[W:534] Ben Gurion On The Reaction Of The Arabs To The Creation Of Israel

[oneworld2]

That's part of the price one has to pay for living in a democratic state, but it's also one of the benefits.

Namely in that a government that cannot secure a sufficient number of votes has no other alternative but to keep trying.

Dictatorships don't have that problem.

Control by the Business Party IS a dictatorship of sorts so your own preferred heroes are not as shiney as you present them as................... nothing about the attempted Israeli et al coup attempt to rubbish the democratic will of the people of Gaza ? Didn't think so.

 

[oneworld2]

Something (bolded by me) which Nasser repeated in 1967.

Innocent passage only applies when the shipping is innocent. There is nothing in sea laws that compels a state to allow the shipping of a country that poses a threat to it to pass through its territorial waters

 

[Chagos]

Looks like we have agreement on the justification of the Gaza blockade.

Beyond which, the will of the Gaza people remains beyond discovery. Simply because Hamas frowns on opinion polls as much as it does on any further election.

 

[oneworld2]

Looks like we have agreement on the justification of the Gaza blockade.

Beyond which, the will of the Gaza people remains beyond discovery. Simply because Hamas frowns on opinion polls as much as it does on any further election.

Looks like we see you justifying the right of the Palestinians of Gaza to attack Israel

The crucial difference being that the occupation of Gaza predates Hamas and that your comment on the Straits of Tiran was that it was a justifiable cause for war. So, you think a blockade is a justifiable cause for a war when the blockade is by Arabs against Israel but not when it is Israel against Arabs ? Am I surprised by the contradiction , nah.

The will of the Gazans was shit on by the self proclaimed champions of democracy and you just cannot even bring yourself to even contemplate a response to that. Shocked!!

 

[Chagos]

If one decides to justify the blockade of Tiran on the principle of it having been directed against a state hostile to one's own, the same goes for blockading Gaza.

No amount of mental gyrations to the point of making oneself look totally absurd gets anyone around that, least of all the OP here.

The additional and equally idiotic attempt to tell others what they're thinking being just another demonstration of one's own absurdity of argument (not to even mention logic).

Whether Gaza was occupied prior to the coming of Hamas (or not) having absolutely nothing to do with anything here at all.

 

[Chagos]

Incidentally, the disengagement of IDF from Hamas also preceded Hamas (a political party whose Charter expressly stated -and still does- the aim of destroying Israel) being elected there.

So Gaza was not occupied anymore when blockaded because what need for a blockade would there have been, had it remained occupied?

Just to cut thru the OP's constant attempts at obfuscating clear issues by drowning them in bull.

 

[oneworld2]

If one decides to justify the blockade of Tiran on the principle of it having been directed against a state hostile to one's own, the same goes for blockading Gaza.

The analogy fails because the Straits of Tiran is Egyptian coastal water, whereas the blockade of Gaza is prosecuted with a blockade of Gazan territorial water, note not Israeli coastal water.

Once more , if you consider the blocking of the Straits of Tiran as a just reason for Israeli attacks on Egyptians then you are engaging in obvious hypocrisy if you then cry about Gazan attacks on Israel because of a blockade of their own territory and crucially THEIR own coastal waters. Shut down Israeli coastal waters by all means but to shut down the passage of waters that are not your own is a different thing altogether and you appear to be blissfully ignorant of it.

But that's your posts to a tee, differing standards for differing groups based on your own personal biases

 

[oneworld2]

Incidentally, the disengagement of IDF from Hamas also preceded Hamas (a political party whose Charter expressly stated -and still does- the aim of destroying Israel) being elected there.

The " the disengagement of IDF from Hamas " lol what gobbledegook you speak while trying to rubbish others on allegations their aversity to clarity. Irony meters look away now.

The " disengagement" was , in fact, the moving of the prison guards from the prison interior to the perimeter fence and still constitutes an occupation in the majority view, it's called effective control in case you have never heard of it.

So Gaza was not occupied anymore when blockaded because what need for a blockade would there have been, had it remained occupied?

It was occupied before the disengagement and it remains occupied after it due to the applicability of effective control over the territory, water , land and air.

Just to cut thru the OP's constant attempts at obfuscating clear issues by drowning them in bull.

That would be a charge that applies to your commentary only but self awareness isn't a strong suit of yours imo

 

[oneworld2]

So what have we gleaned so far?

That the contention of the OP , that Ben Gurion was more sympathetic to what Zionism meant for the Palestinian Arabs than many of the self proclaimed " pro Israel" folk here, has stood the attempts at refutation quite well.

Additionally ,many of the posters here that have sought to accuse the OPer of all sorts of treacherous positions have failed miserably.

 

[Fishking]

You lied about the OP and likely complained to the Mods about how I responded to your inferences of antisemitism so you can go and chat to people of your own type because this poster has nothing but contempt for your actions/style

My analysis of your OP is spot on, which is why you can't answer why Israel garners so much attention by certain people when it's existence is literally about the survival of a people and they are surrounded by much worse actors who get ignored.

 

[oneworld2]

My analysis of your OP is spot on, which is why you can't answer why Israel garners so much attention by certain people when it's existence is literally about the survival of a people and they are surrounded by much worse actors who get ignored.

No, your " analysis" of the OP was that it was " begrudging the very existence of Israel. " and that is a complete lie. A lie that you then used to make an accusation from. And you expect to be treated with respect ? Or fail to understand that people might bomb you out over employing such tactics ? And to top it all you go crying to the Mods over it

 

[Fishking]

No, your " analysis" of the OP was that it was " begrudging the very existence of Israel. " and that is a complete lie. A lie that you then used to make an accusation from. And you expect to be treated with respect ? Or fail to understand that people might bomb you out over employing such tactics ? And to top it all you go crying to the Mods over it

Someone is crying, for sure.

 

[oneworld2]

Someone is crying, for sure.

Not someone but many and I might just have to throw you all a dry t shirt if it carries on. You lied about the OP so as to piggy back a slur off of it, slam dunk so if that's the way you want to discuss things, along with crying to the Mods here when people turn that junk back onto you then don't expect to be treated with anything other than justifiable contempt. Obvious really.

 

[Chagos]

What we have gleaned is that the OP is as prone to make his own narrative fit his Hamas propaganda goals as much as he accuses others of doing that for Israel.

Classical projection issue exacerbating the displayed treachery.

The alleged claim of shutting off another's coastal waters to be an "illegal" act adding to the displayed absurdities.

Clearly the OP has never heard of the Cuba crisis nor, for that matter, the naval blockade against French coasts during the Napoleonic wars, not to mention Germany and the entente attempting to blockade each other during WWI.

The claim that the naval blockade of Gaza is the reason for Hamas attacks on Israel is a fine example of standing cause and effect on their heads, with the idea of preventing Hamas from arming itself via the sea by Israel closing its own waters presenting an additional display of absurdity.

Next thing we're gonna hear is that destroying the Hamas tunnels into Israel (and Egypt) is immoral.

In the absence of any knowledge of the actual RL situation in the area (let alone any personal experience), deflections, obfuscations, prevarications and outright lying are the only course the OP is left with.

That is to be gleaned here.

 

[oneworld2]

What we have gleaned is that the OP is as prone to make his own narrative fit his Hamas propaganda goals as much as he accuses others of doing that for Israel.

Classical projection issue exacerbating the displayed treachery.

So applying the same standards to Jew and Arab is engaging in " Hamas propaganda " ?? mmmmmmmmm That is actually priceless in it's revalatory capacity of your own actions here........doubling down on the projection so as to try to charge it to others and then having the temerity to talk of the " treachery " of others. Comedy gold!!

 

[RetiredUSN]

So applying the same standards to Jew and Arab is engaging in " Hamas propaganda " ?? mmmmmmmmm That is actually priceless in it's revalatory capacity of your own actions here........doubling down on the projection so as to try to charge it to others and then having the temerity to talk of the " treachery " of others. Comedy gold!!

Who pays you for your time?

 

[Chagos]

One can also glean the OP's dishonest tactic of truncating posts he responds to, conveniently circumnavigating any other points made in those.

 

[Fledermaus]

Funny how you see no problem jumping on the collaboration of some Palestinians with the Nazis during WW2 but cry foul when others mention the attempted Zionist/Jewish collaboration of some Jews with them. Obviously you see no contradiction or hypocrisy in your position. Self awareness playing second fiddle to the cause lol

If the Nazis had accepted the Zionist requests for collaboration we would no doubt be talking about Lehi raised units to fight alongside the Nazis against the British. The only problem for this was the Nazi rejection of their advances.

My arguments, I feel, are solidly based on a waaaay more evenhanded approach than your own Israeli sponsored hasbara, as can be witnessed again in the above example.

You have yet to comment on Ben Gurions statement about preferring half the Jewish kids of Germany dead and the other half in Palestine rather than them all alive but living in the UK, or on the Lehi leaderships wanting a fascist state modelled on the European examples, of which Nazism was one , or the view that the Brits were worse to the Jews than Hitler was at the time of the Holocaust itself. Surprising? Not in the least.

It is your own arguments that are full of contradictions and selectivity and thus the resort to ridiculous accusations about people who refuse to be silenced by your hysterical and cowardly claims of Holocaust denial and or antisemitism ( take me on with this is the invitation offered to you, I dare you lol )

You have latched onto two things in order to attempt to construct an argument

1 That ONE of the quotes ascribed to Ben Gurion in the OP could be classed as hearsay. The other that are well documented and thus irrefutable which say the same thing being ignored by yourself.

2 That you can peddle Palestinian collaboration with the Nazis ONLY because the Jews that tried it were rejected by them.

And the blithering goes on.

Zionist tried to save Jews from Hitler and his BFF.

Nazis and their buddies tried to butcher there Jews wholesale.

HUGE difference.....

 

[Fledermaus]

You lied about the OP and likely complained to the Mods about how I responded to your inferences of antisemitism so you can go and chat to people of your own type because this poster has nothing but contempt for your actions/style

More accusations.....

How oneworld2.....

 

[oneworld2]

More accusations.....

How oneworld2.....

The difference is that I can back mine and you lot can't

 

[Chagos]

And the blithering goes on.

Zionist tried to save Jews from Hitler and his BFF.

Nazis and their buddies tried to butcher there Jews wholesale.

HUGE difference.....

It's actually the absurd attempt to equate the actions of a small and (however loud) insignificant Jewish group with those of the spiritual leader of large parts of the Muslim world.

Lehi has (had) a lot to answer for but the comparison is risible, seeing how it never got anywhere near to running Israel, nor was ever going to be.

Only one not realizing the futility (and idiocy) of that attempt being the OP himself.

 

[Chagos]

More accusations.....

How oneworld2.....

with the threat of confining somebody to speaking "to his own types" clearly as hollow as anything else from same source.

 

[oneworld2]

And the blithering goes on.

Zionist tried to save Jews from Hitler and his BFF.

Nazis and their buddies tried to butcher there Jews wholesale.

HUGE difference.....

What don't you get about the significance of the fact that the Jewish attempts to side with the Nazis ( pretty unbelievable btw ) failed ?

You are happy to piggy back the actions of some Palestinians to side with Nazis while downplaying the fact that some Jews offered the same in a blatant display of your usual double standards

 

[Fledermaus]

What don't you get about the significance of the fact that the Jewish attempts to side with the Nazis ( pretty unbelievable btw ) failed ?

You are happy to piggy back the actions of some Palestinians to side with Nazis while downplaying the fact that some Jews offered the same in a blatant display of your usual double standards

No one to my knowledge has denied some Zionists had agreement with the Nazis...

Zionists sought to save Jews by dealing with the devil...

While the Mufti embraced the devil with both arms....

HUGE difference.

 

[Chagos]

Lehi was not "the Jews" while, admittedly, Mohammed Amin al-Husseini was not "the Palestinians".

But the latter had far more support from his own sheeple in his endeavour to import the Nazis' "final solution" with the help of the very same.

The attempt at equating the two is blatantly stupid.