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Biden’s corporate tax plan is simple, yet revolutionary.

he is in no position to say what is unnecessary or to claim that people who pay millions more in tax dollars than he does are not paying enough

It's a debate forum... of course he's in such a position. Just because you don't agree with someone is no reason to pretend their statement is uncalled for.
 
My generation failed? what sort of bovine excrement is that. What generation are you in?

In every imaginable way. It's not the older boomers... 1945-1950.... they are most like their parents. It's the later boomers that ended up believing, as you have displayed in this thread, everything is about them.

Your generation was content with running deficits during periods of prolonged economic growth. You have the audacity to complain about tax increases??? 🤣

To ****ing bad....
 
you seem to think that some doing well prevents others from doing well.
What I think is the some will ALWAYS do better than others, and we should keep it that way. But we need to assure that Income Distribution (though unequal) is not unfair. (And in economics we do that by means of the Income

There is nothing completely wrong about our capitalist system except that it accumulates too much capital for the rich - who wont need it and cannot use it. So they leave it to either of the two or both: Their Family or Good Works*.

I also think that becoming a billionaire has nothing whatsoever with "doing well". One simply accumulates much of which they don't know what to do - so others make Their Fortune out of managing the wealth.

For the general-welfare, their fortunes do not add even one tiny bit of well-being. Not even for their inheritors who are likely already sufficiently rich for doing nothing except being born ...

*And as for the good-works, that should be the objective of governments to assure that it is shared generally by as many as possible. (And that DoD Discretionary Expenditures are being wasted when a war is almost totally unlikely!)
 
Why do you have a problem with "the people" getting their own money back?


I see, you want them to vote selfishly.
many lefties see all wealth as belonging to the government.
In every imaginable way. It's not the older boomers... 1945-1950.... they are most like their parents. It's the later boomers that ended up believing, as you have displayed in this thread, everything is about them.

Your generation was content with running deficits during periods of prolonged economic growth. You have the audacity to complain about tax increases??? 🤣

To ****ing bad....
sounds like crap you are making up. and since you don't identify with another group, it is really oozing bullshit. but then again collectivists talk about groups, not individuals
 
My question is extremely intelligent. You are still refusing to answer it.
it is a bullshit question since it demand I accept your assertion of unproven facts. you should have worded it this way: would you support tax cuts EVEN IF tax cuts were shown to hurt the poor.
 
What I think is the some will ALWAYS do better than others, and we should keep it that way. But we need to assure that Income Distribution (though unequal) is not unfair. (And in economics we do that by means of the Income

There is nothing completely wrong about our capitalist system except that it accumulates too much capital for the rich - who wont need it and cannot use it. So they leave it to either of the two or both: Their Family or Good Works*.

I also think that becoming a billionaire has nothing whatsoever with "doing well". One simply accumulates much of which they don't know what to do - so others make Their Fortune out of managing the wealth.

For the general-welfare, their fortunes do not add even one tiny bit of well-being. Not even for their inheritors who are likely already sufficiently rich for doing nothing except being born ...

*And as for the good-works, that should be the objective of governments to assure that it is shared generally by as many as possible. (And that DoD Discretionary Expenditures are being wasted when a war is almost totally unlikely!)
unfair is a term that will never be agreed to. Is it unfair that say a star like Harrison Ford, often make more money for a movie than the hundreds of people who put the film together? I find giving government the power to say what is "too much" is a bigger risk
 
sounds like crap you are making up.

Just an observation.

Notice how you refuse to comment on the statement pertaining to the topic. After all... you chose to quote it.
 
unfair is a term that will never be agreed to. Is it unfair that say a star like Harrison Ford, often make more money for a movie than the hundreds of people who put the film together?

It's unfair to taxpayers to subsidize corporate loses while privatizing cooperate profits. When the economy experiences prolonged periods of economic growth, we should increase taxes. Automatic economic stabilizers simultaneously decline.

And when the economy is facing tremendous headwinds... we should increase spending and lower taxes.

Got that??? It's not difficult to comprehend unless you're being purposefully obtuse.

I find giving government the power to say what is "too much" is a bigger risk

Income and wealth have grown considerably... just not for the nation as a whole. Hiding behind an opinion on liberty isn't a valid counter position.
 
HISTORY LESSON
In every imaginable way. It's not the older boomers... 1945-1950.... they are most like their parents. It's the later boomers that ended up believing, as you have displayed in this thread, everything is about them.

Your generation was content with running deficits during periods of prolonged economic growth. You have the audacity to complain about tax increases??? 🤣
This "younger-generation" effect happens everywhere. It is not just in the US. Let's not forget, the US has lasted more than 200-years and Rome finally went under after 400 years. The reason that "things change" in each case is somewhat irrelevant. But factual history is not.

If I understand correctly, the reason in both cases (ours today and 400 years ago) could be attributed to the same factors. The Romans running the Empire in Rome just didn't care about what was happening elsewhere. They could not perceive that Rome might not last forever. After all, it was already 400 years old, so how could it end? Well, change almost overnight it did.

The Huns marched down from the north and into Rome without a whimper. They then left having ransacked any wealth they could find. The downfall of Rome itself also sparked that of the Empire. Its sacking became a precedent and the rest of the Empire descended quickly into its mini-empires and no longer paid tribute to Rome itself.

History has a way of catching-up on people who never learn adequately its lessons. The behaviour of mankind is self-repetitive. Uncle Sam had better watch where he's going.

Many think that democracy is "enough" and Unrestrained Enterprise is a "given"; that is, a kind of automatic reward. Wakey, wakey, boyz&girlz!

History has demonstrated otherwise repeatedly to mankind. Fair Income-Distribution is key to the solidity of both a nation and nations. Lessening it away is like cancer of your backbone.

The entire body crumbles to nothing ...
 
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socialists, progressives and other wealth vandals, always pretend that their envy-based schemes are for the "greater good". Why do you have a valid argument against what a CEO makes? that is between him and his board of directors. Claiming they don't pay their fair share is envy laden bullshit. Chances are, they pay more in a year than you will pay in your life.

Because we all should care what the distribution of Wealth is. We all contribute to it making. (And its loss.)

People like you without the slightest recognition of historical-fact fail to understand why a booming economy can utterly fail. And not resurrect itself!

It has never happened in the US! But that does not mean it cannot happen ... !
 
"Because we all should care what the distribution of Wealth is."

That is a capital is fixed mentality.

All of the wealth that exists in FANG and now we can throw Tesla in there counts in the trillions. All of it created after 1996? (+/-)

Google doesn't make me poorer. Neither does Microsoft. In fact both make me infinitely more productive.

The only reason why wealth exists is because consumers value the output. If Tesla produced Yugos, people wouldn't be as impressed, they buy fewer Teslas at a lower price and the stock would be worth far less.

Yes there are fancy cars and fancy houses which, btw, are all liabilities, they cost money to maintain. True wealth derives its value from consumers.


"We conclude that only a minuscule fraction of the social returns from technological advances over the 1948-2001 period was captured by producers, indicating that most of the benefits of technological change are passed on to consumers rather than captured by producers."
 
For the general-welfare, their fortunes do not add even one tiny bit of well-being. Not even for their inheritors who are likely already sufficiently rich for doing nothing except being born ...

So when Elon Musk sold out his stake in Paypal and threw it into Tesla, that didn't add to the general welfare?

So when the Ford family owns Ford and Ford produces sales of, let's say $100bn per year (we can obviously look up the specific figure). We can value the Ford familly's wealth in stock, but the consumers of Ford products value the output at least as much as they spend buying the products. Farmers across America obviously use the F-150, 250, 350 as a workhorse vehicle which adds to their productivity. People buy the Ford Focus to commute cheaply and it increases the range of their income generating activity.

You epitomize an extreme socialist mindset and its really the product of rank emotionalism.
 
You epitomize an extreme socialist mindset and its really the product of rank emotionalism.
That's impossible.

Socialism exists nowhere in the Free-World. Maybe in China or North Korea.

Btw - for your edification - the definition of socialism:
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Now where do you see that anywhere else but China and North Korea ... ?
 
That's impossible.

Socialism exists nowhere in the Free-World. Maybe in China or North Korea.

Btw - for your edification - the definition of socialism:


Now where do you see that anywhere else but China and North Korea ... ?

So what its a question of degree.

You live in France.....

1618765998865.png

Call it whatever you want, I'm not necessarily interested in a semantic debate.

Bottom line though, in France, the GOVERNMENT makes the majority of economic decisions.
 
I'll wait for the details on what passes Joe Manchin and the Senate. The Dems blew it then. They are quite capable of doing it again.
Stick around. You aint seen nuthin' yet from the Dems.

Btw, seen the latest count? Not yet? Well, the Replicants dont own the Senate any more. And when push comes to shove, where do you think the VP is going to vote?

(Oh, yes, she will ... !!! ;^)
 
Paying your fair share is not excessive taxes in anyone's mind except yours. Fair share means rich people are not eligible for any tax cus based on their earned income. That is not adding new taxes or tax increases.
Just so I am clear on what you mean...

Are you saying that the tax code prior to the reforms made during the Trump administration were fair and thats what we should return to?
 
It is a bullshit question since it demands I accept your assertion of unproven facts. You should have worded it this way: would you support tax cuts EVEN IF tax cuts were shown to hurt the poor.
I asked it perfectly.The same people who support tax cuts for the rich oppose funding programs that help the poor get transportation, housing, education, food, health care, and (for many adults) jobs. They do not fear the money allotted for those programs will be spent on something totally different. They say, "Get rid of the agencies and programs." So in fact they do hate to help poor Americans survive.
 
So what its a question of degree.

You live in France.....

View attachment 67329199

Call it whatever you want, I'm not necessarily interested in a semantic debate.

Bottom line though, in France, the GOVERNMENT makes the majority of economic decisions.
So, socialism is a question of degrees... that’s obviously true. But where you draw the line is important and not just a semantic argument. Democratic socialism has the word socialist in it, but isn’t Soviet or Chinese socialism of the type experimented with during the last century. We can see clearly where that goes—the Soviet Union collapsed, and was reborn into a world where the Russians use the apparatus of the state necessary to maintain a totalitarian government, in a world dominated by western capitalism, and the Chinese are now doing the same thing without the big public collapse. Both of them “cheat.” We call it that, and it is. They violate the laws of democracy and capitalism while still gaining the benefits. The whole world can see it happening. It’s not a secret what China and Russia are doing, and we (most of the world) punish these states with sanctions and other financial means in order to keep them from reverting back to just mowing down protesters in the streets, or taking what they want and profiting from it.

Now, in the case of western style democracy we also have problems in the system. Profit is what drives our systems. Yes, it promotes innovation, and does all the things you say it does, but at a certain level also offers us the opportunity to “cheat.” If I were rich enough I could use loopholes in our system to effectively pay no taxes, and further more I could outsource the manufacturing of my products to other countries where people have a much lower standard of living in general— the laws in those countries is such that employers can basically force what in the US would be called slavery—to increase my profits. So Western capitalism also “cheats” because the way the world is now allows it. I put cheats in quotes because doing this is mostly not illegal in the US. But it’s also not illegal in China to shoot protesters that the state sees as a threat to its system (or imprison, or whatever else it deems necessary.)

Our system in the US also tolerates “cheaters” doing illegal things for profit which in certain instances could be easily solved. Take illegal immigration. Instead of shutting down job opportunities for illegal immigrants, which would essentially diminish illegal immigration, we effectively allow people to get away with hiring illegal workers because we’ve created a profit motive and minimized penalties. We do this to because if we didn’t, profits would be less in industries where illegal immigrant employees is rampant (construction, food service, agriculture, manual labor, etc—we know where they are—I could find you dozens of illegal aliens working within 10 miles of my house on any day of the week, without trying hard. Not only would profits go down, but some of these business models would collapse (as they exist now) because they actually rely on “cheating.” stopping employers from hiring illegal immigrants for cheaper would raise the cost of goods and services to the end consumer.

Democratic Socialism offers a balance between these two systems. I understand the need to maximize freedom, and there are criticisms to a Social Democracy, just like any other system, but it’s moving in the right direction, IMO. But the idea that DS is going to end in totalitarianism and mass disappearings of our citizens is a bridge too far. Could it happen? Yes, it could, but the drive of DS is to take the best of both systems. Try being a big multinational or a government bureaucracy in France and doing something the public felt was terrible for them, or unfair. They literally might drag you out into the street and beat your ass, but the idea of the system tries to balance these forces in a way that benefits the majority of people regardless of their means or political leanings.
 
Just so I am clear on what you mean...

Are you saying that the tax code prior to the reforms made during the Trump administration were fair and that's what we should return to?
I did not say anything about tax codes, so you have no point to make there. Next question.
 
I asked it perfectly.The same people who support tax cuts for the rich oppose funding programs that help the poor get transportation, housing, education, food, health care, and (for many adults) jobs. They do not fear the money allotted for those programs will be spent on something totally different. They say, "Get rid of the agencies and programs." So in fact they do hate to help poor Americans survive.
Yes, and this is essentially the opposite side of the “defund the police” extremists’ argument. I know what it means for most moderate progressives, and there should be police reform, but that reform should actually cost more money (training, selection of candidates, better non-lethal methods of enforcement) and not less. Getting rid of agencies, bureaucratic red tape, and all those one-liners are just slogans like defund the police.
 
So, socialism is a question of degrees... that’s obviously true. But where you draw the line is important and not just a semantic argument. Democratic socialism has the word socialist in it, but isn’t Soviet or Chinese socialism of the type experimented with during the last century. We can see clearly where that goes—the Soviet Union collapsed, and was reborn into a world where the Russians use the apparatus of the state necessary to maintain a totalitarian government, in a world dominated by western capitalism, and the Chinese are now doing the same thing without the big public collapse. Both of them “cheat.” We call it that, and it is. They violate the laws of democracy and capitalism while still gaining the benefits. The whole world can see it happening. It’s not a secret what China and Russia are doing, and we (most of the world) punish these states with sanctions and other financial means in order to keep them from reverting back to just mowing down protesters in the streets, or taking what they want and profiting from it.

Now, in the case of western style democracy we also have problems in the system. Profit is what drives our systems. Yes, it promotes innovation, and does all the things you say it does, but at a certain level also offers us the opportunity to “cheat.” If I were rich enough I could use loopholes in our system to effectively pay no taxes, and further more I could outsource the manufacturing of my products to other countries where people have a much lower standard of living in general— the laws in those countries is such that employers can basically force what in the US would be called slavery—to increase my profits. So Western capitalism also “cheats” because the way the world is now allows it. I put cheats in quotes because doing this is mostly not illegal in the US. But it’s also not illegal in China to shoot protesters that the state sees as a threat to its system (or imprison, or whatever else it deems necessary.)

Our system in the US also tolerates “cheaters” doing illegal things for profit which in certain instances could be easily solved. Take illegal immigration. Instead of shutting down job opportunities for illegal immigrants, which would essentially diminish illegal immigration, we effectively allow people to get away with hiring illegal workers because we’ve created a profit motive and minimized penalties. We do this to because if we didn’t, profits would be less in industries where illegal immigrant employees is rampant (construction, food service, agriculture, manual labor, etc—we know where they are—I could find you dozens of illegal aliens working within 10 miles of my house on any day of the week, without trying hard. Not only would profits go down, but some of these business models would collapse (as they exist now) because they actually rely on “cheating.” stopping employers from hiring illegal immigrants for cheaper would raise the cost of goods and services to the end consumer.

Democratic Socialism offers a balance between these two systems. I understand the need to maximize freedom, and there are criticisms to a Social Democracy, just like any other system, but it’s moving in the right direction, IMO. But the idea that DS is going to end in totalitarianism and mass disappearings of our citizens is a bridge too far. Could it happen? Yes, it could, but the drive of DS is to take the best of both systems. Try being a big multinational or a government bureaucracy in France and doing something the public felt was terrible for them, or unfair. They literally might drag you out into the street and beat your ass, but the idea of the system tries to balance these forces in a way that benefits the majority of people regardless of their means or political leanings.

DS ends in malaise because if I earn a dollar and have to give the government $.56 that will materially impact my incentive to produce.

"I understand the need to maximize freedom"

No, you don't.
 

“It will be a massive cut, twice 10 billion euros - 10 billion in 2021 and 10 billion euros in 2022,” Le Maire said on France 2 television.

“Producing in France will be cheaper, it’s as easy as that,” he added.


Across the web entrepreneurs have been changing their profiles to pictures of pigeons. Why? Well, ‘A Pigeon’ is french slang for a sucker, or perhaps a fall guy – which is exactly how they feel.

“The Pigeons: A movement in Defense of French Entrepreneurs” started with a few thousand members, but now it numbers over 60,000 on Facebook alone, and the #geonpi hashtag (here’s why) has proliferated from their Twitter account.

And don't for one moment think this isn't happening here. I was paying $.56 in local, state and federal in North Jersey. Of course I joined the great migration to FL.

There need to be LIMITS.

That's what LIMITED government is about.

Remember for France to spend 56% of GDP on government, some people will pay less than 56% because they are poor or otherwise can't pay 56% at all but to get there some people they are just taxing the absolute living shit out of people.
 
I did not say anything about tax codes, so you have no point to make there. Next question.
wtf???????

We have been talking about taxes. It would be really helpful if one of you who constantly use the term "fair share" would define what that phrase means in a tangible manner.
 
DS ends in malaise because if I earn a dollar and have to give the government $.56 that will materially impact my incentive to produce.

"I understand the need to maximize freedom"

No, you don't.
Ha ha, another sloganeer. Slogans are great until you pass them on to people with different ideas of what freedom actually is or try to implement them into a system.
DS does not allow (through disincentives) the kinds of profit making that libertarian capitalism offers, but it creates a more stable system overall. And yes, instability creates more opportunity for profit. You’ve just proven what I said in the post you responded to. Libertarian capitalism also leaves a huge hole for people who would “cheat” the system for personal gain. These are “freedom” loving Americans whose character and moral limits allow them to look at a system and take unfair advantage of its loopholes and shortcomings. If all people were of upstanding morals and character, rules wouldn’t be necessary.

You mentioned something about a zero sum argument.. but this is just another slogan. What does it actually mean when on the ground in reality? It’s true that there is no limit to “intellectual” gains from a free system, but hard resources DO have a limit. Things like oil, minerals, bandwidth, infrastructure, and access to these things are limited or can be made limited by more powerful interests.

There’s a fundamental difference between the temperaments of liberal people and conservative people. Very generally, liberals create more intellectual novelty, and conservatives maximize the utility of these ideas and create stability within those systems. This difference has to be balanced, because both would be disastrous without the other. And this has nothing to do with intelligence or character. There are douchebags on both sides.
 
Yes, and this is essentially the opposite side of the “defund the police” extremists’ argument. I know what it means for most moderate progressives, and there should be police reform, but that reform should actually cost more money (training, selection of candidates, better non-lethal methods of enforcement) and not less. Getting rid of agencies, bureaucratic red tape, and all those one-liners are just slogans like defund the police.
Where did you get that lie from? I am only talking about the fact that rich people hate to help poor people. Nothing else. If you hate paying taxes that you know will be spent helping the poor, you want the poor to suffer and die. No ands, ifs, or buts.
 
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