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Bernie rejects questions about Socialism

Sietske22

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Abbazorkzog

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Bernie tells us all about great Socialism is.

He tells us Denmark is the high mark, even though they have NO minimum wage and a much lower corporate tax rate than the USA.

Now Bernie runs away from questions about the failures of Socialism in Latin America.

Bernie Sanders Isn't Interested In Answering Questions About Socialism In Venezuela | Video | RealClearPolitics

Sorry Uncle B, but if Socialism is so fantastic, why not discuss its failures?

Because he's not a Socialist. He's a Social Democrat.
 

Gaudius

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Bernie tells us all about great Socialism is.
He tells us Denmark is the high mark, even though they have NO minimum wage and a much lower corporate tax rate than the USA.
Denmark is ranked as number 12 on the Index of Economic Freedom, and USA as number 11 - in practice it is a tie between the two nations in this respect.
 

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Bernie tells us all about great Socialism is.

He tells us Denmark is the high mark, even though they have NO minimum wage and a much lower corporate tax rate than the USA.

Now Bernie runs away from questions about the failures of Socialism in Latin America.

Bernie Sanders Isn't Interested In Answering Questions About Socialism In Venezuela | Video | RealClearPolitics

Sorry Uncle B, but if Socialism is so fantastic, why not discuss its failures?

Because that's what liberals do ! What has that commie done in the 30 plus years on the taxpayers dime ? Why doesn't Bernie talk about the horrible way our Veterans were treated under HIS watch ?
 

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Mark Brzezinski, son of Zbigniew, was a post-Cold War Fulbright Scholar in Warsaw:

“I asked my students to define democracy. Expecting a discussion on individual liberties and authentically elected institutions, I was surprised to hear my students respond that to them, democracy means a government obligation to maintain a certain standard of living and to provide health care, education and housing for all. In other words, socialism.”
 

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Bernie tells us all about great Socialism is.

He tells us Denmark is the high mark, even though they have NO minimum wage and a much lower corporate tax rate than the USA.

Now Bernie runs away from questions about the failures of Socialism in Latin America.

Bernie Sanders Isn't Interested In Answering Questions About Socialism In Venezuela | Video | RealClearPolitics

Sorry Uncle B, but if Socialism is so fantastic, why not discuss its failures?

Venezuela was not a socialist country, it was a totalitarian state that used "throwing money out of helicopters" to keep the populace happy. I think that Sanders made the right choice in not answering the question, since it was grossly flawed question from the start.
 

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By your logic, the US is more socialist than Venezuela; it has a higher corporate tax rate and a higher minimum wage as a percentage of per capita income. Of course, your logic is deeply flawed. A minimum wage (by which you presumably mean legislated minimum wage, as Denmark's union-won minimums average higher than any legislated minimum in the world) tells you nothing about the ownership of the means of production. Taxes are a better measure, but why single out the corporate tax? Are the means of production socially owned if only they aren't corporately owned? Overall, Denmark has the highest taxes in the world.
 

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He tells us Denmark is the high mark, even though they have NO minimum wage and a much lower corporate tax rate than the USA.

They don't need a minimum wage! The people running businesses are not el-cheapos.

Besides, the average wage at $50K per year is just $2K less than the US. For which the Danes are entitled (male and female) 32-weeks maternity leave for the birth of child. Cash benefits include Family allowance paid for each child under the age of 18.

It ranges from €198 per month for children under the age of 3 to €123 for children aged between 7 and 17. Cash benefits include "Family allowance" paid for each child under the age of 18. It ranges from €198 per month for children under the age of 3 to €123 for children aged between 7 and 17. (NB: The euro is at 1.12 to the dollar today.)

That's not all, but just an indication of what a Social Democracy does for people in Europe. Life is not all roses in Denmark, or Europe for that matter? Denmark's unemployment rate at 6.3% is about 0.08% higher than the US.

Wow ... !

(Bernie's got it all wrong, wrong, wrong - has he ... ?)
_______________________________________________
 

calm

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One thing that I could never understand is that if Socialism is such a failure, why do the U.S. Capitalists find it such a threat?

Why is it that the U.S. Capitalists do everything in their power to destroy any form of socialism around the world?

Why wouldn't the Capitalists simply let the socialists collapse and fail on their very own rather than hire subversives to enter socialist countries in order to cause dissent and civil unrest, and thus force these socialist governments to spend funds on policing/military programs?

Can anybody find me the name of any country on the face of this earth who attempted a form of socialism in which the U.S. Capitalists did not zone in on and attempt to destroy with a coup?

It must mean that the Capitalists can't handle a competitive system because it would show the Capitalist to be nothing less than Economic Terrorists.

Calm
 
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THE NEED FOR PROGRESSIVE TAXATION

One thing that I could never understand is that if Socialism is such a failure, why do the U.S. Capitalists find it such a threat?

First of all, let's get the terminology correct. Socialism is or was a great failure, and Social Democracy is the predominant political movement today in Europe. There IS a big-difference between the two.

The fundamental difference is the ownership of the means of production (aka Capitalism). Socialism proscribes private ownership of production. Social Democracy does not, but it does adhere to the principle of Social Justice. Excerpt from the link:
Social justice is the fair and just relation between the individual and society. This is measured by the explicit and tacit terms for the distribution of wealth, opportunities for personal activity and social privileges.

In Western as well as in older Asian cultures, the concept of social justice has often referred to the process of ensuring that individuals fulfill their societal roles and receive what was their due from society.

In the current global grassroots movements for social justice, the emphasis has been on the breaking of barriers for social mobility, the creation of safety nets and a sense of "economic justice or fairness".

Social Justice assigns rights and duties in the institutions of society, which enables people to receive the basic benefits and burdens of cooperation. The relevant institutions often include taxation, social insurance, public health, public school, public services, labour law and regulation of markets, to ensure fair Distribution of wealth, and Equal opportunity and the Equality of outcome.

Social Justice is a simple political philosophy, but has made only a little headway in the US. Bernie is its chief promoter for the moment. But, it has a long, long roe-to-hoe in the US. The last time it had become a prevalent political objective was at the turn of 20th century when Teddy Roosevelt created the Progressive Party in 1912 as the vehicle for his attempt to get reelected as PotUS that failed.

MY POINT

Far too many people do not see the unfairness of Income Disparity instituted by Reckless Ronnie's administration in the 1980s. They think it is "all right" that so few have garnered so very much from a flat-rate taxation that is systematically prejudicial to the benefit of upper-incomes. Nothing can or will be done until the taxation at the upper-levels of income (beyond $100K of household income) is totally rethought/rewritten with a far more Progressive Taxation to replace the flat-rates at 30%.

And, of course, that will never happen for as long as most of the American electorate (that votes) wants conservatives to run the "gummint".
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calm

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THE NEED FOR PROGRESSIVE TAXATION



First of all, let's get the terminology correct. Socialism is or was a great failure, and Social Democracy is the predominant political movement today in Europe. There IS a big-difference between the two.

I shortened your quote for bevity, while wanting you to know that I had replied.

If we used Venezuela (and many other countries in Latin America since 1980 at least) as examples, why are the U.S. Capitalists so intent on destroying these social governments and/or systems?

Is it the competition of systems and where predominately Social Systems would outshine the Capitalist Systems?

Calm
 

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WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND

... why are the U.S. Capitalists so intent on destroying these social governments and/or systems?

Yours is a damn-fine question!

I think it is a bit out of ignorance confusing social-democracy with socialism and socialism with Communism. And a lot about the fact that the Soviet Union was a major nuclear threat to the US (and Europe) for all the postwar years from 1950 (when it tested its first atom bomb in 1949) till it broke apart all by itself in 1991.

The confusion was bound to happen.

There are some people who never forget, and since they are older, they confuse social-democracy with socialism ... and hate all it stands for, Bernie or no Bernie. Social Democracy, as practiced, is about spending tax-money on caring for and developing a nation's people such that they can "sustain themselves and prosper". Our American Democracy spends far too much DoD-money to "protect our way-of-life", and too little investing in the People Development necessary to assure the result is equitable. Not equal, but equitable.

It's a fact that Americans are hard-workers, but if a market-economy has two "returns" (a Return-on-Investment Capital and a Return-on-Labor), then America has not understood that it needs applied fairness to assure that not too much of the Return goes to the former and too little to the latter.

The imbalance can be corrected by the government's ability to tax hallucinatory upper-incomes. Puh-leeze, who needs a megabuck to live richly? Half a megabuck will do very nicely indeed. So, our goal should be not to emphasize RoI such that RoL is stifled. But we rarely ever hear talk about Return-on-Labor.

MY POINT

Our attitudes towards work are a short-sighted dichotomy. We ALL work because our Labor-input allows us to buy goods/services, the purchase of which makes a market-economy function. That logic is circular. "In an economy, what goes around comes around".

What we have not learned is that what "goes around" for some is no where nearly comparable with what "comes around" for others.

Unless income-taxation is employed to make it fair and equitable, which isn't being done ...
_____________________________________________
 

VanceMack

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Bernie always had a thang for central/south American communist dictators...wonder if his love pump has dried up.
 

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They don't need a minimum wage! The people running businesses are not el-cheapos.

Besides, the average wage at $50K per year is just $2K less than the US. For which the Danes are entitled (male and female) 32-weeks maternity leave for the birth of child. Cash benefits include Family allowance paid for each child under the age of 18.

It ranges from €198 per month for children under the age of 3 to €123 for children aged between 7 and 17. Cash benefits include "Family allowance" paid for each child under the age of 18. It ranges from €198 per month for children under the age of 3 to €123 for children aged between 7 and 17. (NB: The euro is at 1.12 to the dollar today.)

That's not all, but just an indication of what a Social Democracy does for people in Europe. Life is not all roses in Denmark, or Europe for that matter? Denmark's unemployment rate at 6.3% is about 0.08% higher than the US.

Wow ... !

(Bernie's got it all wrong, wrong, wrong - has he ... ?)
_______________________________________________

Denmark has averaged low to negative GDP growth since 2007. It ranks as one of the bottom feeders in the EU. Not a country the US would want to emulate.

IRe7mdb.jpg
 

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WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND

Just so I understand you correctly .....

Social Democracy is many things ....

Is it just financial equality or are you in favor of national healthcare for all, and stuff like that?

Do you mean increase taxes on the Rich Folks to implement National Social Programs? Or simply tax the Rich Folks in order to pay the Poor Folks a higher wage?

And another point I would want to make .....

How is it possible for a person to open a business and pay somebody less than a living wage? Nevermind, if he pays what the minimum wage might be. I am talking a living wage.

I think that if a person creates a business plan which leaves them unable to pay a living wage, and then urges government subsidies, is totally wrong.

Is it the taxpayers fault that the new business owner created a false business plan and that he failed to foresee labor costs?

I don't think that anybody should be able to open a business if they can't pay a living wage without a government subsidy.

Calm
 

calm

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QUOTE]

Quit giving me false charts and graphs.

These are not worth the ions of icons that they were posted with.

I remember a couple of years ago when the OECD put out a research paper detailing a projection for Canada. All they did was call 8 bank managers and claimed the information was accurate.

Every financial statement is corrupt and fraudulent.

The Capitalists have rigged everything from Libor, rates, gold and on and on. Even the rating agencies were giving fraudulent information.

Capitalists have been rigging and manipulating all financial indexcies and measurements for the past 50 years at least.

Take a walk down the street and count the homeless would be a more accurate assessment. Maybe check out the food banks.

Calm
 
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PoS

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Quit giving me false charts and graphs.

These are not worth the ions of icons that they were posted with.

I remember a couple of years ago when the OECD put out a research paper detailing a projection for Canada. All they did was call 8 bank managers and claimed the information was accurate.

Every financial statement is corrupt and fraudulent.

The Capitalists have rigged everything from Libor, rates, gold and on and on. Even the rating agencies were giving fraudulent information.

Capitalists have been rigging and manipulating all financial indexcies and measurements for the past 50 years at least.

Take a walk down the street and count the homeless would be a more accurate assessment. Maybe check out the food banks.

Calm

So you claim the IMF gives out false charts and graphs because it doesnt jive with your worldview. Riight. Show me proof that its wrong then.
 

calm

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So you claim the IMF gives out false charts and graphs because it doesnt jive with your worldview. Riight. Show me proof that its wrong then.

The IMF is a political organization.

Calm
 

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I don't think that anybody should be able to open a business if they can't pay a living wage without a government subsidy.

You are making some gross over-simplifications regarding government expenditure.

Moreover, you seem to think that paying for a national healthcare system is different from paying for other public-services. They are all government expenditures intended for the good of the nation as a whole.

Why do YOU chose to single out national healthcare as a "questionable public subvention"? And how do you make a connection between what a government provides as social-support and somebody opening a business? There is no direct relationship between the two, because they serve different "market needs".

As I tried to explain, in a social-democracy, priorities are made for the general welfare of the community. No distinction is made as to what is the relative importance of one or another. They all have their justified reasons to be public services.

And, in a country that has serious health-problems due to obesity, you seem to think that private-enterprise is sufficient to provide the nation with costly health-care services? Do you not understand that the Total Health-care Costs per capita in the US are double that of elsewhere in developed countries who have identical health-care services, primarily because they remain private enterprises? (See here.)

The US having double the per capita Healthcare-cost as those countries with National HealthCare Systems, and roughly the same standard-of-living and market-economies is aberrant. Why should that be if the ways-and-means of delivering HC-services was not seriously distorted because of the much higher-cost of privatized-medicine due to a manifest lack of competition?

(Could we not be doing "other things" with that extra-cost? Like postsecondary education that is very low cost for all comers thus guaranteeing them a good job at a good salary?)

Do you not understand why some public-services - like law enforcement, fire-fighting, defense, paramedics, libraries, public transportation, waste management, highways, food and drug protection, etc., etc. - are run as either city, state or national entities? (Even if the work is often subcontracted to private enterprises.)

And, so, why not a National Public Health-care System ... ?
 

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You are making some gross over-simplifications

I think I was misunderstood.

I am a socialist at heart.

I am all for National Healthcare.

I am totally against government subsidies to corporations like WalMart who pay workers the bare minimum and then the government pays these same workers supplementary monies because they can't survive on Walmart wages.

Calm
 

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I think I was misunderstood. I am a socialist at heart

Calm

Yes, I know. It's obvious from your portrait on the left. I was just making the point, perhaps in an overhanded way. Are apologies in order? Then, I apologize.

You see, there is really no issue about Social Democracy in Europe. Half a billion people are quite happy with their lot in life, even if unemployment is very high.

But, here is the occasion to discuss Social Democracy because of only one man. Bernie Sanders. (Boy, did he take a long-time coming!)

So, yes, maybe I am overdoing it a bit. But, I am so much more upset that a nerd like the Dunderhead could possibly be PotUS. I never imagined that so many of my fellow Americans could be so - uh, lacking in discernment.

Well, it's not a "done thing", so there is still hope. But the fact that such a false, improvised person could sway so many minds makes one wonder what is going on in those minds ...
__________________________
 

calm

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I would not put too much faith in the polls.

And, not to worry about Trump, he is going to self-implode before the convention. He does not have the political skills to succeed.

About a long-time coming ...

Have you read this article:

Bernie, The Donald, and the Sins of Liberalism
An American Version of Class Struggle
By Steve Fraser
June 02, 2016
Tomgram: Steve Fraser, How the Age of Acquiescence Came to an End | TomDispatch

Calm
 
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