enough for now.

I keep a 12ga pump with 00 buck for primary home defense. Also have 9mm and for the wife .38 Special (she has issues racking a slide) the 9 and .38 loaded with Hornaday critical defense . One can never be to prepared when they live in Detroit.

Person who made the statement that I quoted above is a complete and total idiot and has no idea what the common everyday citizen deals with in emergency situations such as invaders.

 

[VanceMack]

I keep a 12ga pump with 00 buck for primary home defense. Also have 9mm and for the wife .38 Special (she has issues racking a slide) the 9 and .38 loaded with Hornaday critical defense . One can never be to prepared when they live in Detroit.

Person who made the statement that I quoted above is a complete and total idiot and has no idea what the common everyday citizen deals with in emergency situations such as invaders.

Many people say the best gun for home defense is the one that you have. Whatever people have they should be proficient in their use.

My primary home defense weapons are Keltec Sub 2000s chambered in 40 cal. I have them on every floor of the house. I shoot with them regularly. They pair with (use the same magazines) as my Glock 22s. Prior, I kept an early model 20 gauge Remington 870 (Navy) short barreled shotgun as my primary home defense weapon.

Whatever people use they should become proficient with. But a double barrel shotgun is a bad idea...and running outside and firing two blasts from a double barrel shotgun is an extraordinarily stupid idea.

 

[Fletch]

I submit the Republican party's descent into insanity since the mid 2000s, and I rest my case. If you have further questions, please refer to this post again.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Neither semiautomatic AR-15s or semiautomatic AK-47s are assault rifles.

List of assault rifles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are you unaware of frangible ammo like the Hornady VMAX, which is available in .224 in 35, 40, 50, 53, 55 and 60 grain, and in .308 in 110 grain. The latter leaves the barrel of my .300 BO SBR at about 2200 FPS; the former factory rounds in 55 grain have a muzzle velocity of 3240 fps and will behave much more different than the 55 grain FMJ you seem to be referrinig to.

So we agree on frangible rounds.

Once you allow your spread to reach out far enough to make it "point and shoot", you lose the effect of the shot hitting as one mass mass.

After I had to fire five .40 cal frangible rounds into a carjacker who was pointing a loaded gun at my head, wheel on his also handgun armed accomplice to find him running back to their previously stolen car they had blocked me in with and peeling off (so I didn't fire on him) and turned back to the first and saw he had gotten up and only his shock at having been shot had probably kept him from shooting me in the back, I switched from carrying that combo to a .45 and Hornady Critical Defense ammo as my LEOSA carry. The whole thing was less than six seconds and within 10 feet.

So, yes I am familiar.

 

[Rucker61]

List of assault rifles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Assault rifles" are selective fire, regardless of what Wikipedia says.

After I had to fire five .40 cal frangible rounds into a carjacker who was pointing a loaded gun at my head, wheel on his also handgun armed accomplice to find him running back to their previously stolen car they had blocked me in with and peeling off (so I didn't fire on him) and turned back to the first and saw he had gotten up and only his shock at having been shot had probably kept him from shooting me in the back, I switched from carrying that combo to a .45 and Hornady Critical Defense ammo as my LEOSA carry. The whole thing was less than six seconds and within 10 feet.

So, yes I am familiar.

You should use them in an SBR for home defense, not in a pistol.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

"Assault rifles" are selective fire, regardless of what Wikipedia says.

They have been listed as assault rifles for decades. They were part of the initial assault weapons ban of 1994.

You should use them in an SBR for home defense, not in a pistol.

Again, capable of missing target and killing next door neighbor of one's family in other rooms on other sides of walls. Not so with a short barreled shotgun with #8 bird pellet [not buckshot] ammo.

 

[RF667799]

"Assault rifles" are selective fire, regardless of what Wikipedia says.




You should use them in an SBR for home defense, not in a pistol.

Wiki has it that assault rifles are required to be selective fire, to be considered as such.

 

[RF667799]

They have been listed as assault rifles for decades. They were part of the initial assault weapons ban of 1994.


Again, capable of missing target and killing next door neighbor of one's family in other rooms on other sides of walls. Not so with a short barreled shotgun with #8 bird pellet [not buckshot] ammo.

Some have it there is a distinction between assault rifles and assault weapons. Your source, for one.

Serious question: Are there many short barreled shotguns equipped with full chokes?

 

[Josie]

I posted "automatics" instead of "semi-automatics."

Personally I don't see the need for people to be carrying for some imagined self protection reasons. I'm more tolerant of the revolver than a semi-automatic rifle, for reasons that should be obvious. I think that we will all be safer, and free from the need to "carry protection" when there is a drastic cut in the number of weapons on the streets. Of course this will be a tragic situation for the gun manufacturers, who will continue to lobby and own our politicians.

I take it you think 65 women need to be carrying semi automatics because of the threat of 25 year old men attacking them with fists?

How do you drastically cut the number of weapons on the streets?

 

[Anthony60]

I know right? If your going to pretend to be thread police, at least be consistent.

I'm not. Good grief.