[W:534] Ben Gurion On The Reaction Of The Arabs To The Creation Of Israel

[Fledermaus]

Your ignorant rants about how the Palestinians are or should be compared to the Nazis only shows your own racism. You are airbrushing out the US/UK/Israeli/PA coup attempt to oust Hamas after the election ? Now why would you do such a thing ? Is it so hard to accept that the westerners and their allies you so keenly revere only support democratic votes if they think the people voted the right way ?

So many western indoctrinated partisan hacks here it only shows how effective the propaganda is

The Grand Mufti, the religious leader of the "Palestinians", actively aided and abetted the Nazis in their genocide of the Jews.

Historical fact.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Your ignorant rants about how the Palestinians are or should be compared to the Nazis only shows your own racism. You are airbrushing out the US/UK/Israeli/PA coup attempt to oust Hamas after the election ? Now why would you do such a thing ? Is it so hard to accept that the westerners and their allies you so keenly revere only support democratic votes if they think the people voted the right way ?

So many western indoctrinated partisan hacks here it only shows how effective the propaganda is

You are the one that supports a terrorist group. Even the Arab's consider Hamas as terrorists. The only reason Hamas has any political power at all is by the fear they instill the in Palestinian people.

Terrorists should be rooted out where ever we find them.

 

[oneworld2]

Israel should make an offer to buy a portion of the Sinai from Egypt that they can't refuse....................... and leave the Palestinians to the mercy of Hamas.

The world will finally understand that it's never been about land as much as it is about radical Islamists wanting to exterminate the Jews.

Hamas are a relatively recent addition so that kind of rubbishes your theory. It has always been about land/nationalism. Recall too that it wasn't " radical Islamists" that the Zionist Jews fleeing to Palestine were trying to escape. They were trying to escape the antisemites in Europe. Blaming the Muslims/Arabs for the ravages of European antisemitism is about what I would expect to see here, even if it is obvious junk.

 

[oneworld2]

You are the one that supports a terrorist group. Even the Arab's consider Hamas as terrorists. The only reason Hamas has any political power at all is by the fear they instill the in Palestinian people.

No I apply the same standards across the board, or at least try to. You people ? Nah and demonstrably so

Terrorists should be rooted out where ever we find them.

Your own nation are the biggest state terrorists on the planet with a rap sheet that makes Hamas look like rank amateurs............ thx for proving again my point about how a good western indoctrination prevents you from seeing the obvious.

 

[oneworld2]

The Grand Mufti, the religious leader of the "Palestinians", actively aided and abetted the Nazis in their genocide of the Jews.

Historical fact.

You are just confirming, with every post, how you are happy with the Palestinians being compared to the Nazis but not for the Jews to be compared to them in as clear an example of the selective misuse of " facts" to try to demonize the targeted group.................. standard tactics of those wishing to promote racism. It's just that simple.

You don't think the Jewish groups working with the Nazis in the early years were guilty of " aided and abetted the Nazis " in their wish to rid Germany of it's Jews? This was before the setting up of the death camps ? You didn't read those quotes from Ben Gurion about how he saw and used those Germans ?

All the above is historically correct too but you don't want to talk about it or see it get some exposure here. The reasons are obvious and every post you make screams racism. Then you try to call others, whose posts don't, a racist lols. It is pathetic.

 

[oneworld2]

That Zionist Jews arrived in Palestine prior to the holocaust is just another distasteful tactic of insinuating that they had no reasons in the 1880s (the movement actually started as early as 1870, but never mind).

I leave the " insinuations" to the dishonest , which would be those like yourself. Massive evidence for which is to be found all over this thread and others here. The context, which you have removed for obviously dishonest reasons, was whether the Holocaust was the " start". I pointed out that it wasn't which is both correct and inline with the context. That you constantly have to misrepresent people that rubbish your arguments shows the true nature of you as a debater, in a word, weak

Never heard of suppression in the Russian Pale and pogroms there, eh?

Yes I have knowledge of the Russian pogroms and how they accounted for many of the early Jewish folk heading for Palestine but that was NOT the context with how the Holocaust is supposed to have been the " start ". You are evidently not going to admit to the constant dishonest tactics you are compelled to use because it's just not there for people with little or no integrity to do so.

The additional claim that anti-semitism is NOT on the rise again in Europe is either blatantly stupid, blatantly ignorant, or blatantly dishonest.

No, it's due to knowledge of the situation and how " antisemitism " has been redefined to mean opposition to Israeli actions/policies by those who use allegations of "antisemitism " to try to shield the Jewish state from the crimes they commit against the Palestinians and others. By far the biggest rise in bigotry is to be found directed at the Muslim communities in Europe in the post 9/11 world and you can take a bow for playing your own part in it

 

[oneworld2]

Hamas leadership could pack their bags (and their substantial bank accounts) if an accord with Israel were ever reached.

Their whole Raison d'être would go poof.

Nope, they need the conflict most of all and that's why they, for one, need to keep it alive.

Israel needs the conflict every bit as much as Hamas does but I don't see you mentioning it or positing the packing of bags on the Jewish extremist side. Just the latest example of many that sees you applying different standards to the differing parties in a bid to make sense of your own biases

 

[Fledermaus]

You are just confirming, with every post, how you are happy with the Palestinians being compared to the Nazis but not for the Jews to be compared to them in as clear an example of the selective misuse of " facts" to try to demonize the targeted group.................. standard tactics of those wishing to promote racism. It's just that simple.

You don't think the Jewish groups working with the Nazis in the early years were guilty of " aided and abetted the Nazis " in their wish to rid Germany of it's Jews? This was before the setting up of the death camps ? You didn't read those quotes from Ben Gurion about how he saw and used those Germans ?

All the above is historically correct too but you don't want to talk about it or see it get some exposure here. The reasons are obvious and every post you make screams racism. Then you try to call others, whose posts don't, a racist lols. It is pathetic.

More verbose blather.

Remember.

Zionists "aided and abetted" the Nazis by trying to free the Jews from an ever deteriorating situation.

The Grand Mufti aided and abetted the Nazis by helping with propaganda, recruiting Nazi SS members, etc. as they strove to butcher the Nazis.

HUGE difference.

A difference that will never change.

 

[Fledermaus]

I leave the " insinuations" to the dishonest , which would be those like yourself. Massive evidence for which is to be found all over this thread and others here. The context, which you have removed for obviously dishonest reasons, was whether the Holocaust was the " start". I pointed out that it wasn't which is both correct and inline with the context. That you constantly have to misrepresent people that rubbish your arguments shows the true nature of you as a debater, in a word, weak



Yes I have knowledge of the Russian pogroms and how they accounted for many of the early Jewish folk heading for Palestine but that was NOT the context with how the Holocaust is supposed to have been the " start ". You are evidently not going to admit to the constant dishonest tactics you are compelled to use because it's just not there for people with little or no integrity to do so.


No, it's due to knowledge of the situation and how " antisemitism " has been redefined to mean opposition to Israeli actions/policies by those who use allegations of "antisemitism " to try to shield the Jewish state from the crimes they commit against the Palestinians and others. By far the biggest rise in bigotry is to be found directed at the Muslim communities in Europe in the post 9/11 world and you can take a bow for playing your own part in it

The Holocaust was the pinnacle of Anti-Semitism.

And again, antisemitic attacks are on the rise and have nothing to do with Israel.

Nor does the number of anti Muslim hate/crimes diminish the fact antisemitism is rising.

It is proven with statistics and numbers.

Watchdog reports record number of anti-Semitic incidents in U.S. last year

Jews in the United States suffered the largest number of anti-Semitic incidents last year since the Anti-Defamation League began collecting records 40 years ago, the racism watchdog said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

Infographic: Anti-Semitic Crime Continues to Rise in Germany

This chart shows the number of police-recorded anti-Semitic crimes in Germany.

www.statista.com

 

[RetiredUSN]

No I apply the same standards across the board, or at least try to. You people ? Nah and demonstrably so


Your own nation are the biggest state terrorists on the planet with a rap sheet that makes Hamas look like rank amateurs............ thx for proving again my point about how a good western indoctrination prevents you from seeing the obvious.

The USA isn't listed as a terrorist group. Hama is.

You lose.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Hamas are a relatively recent addition so that kind of rubbishes your theory. It has always been about land/nationalism. Recall too that it wasn't " radical Islamists" that the Zionist Jews fleeing to Palestine were trying to escape. They were trying to escape the antisemites in Europe. Blaming the Muslims/Arabs for the ravages of European antisemitism is about what I would expect to see here, even if it is obvious junk.

Hamas is nothing but a group of reinvented Islamist terrorists.

 

[oneworld2]

The Holocaust was the pinnacle of Anti-Semitism.

And was committed by white Europeans. Note, not Arabs or Muslims. Note too that even armed with the knowledge of the death camps some Zionist Jews still held the Brits to be worse for Jews than the Nazis. That you haven't commented on this is just an obvious ignoring of certain facts that upset your preferred view, which is basically to stick it to the Arabs/Palestinians by selective use of some facts and the ignoring of other facts. And we all know what groups rely on that tactic.

And again, antisemitic attacks are on the rise and have nothing to do with Israel.

Wrong, even one of the links you cited refers to " politically moyivated crime". If you change the definition to include previously out of range situations guess what ? You get a rise in those situations. No magic, just the application of logic and reason, shocking isn't it?

Nor does the number of anti Muslim hate/crimes diminish the fact antisemitism is rising.

If you were to change the definitions the same thing would occur

It is proven with statistics and numbers.

Watchdog reports record number of anti-Semitic incidents in U.S. last year

Jews in the United States suffered the largest number of anti-Semitic incidents last year since the Anti-Defamation League began collecting records 40 years ago, the racism watchdog said on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

Infographic: Anti-Semitic Crime Continues to Rise in Germany

This chart shows the number of police-recorded anti-Semitic crimes in Germany.

www.statista.com

If you change the definition so it includes criticism of Israel/Israeli policies you will see a rise in instances, it's just that obvious and easy to understand. You just need to look at it from an objective pov and that's you out.

 

[NO1]

Where I see little to no good in Netanyahu, not to mention the people he has to lie down with to stay in power (and whose fleas he constantly has to wake up with), Israel is a democracy where elections are regularly held.

As opposed to Nazi Germany where, once power was gained via elections, those were done away with completely for the duration of the Nazi rule.

Pretty much like in Gaza where Hamas, once it secured the vote, clearly had no intention of calling for elections ever again, either.

We have too many elections and as it seems we are on the way to another round of elections in a few months...

 

[oneworld2]

Hamas is nothing but a group of reinvented Islamist terrorists.

How many times are you forced into a new position once the old one has been shown to be rubbish ?

 

[oneworld2]

The USA isn't listed as a terrorist group. Hama is.

You lose.

It wouldn't be classed as a " terrorist group " seeing that it is a state lol..................... it is the worlds leading state terrorist and has been for decades , way longer than Hamas.

 

[oneworld2]

More verbose blather.

Remember.

Zionists "aided and abetted" the Nazis by trying to free the Jews from an ever deteriorating situation.

The Grand Mufti aided and abetted the Nazis by helping with propaganda, recruiting Nazi SS members, etc. as they strove to butcher the Nazis.

HUGE difference.

A difference that will never change.

Your posts are just completely evasive rehashes that avoid the questions put to you. Have some conviction to actually address questions put to you instead of just ignoring them and stating the exact same thing that has been questioned

 

[Fledermaus]

And was committed by white Europeans. Note, not Arabs or Muslims. Note too that even armed with the knowledge of the death camps some Zionist Jews still held the Brits to be worse for Jews than the Nazis. That you haven't commented on this is just an obvious ignoring of certain facts that upset your preferred view, which is basically to stick it to the Arabs/Palestinians by selective use of some facts and the ignoring of other facts. And we all know what groups rely on that tactic.



Wrong, even one of the links you cited refers to " politically moyivated crime". If you change the definition to include previously out of range situations guess what ? You get a rise in those situations. No magic, just the application of logic and reason, shocking isn't it?



If you were to change the definitions the same thing would occur


If you change the definition so it includes criticism of Israel/Israeli policies you will see a rise in instances, it's just that obvious and easy to understand. You just need to look at it from an objective pov and that's you out.

Committed by white Europeans AIDED AND ABETTED by Mufti of Jerusalem — Amin al-Husseini who actively supported Hitler, provided propaganda for Hitler, recruited for Hitler and approved of Hitler's concentration camps....

 

[Fledermaus]

Your posts are just completely evasive rehashes that avoid the questions put to you. Have some conviction to actually address questions put to you instead of just ignoring them and stating the exact same thing that has been questioned

Zionists "aided and abetted" the Nazis by trying to free the Jews from an ever deteriorating situation.

The Grand Mufti aided and abetted the Nazis by helping with propaganda, recruiting Nazi SS members, etc. as they strove to butcher the Nazis.

HUGE difference.

A difference that will never change.

 

[Fledermaus]

It wouldn't be classed as a " terrorist group " seeing that it is a state lol..................... it is the worlds leading state terrorist and has been for decades , way longer than Hamas.

 

[RetiredUSN]

It wouldn't be classed as a " terrorist group " seeing that it is a state lol..................... it is the worlds leading state terrorist and has been for decades , way longer than Hamas.

Why is Hamas on the terrorist list and the USA not?

 

[Chagos]

We have too many elections and as it seems we are on the way to another round of elections in a few months...

That's part of the price one has to pay for living in a democratic state, but it's also one of the benefits.

Namely in that a government that cannot secure a sufficient number of votes has no other alternative but to keep trying.

Dictatorships don't have that problem.

 

[Fishking]

I saved this for a separate reply just to ridicule your pathetic tactics
Correct, wrt the Arabs in Palestine. That's the context you are now trying to strip away because you too are compelled to play the antisemite card. So early too, talk about play your hand.

Zionist Jews were arriving in Palestine from the late 1880s onwards, the Holocaust would have to wait another half century to happen. So, yep, it didn't start with the Holocaust which must be gutting for you, having played a duff card already.

Because you are an idiot? Because you believe your own bs without ever bother to find out first ? Because your mind is not open?

A bunch of typing that didn't make an actual point. Bravo, you're truly talented in this regard. You said you were "saving this" for a special reply and this is what you came up with? Rofl...OK.

People do realize that and your arrogant assumption that they don't reveals more about you than you will probably understand. People can support their having a haven/state without supporting the ousting of/crimes against another people in order to achieve it. That the Arabs are paying the debt for European antisemitism doesn't appear to register with you. This might have something to do with that Western indoctrination you appear to be locked in. It really does colour your commentary .

No, you don't understand this as the premise of your OP is begrudging the very existence of Israel.

Antisemitism is not on the rise again in Europe , you want to know what is ? Islamophobia, brought on by the post 9/11 world and the bs western " war on terror" ( second edition ). That criticism of Israeli policies has been tagged onto " antisemitism " is what you are actually referring to. It waters down the term so much so as to mock it imo. You can be duped into believing that criticism of some Israeli policies or objections to the crimes being committed against the Palestinians is " antisemitism " but some of us are wise to the difference. You should read more Orwell on how klanguage is manipulated to create false realities

The Alarming Rise of Anti-Semitism in Europe | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)

There are many European nations but if we were to oust one of the populations from a country there so as to create a Muslim nation where it stood to aid those Muslims fleeing the attacks and intrigues that have ruined their lives with the phoney war on terror, be sure, the same resentment and conflicts would follow.

There are a multitude of Muslim countries. Muslims were never in a position of *only* existing as an outsider group in other countries everywhere in the world and then subjected to systematic slaughter in the millions. Also, 20% of the population of Israel is Arab, and it would be much higher if there weren't multiple attempts at Jewish genocide by neighboring countries and decades of terrorist attacks. Coexistence happens now, and could happen more.

That this has had to be pointed out to you only shows how you too are guilty of applying different standards to the Arabs than you would to white westerners, just like the system that educated you envisioned.

What had to be pointed out to me? That you're terrible at making analogies?

So, I reject your jumping on the boat of false accusations of my alleged antisemitism and would go further to say that it is your own commentary that is littered with a selective application of standards in order to support a racist view of the Arab side of conflict. That's what the above clearly states. People in glass houses and all.

It is what it is. Israel isn't perfect but they aren't, by any means, the worst country out there. That they garner so much attention by people like you, while other countries get ignored, speaks for itself.

 

[NO1]

Zionists "aided and abetted" the Nazis by trying to free the Jews from an ever deteriorating situation.

The Grand Mufti aided and abetted the Nazis by helping with propaganda, recruiting Nazi SS members, etc. as they strove to butcher the Nazis.

HUGE difference.

A difference that will never change.

Indeed.
Also the mufti submitted to the Nazis a draft of German-Arab cooperation which says -
"Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy."

On the other hand Ben Gurion recruited thousands of Jews fight against the Nazis. That's shows how ridiculous his arguments are.

 

[oneworld2]

Indeed.
Also the mufti submitted to the Nazis a draft of German-Arab cooperation which says -
"Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy."

On the other hand Ben Gurion recruited thousands of Jews fight against the Nazis. That's shows how ridiculous his arguments are.

Funny how you see no problem jumping on the collaboration of some Palestinians with the Nazis during WW2 but cry foul when others mention the attempted Zionist/Jewish collaboration of some Jews with them. Obviously you see no contradiction or hypocrisy in your position. Self awareness playing second fiddle to the cause lol

If the Nazis had accepted the Zionist requests for collaboration we would no doubt be talking about Lehi raised units to fight alongside the Nazis against the British. The only problem for this was the Nazi rejection of their advances.

My arguments, I feel, are solidly based on a waaaay more evenhanded approach than your own Israeli sponsored hasbara, as can be witnessed again in the above example.

You have yet to comment on Ben Gurions statement about preferring half the Jewish kids of Germany dead and the other half in Palestine rather than them all alive but living in the UK, or on the Lehi leaderships wanting a fascist state modelled on the European examples, of which Nazism was one , or the view that the Brits were worse to the Jews than Hitler was at the time of the Holocaust itself. Surprising? Not in the least.

It is your own arguments that are full of contradictions and selectivity and thus the resort to ridiculous accusations about people who refuse to be silenced by your hysterical and cowardly claims of Holocaust denial and or antisemitism ( take me on with this is the invitation offered to you, I dare you lol )

You have latched onto two things in order to attempt to construct an argument

1 That ONE of the quotes ascribed to Ben Gurion in the OP could be classed as hearsay. The other that are well documented and thus irrefutable which say the same thing being ignored by yourself.

2 That you can peddle Palestinian collaboration with the Nazis ONLY because the Jews that tried it were rejected by them.

 

[oneworld2]

A bunch of typing that didn't make an actual point. Bravo, you're truly talented in this regard. You said you were "saving this" for a special reply and this is what you came up with? Rofl...OK.



No, you don't understand this as the premise of your OP is begrudging the very existence of Israel.



The Alarming Rise of Anti-Semitism in Europe | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)



There are a multitude of Muslim countries. Muslims were never in a position of *only* existing as an outsider group in other countries everywhere in the world and then subjected to systematic slaughter in the millions. Also, 20% of the population of Israel is Arab, and it would be much higher if there weren't multiple attempts at Jewish genocide by neighboring countries and decades of terrorist attacks. Coexistence happens now, and could happen more.



What had to be pointed out to me? That you're terrible at making analogies?



It is what it is. Israel isn't perfect but they aren't, by any means, the worst country out there. That they garner so much attention by people like you, while other countries get ignored, speaks for itself.

You lied about the OP and likely complained to the Mods about how I responded to your inferences of antisemitism so you can go and chat to people of your own type because this poster has nothing but contempt for your actions/style