Bernie rejects questions about Socialism

[Lafayette]

You should start a business and pay your employees whatever you like. Even when it bankrupts you.

Very intelligent.

Moving right along ...

 

[VanceMack]

Very intelligent.

Moving right along ...

Its funny...every time the sheer folly of the leftist position promoted by people that havent the first clue as to how business works is pointed out, they suddenly want to move along. Sort of like Bernies response to the question of failed socialist states.


Theres your socialist fairy tale (which you are ABSOLUTELY free to experiment with) and there is reality.

 

[Casca XV]

Progressive Liberals always hold up Scandinavian countries as an example of how well Socialism works. But upon close scrutiny it’s not working well there either.

The average Scandinavian’s net worth is 1/3 of the average American’s.

80% of Scandinavians live in what we call “The Projects”. They look a little pettier because they don’t have most of the minority social issues we have but it’s still a ghetto and the norm under Socialism.

They brag about free collage and health care, but less than 10% are allowed in collage and the health care is so heavily rationed every Scandinavian who can comes to America or private medical clinics for all their healthcare needs.

They have no gulags that anyone knows of YET, but they also have few of the freedoms we take for granted. In many of the Scandinavian countries a person has to get Government permission to change careers or move to another city.

Liberals often claim people in Scandinavian countries are “Happier”, yet every one of them has a higher per capita suicide rate than the US.

The limited success some Scandinavian countries have had under Socialism is 100% due to the hard working culture of its people. With 3rd world primitives who are happy to collect welfare their entire lives pouring over the borders (like the US has) that small success will disappear real quick.

 

[Wiggen]

Bernie tells us all about great Socialism is.

He tells us Denmark is the high mark, even though they have NO minimum wage and a much lower corporate tax rate than the USA.

Now Bernie runs away from questions about the failures of Socialism in Latin America.

Bernie Sanders Isn't Interested In Answering Questions About Socialism In Venezuela | Video | RealClearPolitics

Sorry Uncle B, but if Socialism is so fantastic, why not discuss its failures?

Ssshhhhh! We're not supposed to talk about Bernie being a Socialist. It's a secret! I have at least one poster ignoring me because I had the bad manners to point out that not only is Bernie a Socialist, he was elected as a Socialist. Of course, so are many of his followers, but I think that's a secret too.

 

[Wiggen]

Denmark is ranked as number 12 on the Index of Economic Freedom, and USA as number 11 - in practice it is a tie between the two nations in this respect.

Why don't Bernie and his supporters all move to Denmark! That way everybody will be happy!

 

[Lafayette]

... every time the sheer folly of the leftist position promoted by people that havent the first clue as to how business works is pointed out

Bollocks to this notion.

I've had a commercial career that lasted for four decades. I teach economics as a past-time ...
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[VanceMack]

Bollocks to this notion.

I've had a commercial career that lasted for four decades. I teach economics as a past-time ...
_________________________

And you know doubt are creating a generation of Bernouts.

It's so ****ing hilarious to hear of SO MANY people that have had DECADEs of 'commercial' experience...yet we are desperately lacking in all these successful businesses built on magical socialist ideals.

 

[Lafayette]

And you know doubt are creating a generation of Bernouts.

It's so ****ing hilarious to hear of SO MANY people that have had DECADEs of 'commercial' experience...yet we are desperately lacking in all these successful businesses built on magical socialist ideals.

M... r... a...

 

[Sweden]

Sweden guarantees the right to accumulate property, so its not really socialist. Like any democratic country, its economy is primarily capitalist, with some socialist institutions. As opposed to a country like Cuba where govt owns most everything and nearly everyone works for the govt.

That's true Jonny. But Sweden has that hallmark of a socialist state, big government. 55% of the pay of LOWEST paid workers goes in taxes - income, sales, residence etc. Higer up the income scale the proportion taken by government is , of course, still greater.

 

[calm]

Name me a country where socialism was chosen by the people, and not forced on them. If socialism is so great, why does it need to force its way into power?

I am not sure what you mean by the word "force".

Maybe if you listed 3 countries who you think were "forced" I might get an idea what you are talking about.

Calm

 

[Surrealistik]

Progressive Liberals always hold up Scandinavian countries as an example of how well Socialism works. But upon close scrutiny it’s not working well there either.

The average Scandinavian’s net worth is 1/3 of the average American’s.

80% of Scandinavians live in what we call “The Projects”. They look a little pettier because they don’t have most of the minority social issues we have but it’s still a ghetto and the norm under Socialism.

They brag about free collage and health care, but less than 10% are allowed in collage and the health care is so heavily rationed every Scandinavian who can comes to America or private medical clinics for all their healthcare needs.

They have no gulags that anyone knows of YET, but they also have few of the freedoms we take for granted. In many of the Scandinavian countries a person has to get Government permission to change careers or move to another city.

Liberals often claim people in Scandinavian countries are “Happier”, yet every one of them has a higher per capita suicide rate than the US.

The limited success some Scandinavian countries have had under Socialism is 100% due to the hard working culture of its people. With 3rd world primitives who are happy to collect welfare their entire lives pouring over the borders (like the US has) that small success will disappear real quick.

Median wealth is the better measure, and most Scandinavian countries surpass the States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult

In terms of

Median Income (comparable or better; and this doesn't even adjust for services received which for the typical person exceeds the amount paid in taxes): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

Corruption (they rank better): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#2015

Economic Freedom (they rank comparably; and this is by Heritage): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#2015

Democratic Quality/Representation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Inequality adjusted standards of living, collating education, life expectancy and income per capita (because no one cares about the life styles of the obscenely wealthy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Inequality-adjusted_HDI

Health Care System Ranking: http://thepatientfactor.com/canadia...zations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

Education: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading

 

[Surrealistik]

Addendum; Economic Freedoms index (had issues with the copy pasta apparently): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

 

[TheGoverness]

Addendum; Economic Freedoms index (had issues with the copy pasta apparently): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

I hate that so much.

 

[Lafayette]

And you know doubt are creating a generation of Bernouts.

It's so ****ing hilarious to hear of SO MANY people that have had DECADEs of 'commercial' experience...yet we are desperately lacking in all these successful businesses built on magical socialist ideals.

Glad you are getting an ****-laugh out of this forum.

But no thanks for the humdrum sarcasm that passes for "wit".

Moving right along ...
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[VanceMack]

Glad you are getting an ****-laugh out of this forum.

But no thanks for the humdrum sarcasm that passes for "wit".

Moving right along ...
______________________

You keep saying these words.....

 

[Andalublue]

Denmark is ranked as number 12 on the Index of Economic Freedom, and USA as number 11 - in practice it is a tie between the two nations in this respect.

Well, that's one metric, and not necessarily one that those of a socialistic bent rate as the highest priority.

Try these other indices:

The Economist's Democracy Index
Denmark #5, USA #20

Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index
Denmark #4, USA #41

Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index
Denmark #1, USA #16

 

[jonny5]

Not equality, equity. There is a difference. There is also a difference between Socialism and Social Democracy. Contriving similar (but still different) things does not make that any less true.

He believes in both. More so than the average person.

 

[jonny5]

I am not sure what you mean by the word "force".

Maybe if you listed 3 countries who you think were "forced" I might get an idea what you are talking about.

Calm

Cuba. Myanmar. Vietnam.

Calm

 

[jonny5]

That's true Jonny. But Sweden has that hallmark of a socialist state, big government. 55% of the pay of LOWEST paid workers goes in taxes - income, sales, residence etc. Higer up the income scale the proportion taken by government is , of course, still greater.

But it still primarily capitalist. The rich are far richer than the poor. Businesses are private.

 

[Lafayette]

Your response is very well done.

Bravo for using factual evidence*!

*It's out there, one must simply know look for it and that aint easy ...
_____________________________________

 

[calm]

Cuba. Myanmar. Vietnam.

My immediate thought was that in all these instances, the foreign capitalists intervened and provided material and financial support for anti-government protests and opposition. This caused huge unrest throughout the country.

In my view, and I admit I am not fully fluent with these particular countries, (but would research if you claim me to be incorrect), the governments of all these countries you mentioned needed to implement martial law in order to confront foreign instigators.

Chevron caused a lot of havoc in Burma or Mayanmar. And the U.S. backed NGO's as well.

According to B. Raman, the former director of India's foreign intelligence agency, RAW, in a December 2001 paper published by his institute entitled, "The USA's National Endowment For Democracy (NED): An Update," Helvey "was an officer of the Defence Intelligence Agency of the Pentagon, who had served in Vietnam and, subsequently, as the US Defence Attache in Yangon, Myanmar (1983 to 85), during which he clandestinely organised the Myanmarese students to work behind Aung San Suu Kyi and in collaboration with Bo Mya's Karen insurgent group. . . . He also trained in Hong Kong the student leaders from Beijing in mass demonstration techniques which they were to subsequently use in the Tiananmen Square incident of June 1989" and "is now believed to be acting as an adviser to the Falun Gong, the religious sect of China, in similar civil disobedience techniques."

Cuba and Vietnam is the same story.

Calm

 

[Lafayette]

Bernie tells us all about great Socialism is.
Sorry Uncle B, but if Socialism is so fantastic, why not discuss its failures?

Because the adoption of Social Democracy principles depends upon the citizens of the nation. Those of Europe are more developed than those of South or Central America.

There is also the fact that both South and Central American nations are of Spanish or Portuguese extract. Most efforts to revolt have been smothered or - as in Venezuela - have succeeded but the socialist-party in place is simply incompetent.

South America is no more advanced in terms of Social Democracy than the US. As in the north of America, in the south and center the rich plunder the poor.

And for the most part, the agricultural production is owned and managed by groups of family "elitists" (they own the arable land since centuries) who think "poverty" is the will of God.

There was a report on French TV last night (which I don't think you'll be seeing any time soon in the US) regarding bananas grown by DelMonte in Costa Rica. You should see how they are treating those laborers who work from 5 in the morning to 5 in the evening - and for a pittance. So that Americans can have "cheap bananas". (The French reporters were asked to leave the plantation.)

The workers went on strike last year for higher pay, and were all fired but not rehired, just replaced. The guy trying to unionize them has been beaten several times.

Next time you are having DelMonte-anything, think of the poor who broke their backs to process the fruit you are eating ...
____________________

 

[jonny5]

My immediate thought was that in all these instances, the foreign capitalists intervened and provided material and financial support for anti-government protests and opposition. This caused huge unrest throughout the country.

In my view, and I admit I am not fully fluent with these particular countries, (but would research if you claim me to be incorrect), the governments of all these countries you mentioned needed to implement martial law in order to confront foreign instigators.

Chevron caused a lot of havoc in Burma or Mayanmar. And the U.S. backed NGO's as well.

According to B. Raman, the former director of India's foreign intelligence agency, RAW, in a December 2001 paper published by his institute entitled, "The USA's National Endowment For Democracy (NED): An Update," Helvey "was an officer of the Defence Intelligence Agency of the Pentagon, who had served in Vietnam and, subsequently, as the US Defence Attache in Yangon, Myanmar (1983 to 85), during which he clandestinely organised the Myanmarese students to work behind Aung San Suu Kyi and in collaboration with Bo Mya's Karen insurgent group. . . . He also trained in Hong Kong the student leaders from Beijing in mass demonstration techniques which they were to subsequently use in the Tiananmen Square incident of June 1989" and "is now believed to be acting as an adviser to the Falun Gong, the religious sect of China, in similar civil disobedience techniques."

Cuba and Vietnam is the same story.

Calm

That doesnt make sense. The capitalists would have wanted to capitalism, not the socialism that the dictators imposed. So, back to the question. If socialism is so great, why dont democracies ever choose it? Your argument appears to be that capitalists force freedom on people, so the people have to force socialism right back.

How about the USSR? Socialists overthrew the monarchy and then forced socialism on the people. They didnt give anyone a choice. China. Same thing. Venezuela, same thing.

 

[Andalublue]

Venezuela, same thing.

The Chavistas have won numerous free and fair elections.

As far as countries where the voters have freely elected socialist governments, there's hundreds of them. Almost every Western European country has done so at some point. Ditto South America and Oceania. That you wish to maintain your own curious and individual definition of what constitutes 'socialist' is really neither here nor there.

 

[calm]

That doesnt make sense.

I am always under the impression that most human beings around the globe want some type of equitable sharing of wealth.

What are U.S. backed NGO's doin' in these countries fermenting dissent?

Why don't the Capitalists just leave these folks to their own decisions?

So what if a country wants some type of socialism? What business is it to any foreigner?

And if socialism is said to be such a failure, then let them fail on their own and then laugh about it later with "I told yuh so".

Truth is ..... Capitalism can't compete with a competing Socialist system and thus do everything they can to nip it in the bud.

Capitalism is all about "Free Markets" and not "Free Ideals"

Calm