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Best rebuttal of Alito to date

LMAO... Where is a limited right to privacy in the 4th amendment... Are you trying to have penumbra cake and eat it? What about the right to choose your kids school? Can states now compel attendance at public schools?

After setting out the above facts, the Society's bill alleges that the enactment conflicts with the right of parents to choose schools where their children will receive appropriate mental and religious training, the right of the child to influence the parents' choice of a school, the right of schools and teachers therein to engage in a useful business or profession, and is accordingly repugnant to the Constitution and void. And, further, that, unless enforcement of the measure is enjoined the corporation's business and property will suffer irreparable injury.

Read the 4th amendment. It’s not that long.
 
Read the 4th amendment. It’s not that long.

Oh, come on, help us out here.. Where in the 4th amendment does it say there is a limited privacy right? Are you just a part-time originalist? As the sign in Clarence Thomas' office says, "Please do not emanate into the penumbra."
 
The pregnancy may be unwanted, but that does not make it the product of an involuntary act.

Yes it is. Conception and sex are not synonymous, even without birth control as pregnancy only occurs somewhere between 10% of the time.

No, it makes them accountable for their voluntary behavior, just as men are.

The women in this instance never volunteered to get pregnant.

By your reasoning, any man should be able to avoid child support simply by claiming he did not “agree” to the woman becoming pregnant.

I am not entirely opposed to an opt out clause for men.

Of course it does. I have never claimed abortion bans don’t curtail the privacy rights of women or place a limit on their bodily autonomy. I have repeatedly said exactly the opposition. After all our exchanges on this topic, do you really understand so little about my position?

:rolleyes:

I understand your position; more specifically, I understand your position is logically inconsistent.

You cannot deny a woman her rights to both privacy and bodily autonomy without due process. As the Constiution does not recognize fetal personhood, with in fact the exact language of the 14th Amendment precluding such a conclusion, a State enacting a law to infringe on a woman's access to an abortion is a violation of her rights without due process.
 
Oh, come on, help us out here.. Where in the 4th amendment does it say there is a limited privacy right? Are you just a part-time originalist? As the sign in Clarence Thomas' office says, "Please do not emanate into the penumbra."
Read it. The words are clearly there.
 
i realize there are mostly old farts here so i've been going to social media where young people post.


they've been telling each other to delete the App on their phones that track their periods/cycles.



THAT is where the far, far right has taken us.
 
I was able to read the article (the NYT really ought to design their website security with more care). I think there are two paragraphs that summarize Ms Goodwin's argument, and they are these:

With respect:

Thanks for posting some of the article.

It's an interesting analysis and could possibly be the basis for a federal abortion rights act in cases where pregnancy is involuntary. But her argument falls apart when the act that results in conception is voluntary, as it is in most cases.

You need to make your case for why voluntary sex supposedly changes the abortion issue.

Even the most favorable reading of this analysis, however, doesn't speak to the core issue: when does a woman, acting on her right to privacy, harm another? This cannot be resolved without legally defining "another," and nothing in the 13th or 14th (or anywhere else in the Constitution) gives Congress or SCOTUS the authority to do this. Only states can.

You seem to be trying to create a newly recognized classification(?) of personhood called 'another.'
 
Only because the court recognized PENUMBRA rights...

That’s nice.

I’m convinced that the intent behind the fourth amendment was in part to create a right to privacy limited only by actual or perceived harm done to others by acting on that right. If you want to call that a “penumbra,” you’re welcome to it. I call it a reasonable assessment of original intent.
 
With respect:

Thanks for posting some of the article.



You need to make your case for why voluntary sex supposedly changes the abortion issue.
We are often legally accountable for our voluntary actions. As I mentioned above, you seem to be giving the father a means to avoid paying child support simply by stating he didn’t agree to the pregnancy. Is that really what you want or is accountability only for men?

You're claiming that states have the authority to define "another." And you seem to be trying to create a newly recognized classification(?) of personhood called 'another.' There's more, like you appealing to the authority of states, but that's messier.
Yes, exactly, I’m saying states have the authority to legally define “another” in a way that the federal government does not. And whether you want to call it a new classification of personhood or the extension of an existing classification, it makes no difference to me. A state has the authority to define a right to life for a fetus, and the federal government does not.
 
We are often legally accountable for our voluntary actions. As I mentioned above, you seem to be giving the father a means to avoid paying child support simply by stating he didn’t agree to the pregnancy. Is that really what you want or is accountability only for men?

With respect: You're avoiding trying to make your case by deflecting to a men's rights issue.

Yes, exactly, I’m saying states have the authority to legally define “another” in a way that the federal government does not. And whether you want to call it a new classification of personhood or the extension of an existing classification, it makes no difference to me. A state has the authority to define a right to life for a fetus, and the federal government does not.

Do tell (bolded).
 
Just a quick skim, it says no such thing, everyone know the 14th amendment was specifically written to make the now free slaves US citizens, Indians were not included .
Quick recap:

13thA: ended slavery and involuntary servitude except labor of convicted prisoners.

14th A Section 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the US whose and privileges and immunities can't be abridged. Every person has rights to life, liberty, and property that can't be denied without due process. They all have to have equal protection (including ex-slaves/indentured servants.

Section 2: guarantees the proper apportionment for representation and also the right to vote of men aged 21, a common age instead of states' choices.

(Native Americans who didn't pay taxes weren't citizens as they were members of foreign nations/tribes).

Women couldn't vote, so there had to be a later amendment for that, but "person" was used for running for office and women did run (though of course they lost).

The citizenship clause was important later: when a law made US women who married foreign men ineligible for citizenship (because of discriminatory immigration laws) lose their citizenship, the Supreme Court finally said this was unconstitutional.

The part of the 14th A about persons had to apply to female ex-slaves. Slave owners had made female slaves pregnant, by raping them or getting male slaves to persuade them, to use them to breed more slaves. The liberty of persons to choose to marry and have a family and kids was considered very important and guaranteed by this amendment. The state obviously should not have had the right to force ex-slave persons to go through pregnancy to use them to breed more persons.

Alito tried to argue that the 14th A liberty didn't apply in two ways.

1) As children women were under fathers and as married women, under coverture, merged with their husbands' persons, and, as they couldn't vote, they weren't political persons. But women were counted as persons in every Census and unmarried but marriageable women and widows weren't under coverture. They could inherit property, including real estate, own and run businesses, make contracts, and choose to marry or not.

Slave women weren't recognized as married, and when the 14th A was written, there were a lot of unmarried ex-slaves with these "liberties." Long ago, Locke had clarified that the liberty in "life, liberty, and property" meant "the enjoyment of one's own body, health, limbs," etc. You naturally have a right to your health.

Of course, premarital sex was a crime, but the punishments, for both men and women, in the 1700s, were whippings/stocks or jail plus fines. We would not accept whippings/stocks as legal today, but jail plus fines seems a lot safer than pregnancy, which very often harms women's health. So an unmarried woman who had premarital sex could have been punished, but the state had no good reason to force continuation of pregnancy.

2) Alito argued that abortion was not included in the 14th A liberty because it was a unique act that ended a potential life or "unborn human being." However, he knew embryos and fetuses had never been considered persons in the Constitution and had no rights. Moreover, nothing in the Constitution sacralizes "potential life."

The only possible compelling interest a state could have was to force her to reproduce for the state, and this is so clear a parallel to a slave owner forcing a female slave to reproduce for the slave owner.

The NYT article also refers to the Skinner v Oklahoma case of 1942, the first case where there is mention of the right to reproductive autonomy in relation to the 14th A right, tho' it concerns a man and state sterilization. The SC said you can't sterilize a guy for one crime if you don't for another crime with equivalent punishment, but it also said it violated the guy's reproductive autonomy (the crime wasn't sex abuse of kids or rape). The point is that the 14th A covers reproductive autonomy.

Alito's weakness is that, as a Catholic, he really thinks the embryo is a person, and so he suggests that the state's interest is in the "potential life" of an "unborn human being." But it should not have a right to force an ex-slave to reproduce human beings for the state. By extension, it shouldn't force any woman to do so, but it seems telling that, today, its doing so is more of a danger to the health and life of African American pregnant women than to others. Without fetal personhood, his argument is BS.
 
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Quick recap:

13thA: ended slavery and involuntary servitude except labor of convicted prisoners.

14th A Section 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the US whose and privileges and immunities can't be abridged. Every person has rights to life, liberty, and property that can't be denied without due process. They all have to have equal protection (including ex-slaves/indentured servants.

Section 2: guarantees the proper apportionment for representation and also the right to vote of men aged 21, a common age instead of states' choices.

(Native Americans who didn't pay taxes weren't citizens as they were members of foreign nations/tribes).

Women couldn't vote, so there had to be a later amendment for that, but "person" was used for running for office and women did run (though of course they lost).

The citizenship clause was important later: when a law made US women who married foreign men ineligible for citizenship (because of discriminatory immigration laws) lose their citizenship, the Supreme Court finally said this was unconstitutional.

The part of the 14th A about persons had to apply to female ex-slaves. Slave owners had made female slaves pregnant, by raping them or getting male slaves to persuade them, to use them to breed more slaves. The liberty of persons to choose to marry and have a family and kids was considered very important and guaranteed by this amendment. The state obviously should not have had the right to force ex-slave persons to go through pregnancy to use them to breed more persons.

Alito tried to argue that the 14th A liberty didn't apply in two ways.

1) As children women were under fathers and as married women, under coverture, merged with their husbands' persons, and, as they couldn't vote, they weren't political persons. But women were counted as persons in every Census and unmarried but marriageable women and widows weren't under coverture. They could inherit property, including real estate, own and run businesses, make contracts, and choose to marry or not.

Slave women weren't recognized as married, and when the 14th A was written, there were a lot of unmarried ex-slaves with these "liberties." Long ago, Locke had clarified that the liberty in "life, liberty, and property" meant "the enjoyment of one's own body, health, limbs," etc. You naturally have a right to your health.

Of course, premarital sex was a crime, but the punishments, for both men and women, in the 1700s, were whippings/stocks or jail plus fines. We would not accept whippings/stocks as legal today, but jail plus fines seems a lot safer than pregnancy, which very often harms women's health. So an unmarried woman who had premarital sex could have been punished, but the state had no good reason to force continuation of pregnancy.

2) Alito argued that abortion was not included in the 14th A liberty because it was a unique act that ended a potential life or "unborn human being." However, he knew embryos and fetuses had never been considered persons in the Constitution and had no rights. Moreover, nothing in the Constitution sacralizes "potential life."

The only possible compelling interest a state could have was to force her to reproduce for the state, and this is so clear a parallel to a slave owner forcing a female slave to reproduce for the slave owner.

The NYT article also refers to the Skinner v Oklahoma case of 1942, the first case where there is mention of the right to reproductive autonomy in relation to the 14th A right, tho' it concerns a man and state sterilization. The SC said you can't sterilize a guy for one crime if you don't for another crime with equivalent punishment, but it also said it violated the guy's reproductive autonomy (the crime wasn't sex abuse of kids or rape). The point is that the 14th A covers reproductive autonomy.
Not interested in copy and paste without a link
 
With respect: You're avoiding trying to make your case by deflecting to a men's rights issue.
No, I’m point out that as individuals, regardless of gender, we are responsible for our actions.

Do tell (bolded).
There’s nothing prohibiting it in the Constitution.

For example, and by way of comparison, there is nothing in the Constitution that allows Congress or SCOTUS to create a federal right to healthcare. That the Constitution is silent on the issue does not prevent a state from creating such a right within its jurisdiction. The same goes for a recognizing fetal rights; the feds cannot do it and the states can for the same reason: the Constitution.
 
............
For example, and by way of comparison, there is nothing in the Constitution that allows Congress or SCOTUS to create a federal right to healthcare. That the Constitution is silent on the issue does not prevent a state from creating such a right within its jurisdiction. The same goes for a recognizing fetal rights; the feds cannot do it and the states can for the same reason: the Constitution.

What if the State Constitution has nothing in it addressing "healthcare"?
If the State Constitution is "silent" on the issue, does it give the State Legislature the right to enact a law without first amending the State Constitution?

- Wonder if Alito would support having the "unborn" claimed on federal income tax as a dependent child.
- Should the "unborn" child be issued a social security number once the pregnancy is confirmed?
- If the mother loses the fetus due to a miscarriage, can she claim social security death benefits?

imo, when it comes to abortion it makes sense to have a national policy and not leave it up to the States.
and yes, I am pro womans choice in this matter.
 
What if the State Constitution has nothing in it addressing "healthcare"?
If the State Constitution is "silent" on the issue, does it give the State Legislature the right to enact a law without first amending the State Constitution?
If necessary, the state updates its constitution to add that right.

- Wonder if Alito would support having the "unborn" claimed on federal income tax as a dependent child.
Ask him.

- Should the "unborn" child be issued a social security number once the pregnancy is confirmed?
- If the mother loses the fetus due to a miscarriage, can she claim social security death benefits?
The only reference when one acquires federal rights in the constitution references those “born.”

imo, when it comes to abortion it makes sense to have a national policy and not leave it up to the States.
and yes, I am pro womans choice in this matter.
Get two-thirds of Congress and three fourths of the states to agree with you and you’ll have it.
 
If necessary, the state updates its constitution to add that right.

Then States should amend their Constitution before banning abortions.

Good Luck in getting enough of the public to vote for it.
 
Then States should amend their Constitution before banning abortions.
That depends on the state and how its Constitution is written. If there’s nothing like the 9th or 10th amendments in their constitution, then there’s absolutely no reason that state’s legislature couldn’t enact either a total abortion ban or abortion rights through the third trimester.

Good Luck in getting enough of the public to vote for it.
There’s no luck involved here. We’re going to have states with abortion rights laws that exceed the protections in Roe, and we’re going to have other states that ban abortions outright. Do you really not see this coming?
 
Can they compel them to attend PUBLIC school?
This isn’t 20 questions and no one is interested in whatever your obfuscation is.
 
Not interested in copy and paste without a link
I didn't copy and paste anything. All I did was point out that you were wrong for thinking the 14th A was only about citizenship for ex-slaves. It is about even more than I noted, as it has 4 distinct sections.

You are also wrong to think that Native Americans were left out. They were considered citizens of foreign nations if they weren't paying taxes, a distinction held from 1787 through the 14th A. Even though they were hopelessly robbed of territory, they still had reservation land that was not conceived as US land. All sorts of events leading up to Wounded Knee had not yet occurred. I don't need a link for that. Everybody knows it as basic to US history.
 
The mere fact that people will openly admit that their defense of abortion rights is NOT a question of abortion rights but of a persons right to privacy shows just how bad the original RvW ruling was and why it was overturned.
 
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