[W:534] Ben Gurion On The Reaction Of The Arabs To The Creation Of Israel

[oneworld2]

Seeing as we have had a few posters here putting up stuff about whether the Palestinians have a claim to a state or to even classify themselves as a people I thought it might be useful to reference some quotes from the founder of the Israeli state itself and its first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

Clearly there is no doubt that Ben Gurion sees the Arabs of Palestine as a single group and both recognizes/acknowledges that their long time residency on it confers an ownership of the territory. Yet so many here, even decades on from that time still argue against that the the actual founder of the state of Israel knew to be true.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”

Again, in stark contrast to the junk about Israel being the one defending itself against the Palestinians, we see the acknowledgement that the Zionist movement itself is the "aggressor" and that they are " defending themselves"............again we also see the acknowledgement that the country ( Israel and the OPTs tpday " is theirs"..............( The Palestinian Arabs ) and that " we want to come here and settle down".

The obvious admission is that it is the Zionist movement and its supporters that are the political aggressors that are moving in to the territory with a view to displace and dispossess the local Arab population.

I also find the very first line crucially telling..........." Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves "..... the " truth among ourselves " because that's where we are today. Israeli propaganda has triumphed and the aggressors are the defenders, the land that was someone elses and acknowledged to be someone elses in the above, has always been theirs with the acknowledged owners vanquished to a rag tag imposter people with no rightful territorial claims.

You want to understand the settlement programme ? Who else to ask about the greater Israel project, you know the one the hasbara people here put down to a left wing CT, but Ben Gurion himself.

" “It’s not a matter of maintaining the status quo. We have to create a dynamic state, oriented towards expansion.”

People familiar with the private Zionist discussions around the acceptance of the Peel Commission plans and the UN Partition Plan will likewise know that the agenda was ALWAYS to accept what was on offer as a stepping stone and take whatever else you could by force when you could.

It's like the classic Orwellian scenario where everything is the opposite of what it pertains to be. The Israeli Ministry of Truth has certainly duped the masses into the two minutes hate of all things Arab. The people who keep spreading this nonsense here will just have to accept this truth offensive , lick their wunds, and start the hasbara all over again. Those with more open minds would be well served by actually reading some of the stuff that came out of the Israeli Archives in the 80's that where taken from documents that preceded the state and/or were born in its infancy

all quotes taken from this piece for convenience

Ben-Gurion’s Notorious Quotes: Their Polemical Uses & Abuses

I’ve been engaged in a long-term e-mail debate with anti-Zionists, associated with David McReynolds, a former leader of the War Resisters’ League and a tiny remnant that still calls itself the Socialist Party, USA. Seth Farber, one of the most vociferous (although not quite the nastiest) of my...

www.progressiveisrael.org

 

[NatMorton]

Seeing as we have had a few posters here putting up stuff about whether the Palestinians have a claim to a state or to even classify themselves as a people I thought it might be useful to reference some quotes from the founder of the Israeli state itself and its first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion.



Clearly there is no doubt that Ben Gurion sees the Arabs of Palestine as a single group and both recognizes/acknowledges that their long time residency on it confers an ownership of the territory. Yet so many here, even decades on from that time still argue against that the the actual founder of the state of Israel knew to be true.



Again, in stark contrast to the junk about Israel being the one defending itself against the Palestinians, we see the acknowledgement that the Zionist movement itself is the "aggressor" and that they are " defending themselves"............again we also see the acknowledgement that the country ( Israel and the OPTs tpday " is theirs"..............( The Palestinian Arabs ) and that " we want to come here and settle down".

The obvious admission is that it is the Zionist movement and its supporters that are the political aggressors that are moving in to the territory with a view to displace and dispossess the local Arab population.

I also find the very first line crucially telling..........." Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves "..... the " truth among ourselves " because that's where we are today. Israeli propaganda has triumphed and the aggressors are the defenders, the land that was someone elses and acknowledged to be someone elses in the above, has always been theirs with the acknowledged owners vanquished to a rag tag imposter people with no rightful territorial claims.

You want to understand the settlement programme ? Who else to ask about the greater Israel project, you know the one the hasbara people here put down to a left wing CT, but Ben Gurion himself.

" “It’s not a matter of maintaining the status quo. We have to create a dynamic state, oriented towards expansion.”

People familiar with the private Zionist discussions around the acceptance of the Peel Commission plans and the UN Partition Plan will likewise know that the agenda was ALWAYS to accept what was on offer as a stepping stone and take whatever else you could by force when you could.

It's like the classic Orwellian scenario where everything is the opposite of what it pertains to be. The Israeli Ministry of Truth has certainly duped the masses into the two minutes hate of all things Arab. The people who keep spreading this nonsense here will just have to accept this truth offensive , lick their wunds, and start the hasbara all over again. Those with more open minds would be well served by actually reading some of the stuff that came out of the Israeli Archives in the 80's that where taken from documents that preceded the state and/or were born in its infancy

all quotes taken from this piece for convenience

Ben-Gurion’s Notorious Quotes: Their Polemical Uses & Abuses

I’ve been engaged in a long-term e-mail debate with anti-Zionists, associated with David McReynolds, a former leader of the War Resisters’ League and a tiny remnant that still calls itself the Socialist Party, USA. Seth Farber, one of the most vociferous (although not quite the nastiest) of my...

www.progressiveisrael.org

And you are, no doubt, at this moment living on land freely given to the United States by native Americans, yes? People have been fighting over -- and taking from each other -- land since the dawn of time. Almost certainly the Palestinians were not the first humans to occupy that part of the planet.

The reality is this. Palestinians had their land, even after the proposed partition of Palestine. They had it after the 1948 war, too (maps below). But that wasn't enough. For the next 30 years it was one attempt after another from the neighboring Arab peoples to seize what became Israeli land. There's a lesson in all this. If you're committed to wiping a neighboring country off the map, and you start a war to accomplish that goal, don't lose that war.

 

[Evilroddy]

This thread may not go smoothly. But like a multi car pile-up, I'll slow down and watch with prurient interest and with morbid curiosity.

At least Ben Gurion had the guts to say that the Israelis stole by force of arms the land from the Arabs living in Palestine and intended to expand that theft through continued aggression. At least he had some empathy for the Arab Nakba even if he was one of the main drivers of it.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[oneworld2]

And you are, no doubt, at this moment living on land freely given to the United States by native Americans, yes? People have been fighting over -- and taking from each other -- land since the dawn of time. Almost certainly the Palestinians were not the first humans to occupy that part of the planet.

The reality is this. Palestinians had their land, even after the proposed partition of Palestine. They had it after the 1948 war, too (maps below). But that wasn't enough. For the next 30 years it was one attempt after another from the neighboring Arab peoples to seize what became Israeli land. There's a lesson in all this. If you're committed to wiping a neighboring country off the map, and you start a war to accomplish that goal, don't lose that war.

Erm, no , I live in the UK and have traced my ancestry down to Boudicas chief eunuchs friend. (mateofeddienoballs)

The question here is not the history of human conquest, it is one of modern day perceptions on the I/P conflict. You know, where the aggressors are seen as the defenders, the indigenous seen as the territorail usurpers, the aggressive expansion seen as necessary defence etc..............the clue was the reference to Orwell.

As far as I know, in the US, the indigenous people were/are recognized/acknowledged as the indigenous people. Not so wrt Palestine

As far as I know, in the US, people aren't stupid enough to think the indigenous peoples were actually the aggressors. Not so wrt Palestine ( you yourself have obviously fallen for this )

There must be something else at work here for people to miss such obvious misinterpretations of history..............and that something is Israeli hasbara, hence the thread

 

[Evilroddy]

@NatMorton

oneworld2 is a Brit. He lives on lands stolen from Neolithic farmers and re-stolen many times since.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[oneworld2]

This thread may not go smoothly. But like a multi car pile-up, I'll slow down and watch with prurient interest and with morbid curiosity.

At least Ben Gurion had the guts to say that the Israelis stole by force of arms the land from the Arabs living in Palestine and intended to expand that theft through continued aggression. At least he had some empathy for the Arab Nakba even if he was one of the main drivers of it.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Is there ever a thread that goes " smoothly" here


Rubbernecking only ............. I'm disappointed ER no cheers for you.

 

[MamboDervish]

And you are, no doubt, at this moment living on land freely given to the United States by native Americans, yes? People have been fighting over -- and taking from each other -- land since the dawn of time. Almost certainly the Palestinians were not the first humans to occupy that part of the planet.

The reality is this. Palestinians had their land, even after the proposed partition of Palestine. They had it after the 1948 war, too (maps below). But that wasn't enough. For the next 30 years it was one attempt after another from the neighboring Arab peoples to seize what became Israeli land. There's a lesson in all this. If you're committed to wiping a neighboring country off the map, and you start a war to accomplish that goal, don't lose that war.

View attachment 67325257

Interesting maps. They don't even include the Golan Heights - almost another 700 square miles - which Israel has controlled for almost 54 years.
When does it become theirs by default?

 

[Evilroddy]

Is there ever a thread that goes " smoothly" here


Rubbernecking only ............. I'm disappointed ER no cheers for you.

oneworld2:

I'm wounded to the quick. Now pass another pint of Old Peculiar and shut yer gob! Descended from eunuchs you say? Baffling mate! If that was my family tree, then I'd be in an existential crisis. Fortunately my Socttish ancestors were fully functional when they procreated, leading to a healthy supply of Clann Donnachaid whelping bairns! The English are a strange lot.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Seeing as we have had a few posters here putting up stuff about whether the Palestinians have a claim to a state or to even classify themselves as a people I thought it might be useful to reference some quotes from the founder of the Israeli state itself and its first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion.



Clearly there is no doubt that Ben Gurion sees the Arabs of Palestine as a single group and both recognizes/acknowledges that their long time residency on it confers an ownership of the territory. Yet so many here, even decades on from that time still argue against that the the actual founder of the state of Israel knew to be true.



Again, in stark contrast to the junk about Israel being the one defending itself against the Palestinians, we see the acknowledgement that the Zionist movement itself is the "aggressor" and that they are " defending themselves"............again we also see the acknowledgement that the country ( Israel and the OPTs tpday " is theirs"..............( The Palestinian Arabs ) and that " we want to come here and settle down".

The obvious admission is that it is the Zionist movement and its supporters that are the political aggressors that are moving in to the territory with a view to displace and dispossess the local Arab population.

I also find the very first line crucially telling..........." Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves "..... the " truth among ourselves " because that's where we are today. Israeli propaganda has triumphed and the aggressors are the defenders, the land that was someone elses and acknowledged to be someone elses in the above, has always been theirs with the acknowledged owners vanquished to a rag tag imposter people with no rightful territorial claims.

You want to understand the settlement programme ? Who else to ask about the greater Israel project, you know the one the hasbara people here put down to a left wing CT, but Ben Gurion himself.

" “It’s not a matter of maintaining the status quo. We have to create a dynamic state, oriented towards expansion.”

People familiar with the private Zionist discussions around the acceptance of the Peel Commission plans and the UN Partition Plan will likewise know that the agenda was ALWAYS to accept what was on offer as a stepping stone and take whatever else you could by force when you could.

It's like the classic Orwellian scenario where everything is the opposite of what it pertains to be. The Israeli Ministry of Truth has certainly duped the masses into the two minutes hate of all things Arab. The people who keep spreading this nonsense here will just have to accept this truth offensive , lick their wunds, and start the hasbara all over again. Those with more open minds would be well served by actually reading some of the stuff that came out of the Israeli Archives in the 80's that where taken from documents that preceded the state and/or were born in its infancy

all quotes taken from this piece for convenience

Ben-Gurion’s Notorious Quotes: Their Polemical Uses & Abuses

I’ve been engaged in a long-term e-mail debate with anti-Zionists, associated with David McReynolds, a former leader of the War Resisters’ League and a tiny remnant that still calls itself the Socialist Party, USA. Seth Farber, one of the most vociferous (although not quite the nastiest) of my...

www.progressiveisrael.org

I have never believed that the Palestinians were not "Indigenous" at the time the Jews returned to Palestine. I agree with the citation to Ben Gurion, that the retaking of Israel was "aggressive."

However, unlike with most other "indigenes," the area of Israel known as Canaan was always the original home of the Jews before a diaspora caused many to shift to Egypt and elsewhere. All well before Moses and the Ark of the Covenant. Then of course the subsequent founding of Israel under Joshua after the "conquest." Which was later followed by the last major diaspora caused by Rome which led to replacement by the Palestinians.

So unlike "European" and other examples here in the Americas, Australia, and elsewhere, the Jews could claim repossession of prior ownership by force of arms as per the prior example when Joshua led them.

Thus it is not so clear-cut as you project.

 

[oneworld2]

oneworld2:

I'm wounded to the quick. Now pass another pint of Old Peculiar and shut yer gob! Descended from eunuchs you say? Baffling mate! If that was my family tree, then I'd be in an existential crisis. Fortunately my Socttish ancestors were fully functional when they procreated, leading to a healthy supply of Clann Donnachaid whelping bairns! The English are a strange lot.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Concentrate your Evilness, I said I was a descendant of the chief eunichs friend. The English always think they can do anything, but even they shy away from claims of existing despite none testicular intervention.

 

[oneworld2]

I have never believed that the Palestinians were not "Indigenous" at the time the Jews returned to Palestine. I agree with the citation to Ben Gurion, that the retaking of Israel was "aggressive."

However, unlike with most other "indigenes," the area of Israel known as Canaan was always the original home of the Jews before a diaspora caused many to shift to Egypt and elsewhere. All well before Moses and the Ark of the Covenant. Then of course the subsequent founding of Israel under Joshua after the "conquest." Which was later followed by the last major diaspora caused by Rome which led to replacement by the Palestinians.

So unlike "European" and other examples here in the Americas, Australia, and elsewhere, the Jews could claim repossession of prior ownership by force of arms as per the prior example when Joshua led them.

Thus it is not so clear-cut as you project.

Kudos to you for a fairer view on the Palestinians, there are many here who are way less able to admit what was stated by Ben Gurion himself.

My driver was not to deny an ancient Jewish homeland being founded there millenia ago, I accept that is a historical truth, my contention was the truthfulness ( albeit, and perhaps crucially, in private) with which Ben Gurion himself saw both the Jewish dispossession of the Palestinians and their understandable reaction to it. 70 odd years on and Israeli hasbara has people believing the complete opposite

 

[weaver2]

Seeing as we have had a few posters here putting up stuff about whether the Palestinians have a claim to a state or to even classify themselves as a people I thought it might be useful to reference some quotes from the founder of the Israeli state itself and its first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion

From the very beginning Zionists always planned on taking the land from the Palestinians moving them out of the country. Theodor Hertzl the father of modern Israel wrote: "When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly ... It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example ... "

The Irgun flag removes any doubt about the land they will take and the way they intend to take it.

 

[MamboDervish]

From the very beginning Zionists always planned on taking the land from the Palestinians moving them out of the country. Theodor Hertzl the father of modern Israel wrote: "When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly ... It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example ... "

The Irgun flag removes any doubt about the land they will take and the way they intend to take it.
View attachment 67325367

What do the Hebrew letters spell, and what is the thin black symbol to the left of the rifle?

 

[weaver2]

What do the Hebrew letters spell, and what is the thin black symbol to the left of the rifle?

The top letters say Etzel an acronym for Israel. "Only thus" is the motto at the bottom. The line represents the River Jordan with the Sea of Galilee at the top and the Dead Sea at the bottom. The river is currently the border between Jordan and Israel. The map outlined on the flag indicates their intent to take Jordan.

Irgun was dismantled and the flag unused after the massacre at Deir Yassin.

 

[MamboDervish]

The top letters say Etzel an acronym for Israel. "Only thus" is the motto at the bottom. The line represents the River Jordan with the Sea of Galilee at the top and the Dead Sea at the bottom. The river is currently the border between Jordan and Israel. The map outlined on the flag indicates their intent to take Jordan.

Irgun was dismantled and the flag unused after the massacre at Deir Yassin.

AHA! Thanks for the insights.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Seeing as we have had a few posters here putting up stuff about whether the Palestinians have a claim to a state or to even classify themselves as a people I thought it might be useful to reference some quotes from the founder of the Israeli state itself and its first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion.



Clearly there is no doubt that Ben Gurion sees the Arabs of Palestine as a single group and both recognizes/acknowledges that their long time residency on it confers an ownership of the territory. Yet so many here, even decades on from that time still argue against that the the actual founder of the state of Israel knew to be true.



Again, in stark contrast to the junk about Israel being the one defending itself against the Palestinians, we see the acknowledgement that the Zionist movement itself is the "aggressor" and that they are " defending themselves"............again we also see the acknowledgement that the country ( Israel and the OPTs tpday " is theirs"..............( The Palestinian Arabs ) and that " we want to come here and settle down".

The obvious admission is that it is the Zionist movement and its supporters that are the political aggressors that are moving in to the territory with a view to displace and dispossess the local Arab population.

I also find the very first line crucially telling..........." Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves "..... the " truth among ourselves " because that's where we are today. Israeli propaganda has triumphed and the aggressors are the defenders, the land that was someone elses and acknowledged to be someone elses in the above, has always been theirs with the acknowledged owners vanquished to a rag tag imposter people with no rightful territorial claims.

You want to understand the settlement programme ? Who else to ask about the greater Israel project, you know the one the hasbara people here put down to a left wing CT, but Ben Gurion himself.

" “It’s not a matter of maintaining the status quo. We have to create a dynamic state, oriented towards expansion.”

People familiar with the private Zionist discussions around the acceptance of the Peel Commission plans and the UN Partition Plan will likewise know that the agenda was ALWAYS to accept what was on offer as a stepping stone and take whatever else you could by force when you could.

It's like the classic Orwellian scenario where everything is the opposite of what it pertains to be. The Israeli Ministry of Truth has certainly duped the masses into the two minutes hate of all things Arab. The people who keep spreading this nonsense here will just have to accept this truth offensive , lick their wunds, and start the hasbara all over again. Those with more open minds would be well served by actually reading some of the stuff that came out of the Israeli Archives in the 80's that where taken from documents that preceded the state and/or were born in its infancy

all quotes taken from this piece for convenience

Ben-Gurion’s Notorious Quotes: Their Polemical Uses & Abuses

I’ve been engaged in a long-term e-mail debate with anti-Zionists, associated with David McReynolds, a former leader of the War Resisters’ League and a tiny remnant that still calls itself the Socialist Party, USA. Seth Farber, one of the most vociferous (although not quite the nastiest) of my...

www.progressiveisrael.org

The Palestinians never considered themselves a people before an international cause was started by the international left, Palestinian is not even an Arab word. They also have no claim to a state as the region called “Palestine” had never been a sovereign state in history except when it was Israel/Judah and run by Jews.

it’s clear Ben Guiron is not talking about them as though they are an indigenous ethnic group, but as a group of occupiers who lost their property.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Interesting maps. They don't even include the Golan Heights - almost another 700 square miles - which Israel has controlled for almost 54 years.
When does it become theirs by default?

Crimea has literally been Russian for centuries and ended up in Ukraine because of an administrative shift within what was the same country in 1954 but despite the clear fact it was Russia, and always was Russia, and had a majority Russia population who voted in an election to join Russia no one wants to recognize Crimea as Russia

 

[NO1]

Seeing as we have had a few posters here putting up stuff about whether the Palestinians have a claim to a state or to even classify themselves as a people I thought it might be useful to reference some quotes from the founder of the Israeli state itself and its first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion.



Clearly there is no doubt that Ben Gurion sees the Arabs of Palestine as a single group and both recognizes/acknowledges that their long time residency on it confers an ownership of the territory. Yet so many here, even decades on from that time still argue against that the the actual founder of the state of Israel knew to be true.



Again, in stark contrast to the junk about Israel being the one defending itself against the Palestinians, we see the acknowledgement that the Zionist movement itself is the "aggressor" and that they are " defending themselves"............again we also see the acknowledgement that the country ( Israel and the OPTs tpday " is theirs"..............( The Palestinian Arabs ) and that " we want to come here and settle down".

The obvious admission is that it is the Zionist movement and its supporters that are the political aggressors that are moving in to the territory with a view to displace and dispossess the local Arab population.

I also find the very first line crucially telling..........." Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves "..... the " truth among ourselves " because that's where we are today. Israeli propaganda has triumphed and the aggressors are the defenders, the land that was someone elses and acknowledged to be someone elses in the above, has always been theirs with the acknowledged owners vanquished to a rag tag imposter people with no rightful territorial claims.

You want to understand the settlement programme ? Who else to ask about the greater Israel project, you know the one the hasbara people here put down to a left wing CT, but Ben Gurion himself.

" “It’s not a matter of maintaining the status quo. We have to create a dynamic state, oriented towards expansion.”

People familiar with the private Zionist discussions around the acceptance of the Peel Commission plans and the UN Partition Plan will likewise know that the agenda was ALWAYS to accept what was on offer as a stepping stone and take whatever else you could by force when you could.

It's like the classic Orwellian scenario where everything is the opposite of what it pertains to be. The Israeli Ministry of Truth has certainly duped the masses into the two minutes hate of all things Arab. The people who keep spreading this nonsense here will just have to accept this truth offensive , lick their wunds, and start the hasbara all over again. Those with more open minds would be well served by actually reading some of the stuff that came out of the Israeli Archives in the 80's that where taken from documents that preceded the state and/or were born in its infancy

all quotes taken from this piece for convenience

Ben-Gurion’s Notorious Quotes: Their Polemical Uses & Abuses

I’ve been engaged in a long-term e-mail debate with anti-Zionists, associated with David McReynolds, a former leader of the War Resisters’ League and a tiny remnant that still calls itself the Socialist Party, USA. Seth Farber, one of the most vociferous (although not quite the nastiest) of my...

www.progressiveisrael.org

This thread is a fail from the get go. According to your source it's Goldmann who qoute Ben Gurion -

“If I were an Arab leader.... "
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

After I google it, it turns out Goldmann was a personal rival of Ben-Gurion, and he claiming that Ben-Gurion said it to him in private conversation. Goldmann published this claim two decades after the conversation was meant to have taken place, and five years after Ben-Gurion’s death (Ben-Gurion didn't have the chance to dispute it). So it’s not a quote but a hearsay from his rival lol. Questionable to say the least.

So instead of relaying on Questionable source lets here Ben Gurion himself -


He being asked if he acknowledge the existence of Arab Palestinian entity?
His answer was – the name Palestine it’s a hoax and the land Judea was named Palestine by the Romans because they wanted to get even with Jews after the battle between them. Then he continue to say there is no connection between the arab Palestinians to the Philistines and that there wasn’t any Palestinian state or people. In the rest of the video he talked about the history of the Jews in the land of Israel which goes thousands of years back.

So your argument collapsed, you tried to show Ben Gurion sees Palestinian arabs as group by a quote of him which turns to be a hearsay from his rival. Also I showed a video of Ben gurion which states the complete opposite – there is no palestians people.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Seeing as we have had a few posters here putting up stuff about whether the Palestinians have a claim to a state or to even classify themselves as a people I thought it might be useful to reference some quotes from the founder of the Israeli state itself and its first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion.



Clearly there is no doubt that Ben Gurion sees the Arabs of Palestine as a single group and both recognizes/acknowledges that their long time residency on it confers an ownership of the territory. Yet so many here, even decades on from that time still argue against that the the actual founder of the state of Israel knew to be true.



Again, in stark contrast to the junk about Israel being the one defending itself against the Palestinians, we see the acknowledgement that the Zionist movement itself is the "aggressor" and that they are " defending themselves"............again we also see the acknowledgement that the country ( Israel and the OPTs tpday " is theirs"..............( The Palestinian Arabs ) and that " we want to come here and settle down".

The obvious admission is that it is the Zionist movement and its supporters that are the political aggressors that are moving in to the territory with a view to displace and dispossess the local Arab population.

I also find the very first line crucially telling..........." Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves "..... the " truth among ourselves " because that's where we are today. Israeli propaganda has triumphed and the aggressors are the defenders, the land that was someone elses and acknowledged to be someone elses in the above, has always been theirs with the acknowledged owners vanquished to a rag tag imposter people with no rightful territorial claims.

You want to understand the settlement programme ? Who else to ask about the greater Israel project, you know the one the hasbara people here put down to a left wing CT, but Ben Gurion himself.

" “It’s not a matter of maintaining the status quo. We have to create a dynamic state, oriented towards expansion.”

People familiar with the private Zionist discussions around the acceptance of the Peel Commission plans and the UN Partition Plan will likewise know that the agenda was ALWAYS to accept what was on offer as a stepping stone and take whatever else you could by force when you could.

It's like the classic Orwellian scenario where everything is the opposite of what it pertains to be. The Israeli Ministry of Truth has certainly duped the masses into the two minutes hate of all things Arab. The people who keep spreading this nonsense here will just have to accept this truth offensive , lick their wunds, and start the hasbara all over again. Those with more open minds would be well served by actually reading some of the stuff that came out of the Israeli Archives in the 80's that where taken from documents that preceded the state and/or were born in its infancy

all quotes taken from this piece for convenience

Ben-Gurion’s Notorious Quotes: Their Polemical Uses & Abuses

I’ve been engaged in a long-term e-mail debate with anti-Zionists, associated with David McReynolds, a former leader of the War Resisters’ League and a tiny remnant that still calls itself the Socialist Party, USA. Seth Farber, one of the most vociferous (although not quite the nastiest) of my...

www.progressiveisrael.org

You need to be more careful about the "where" that you cut and paste your information from.

Perhaps the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem shouldn't have sided with Hitler because of his hatred of the Jews?

Maybe the Arabs of Palestine would have had more influence with the League Of Nations after the war ended?

 

[NO1]

Next, let's examine another approach which the op ignored, instead of focusing about how the arab palestinains are being seen from the outside, it’s much more simple to check how the Palestinian arabs see themslevs, don't it?

1. Here are the resolutions of the first palestinian arab congress (1919) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Arab_Congress#First_congress:_Jerusalem,_1919

"We consider Palestine nothing but part of Arab Syria and it has never been separated from it at any stage. We are tied to it by national, religious, linguistic, moral, economic, and geographic bounds."

"Our district Southern Syria or Palestine should be not separated from the Independent Arab Syrian Government and be free from all foreign influence and protection"

2. Here are the words of Awni Abd al-Hadi, general secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, testified to Peel Commission in 1936:

"There is no such country [as Palestine].... Palestine is a term the Zionists invented.... Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

3. https://www.jpost.com/opinion/op-ed-contributors/nakba-whats-in-a-name-314780

As late as May 31, 1956, Ahmed Shukeiri, the Saudi Arabian ambassador to the UN, told the Security Council: “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria.”

Ahmed was the first Chairman of the PLO

4. Here are the words of palestinian leader Zuheir_Mohsen -

Mohsen himself stated that there were "no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese", though Palestinian identity would be emphasised for political reasons. In a March 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw he stated that "between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of one people, the Arab nation [...] Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons".

To conclude, the op tried to show palestinians are people by selective and questionable qoutes of Ben Gurion but he failed because as I showed Ben Gurion himself said the opposite and I showed the source is questionable to say the least. More over I provide qoutes of palestinians leaders throught the years (1919 -1977) which don't classify themselves as a people.

The op is based on poor propaganda.

 

[NO1]

From the very beginning Zionists always planned on taking the land from the Palestinians moving them out of the country. Theodor Hertzl the father of modern Israel wrote: "When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly ... It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example ... "

The Irgun flag removes any doubt about the land they will take and the way they intend to take it.
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It took me like a 30 sec to see it's not the full qoute of Hertzl, here is the full qoute - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl

Altneuland was written both for Jews and non-Jews: Herzl wanted to win over non-Jewish opinion for Zionism.[94] When he was still thinking of Argentina as a possible venue for massive Jewish immigration, he wrote in his diary:

"When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly ... It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example ... Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us",

I bolded the part you missed.

He wrote it when he was thinking of Argantina so he didn't planned on taking the land from the Palestinians. Also he stated that ones who wishes not to sell their land will stay. Same as any person today who own a house and gets an offer...

Actually it was the arabs who want to move out the Jews to the sea from Nebi Musa riots, Jaffa riots, Hebron massacre, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem sided with Hitler to when about six arab armies invaded Israel to destroy it in 1948.

 

[Exquisitor]

Ben Gurion On The Reaction Of The Arabs To The Creation Of Israel

It's too bad the Arabs don't just welcome back their Canaanite brothers from Jericho and those other cities.

 

[NO1]

it’s clear Ben Guiron is not talking about them as though they are an indigenous ethnic group, but as a group of occupiers who lost their property.

It's not a qoute of Ben Gurion, it's qoute of his rival Goldmann which been made decades after they talked and years after Ben Gurion died. Anyway the palestinains themselvs says the complete opposite and also Ben Gurion.

 

[Aristaeus]

And you are, no doubt, at this moment living on land freely given to the United States by native Americans, yes? People have been fighting over -- and taking from each other -- land since the dawn of time. Almost certainly the Palestinians were not the first humans to occupy that part of the planet.

The reality is this. Palestinians had their land, even after the proposed partition of Palestine. They had it after the 1948 war, too (maps below). But that wasn't enough. For the next 30 years it was one attempt after another from the neighboring Arab peoples to seize what became Israeli land. There's a lesson in all this. If you're committed to wiping a neighboring country off the map, and you start a war to accomplish that goal, don't lose that war.

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Gaining territory through war became illegal under international law after WW2, so what happened to the Native Americans is hardly relevant.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Gaining territory through war became illegal under international law after WW2, so what happened to the Native Americans is hardly relevant.

No it did not. There is no such thing as international “law” merely custom. A law be nature cannot exist outside of a nation because there is no practical method of enforcement of such a “law”.

not to mention the practical effect of fixing national borders to a concept not organic to the people is evil. It’s like Russians living in Crimea suddenly finding themselves in a country (Ukraine) that they had no historical connection nor allegiance to and now the international community wants them to remain part of a foreign country who’s rule they never consented to. Well Putin showed the world that won’t fly.