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Belgian Burkha ban for only 30 women?

Infinite Chaos

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Belgium's lower house of parliament has voted for a law that would ban women from wearing the full Islamic face veil in public.
The law would ban any clothing that obscures the identity of the wearer in places like parks and on the street. No-one voted against it.

The law now goes to the Senate, which is also expected to approve it. It would then become law by June or July.
The ban would be the first move of its kind in Europe.
Only around 30 women wear this kind of veil in Belgium, out of a Muslim population of around half a million.
The BBC's Dominic Hughes in Brussels says MPs backed the legislation on the grounds of security, to allow police to identify people.
Other MPs said that the full face veil was a symbol of the oppression of women, our correspondent says.
The ban would be imposed in all buildings or grounds that are "meant for public use or to provide services", including streets, parks and sports grounds.BBC Story

Maybe Bub can help here - are there only 30 women in Belgium who actually wear the Burkha?
Sounds like a poor use of legal time and effort when the actual numbers involved are absolutely miniscule. I'm pretty certain there are other ways Belgium could have tackled the problem more efficiently - and that's leaving aside the personal liberty issues.
 

Areopagitican

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If one were to complain about all the laws which banned and prevented problems that didn't actually exist; starting at this one seems like a pretty low point. Maybe Chris Dodd's bill would be a better use of your time?
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Sounds as if it may be a dodgy figure to me, otherwise it would indeed seem illogical for so much time to be spent drafting the legislation. Just 30 Muslims out of half a million dressing as pepper pots? C'mon now!

Or perhaps it's a shot across the bows. If 'Belgian' Muslims are anything like the many of them here, it may be possible that a thin red line is being symbolically painted, as with the minaret vote in Switzerland.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1576066/We-want-to-offer-sharia-law-to-Britain.html

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK - Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/you...h-Muslims-more-radical-than-their-parents.htm

what muslims want - Google Search


Yes, let's see what Bub has to say.
 
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bub

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Maybe Bub can help here - are there only 30 women in Belgium who actually wear the Burkha?
Sounds like a poor use of legal time and effort when the actual numbers involved are absolutely miniscule. I'm pretty certain there are other ways Belgium could have tackled the problem more efficiently - and that's leaving aside the personal liberty issues.

I don't know how many they are but they are definitely much more numerous than 30.

Last year I lived in the center of Brussels (= not even the poorest districts where a majority of Muslims live) and I could see burkhas quite every day. They may not be very numerous, something should still be done about them.

It's interesting that the Lower House have voted this ban proposition at unanimity (except two flemish socialists who voted blank). Everyone, even the socialists (who are really left wing) and the ecologists (who are left-wing/altermondialists) support this ban

That shows that everyone here considers that the Burqa is not a religious symbol (most Belgian muslims agree about that, and the proof is that only a small number of women wear a burqa), but that it is a symbol of submission of women.

And you have to know that the law is not a "ban on burqas", it bans every mask/veil... that makes the identification of someone impossible. But the real argument is that some behaviours (such as wearing a burqa) are a "fundamental separation" with the rest of the society and that the burqa is the symbol of submission of women (all the parties have the POV that usually, it is not a choice to wear a burqa)

Lalibre.be - Interdiction de la burqa adoptée à la Chambre
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Indeed. Whenever people like me rail against the Islamic burka (or whatever the Darth Vader outfit's called), we get the usual mantra about it not being in their 'holy' books.

Well that just makes it worse as that gives no fig leaf of justification. But Muhammad always did just pull his oppressive evil from thin air, so why shouldn't his followers?


People talk about 'Islamophobia' but there are fifth columinst vanguards wanting to bring about the Muslim takeover of Dar Al Harb, regardless of whether 'moderate' Muslims back them or not. The moderates certainly don't unite to stop it, with even some of them wanting their 'peaceful' takeovers and ghettoisation.




Is this England? [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h2XBZz88VE&feature=email"]YouTube- BRITAIN TODAY[/nomedia]


Cutting up the kids for the 'merciful' Allah: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuNWpKShLfY&feature=related"]YouTube- Muslim ceremony - SERIOUSLY, I have no words for this ![/nomedia]


Orthodox Islam and womens' rights exposed: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHyN_nhIk4A"]YouTube- Prophet Muhammad says "Kill Your Daughters"![/nomedia]


Enough is Enough: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LJ607zafmc"]YouTube- Islamification of Switzerland stalled by Popular Vote![/nomedia]


And they say the BNP are bad: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR0R-O8iW_E"]YouTube- Mark Collett's Pacman vs Muslim Genocide Game[/nomedia] (Though Collett is himself cut from the same cloth evidently.)



_____________________________

Back catalogue:


Ho-Hum: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...ms-go-critical-and-attack-their-own-boss.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/70345-muslims-allowed-throw-shoes-cops-cultural-reasons.html

Western tolerance can be abused: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...azed-muslims-free-worship-western-europe.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/67456-islamists-now-germany.html

Free Speech toxicity: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...-wilders-anti-islam-film-sparks-protests.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...zero-tolerance-homosexuality-0-fer-500-a.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/69260-deadly-explosion-goes-off-moscow-metro-station.html

It's all what they want isn't it: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...death-camp-and-sharia-stock-exchange-hmm.html

Just like Goering, they reach for weapons when they encounter culture: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/67997-cartoon-story-stranger-than-fiction.html

More bullying: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/66924-labours-rainbow-minority-darlings-fall-out.html

Yeah, you give Labour its punishment for harbouring vipers: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...supreme-protector-no-respect-some-people.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/64772-ban-burqas-receives-strong-public-support-france.html, etc.



Other links inside these.
 
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rivrrat

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I swear, if they ever try to pull that fascist bull**** in this country, I will take up wearing a veil in protest. I'll start a ****ing movement for women to wear them in protest.

Absolutely disgusting.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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This video helps explain how the Islamic 'culture' acts as a leg-iron to stop modern, bright and decent young Muslims from going their own way in the world. It obviously has a knock-on effect to the West as oppressive measures such as forced marriages become embedded.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fe6vzQfLIg"]YouTube- Are all Muslims bad?[/nomedia]



The deal with immigration was to have a few imported people following the Muslim faith free to privately indulge their beliefs in peace. I don't know what we were supposed to get in return but apparently these Muslims were just after a better life or fleeing from persecution.

Why weren't we told about the Sharia, legalised animal rights abuses, the Nazi-esque antisemitism and all the rest of it?
 
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bub

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I swear, if they ever try to pull that fascist bull**** in this country, I will take up wearing a veil in protest. I'll start a ****ing movement for women to wear them in protest.

Absolutely disgusting.

It's not about veils, it's about burqas, the cloth that some women are forced to wear so that everyone can see that they are inferior.

Do you know the saying "when there is a strong man and a weak man, a rich man and a poor man, a master and a slave, it is freedom that oppresses and law that emancipates"?
 

rivrrat

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It's not about veils, it's about burqas, the cloth that some women are forced to wear so that everyone can see that they are inferior.
You stated:

And you have to know that the law is not a "ban on burqas", it bans every mask/veil

So apparently, it IS about burquas OR veils. And the women ALWAYS choose to wear them.

Do you know the saying "when there is a strong man and a weak man, a rich man and a poor man, a master and a slave, it is freedom that oppresses and law that emancipates"?
LMFAO :lol:

So freedom is oppression. That's ****ing hilarious
 

bub

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You stated:



So apparently, it IS about burquas OR veils.

Well you should learn the difference between a burqa and a veil, and then we'll speak about that again.
 

rivrrat

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Well you should learn the difference between a burqa and a veil, and then we'll speak about that again.

:confused:

I'm quite aware of the difference. You said the law bans BOTH
 

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I swear, if they ever try to pull that fascist bull**** in this country, I will take up wearing a veil in protest. I'll start a ****ing movement for women to wear them in protest.

Absolutely disgusting.

No, the Burkha is only for 30 of the ugliest Muslim women in Belgium. All the good looking ones don't need to wear it.
 

digsbe

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I strongly am opposed to this law. It's fascist and restricts a person's religious freedom. Belgium should remove this law. A woman should have the right to wear a Burkha if she so choses to.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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There's an irony - Lefty types defending archaic dress codes, often as not enforced by inflexible culture with menaces rather than preference, on the wobbly ground of freedom of choice.

(Well, I have the freedom of choice to pay protection money to gangsters but it's still just as well that such a charge is illegal.)



Why I, as a British Muslim woman, want the burkha banned from our streets | Mail Online

HowStuffWorks "Reasons Women Wear Burqas"


Out in the Muslim paradise the compulsion is even more direct: Article: women forced to wear burqa.(Brief Article) | AccessMyLibrary - Promoting library advocacy

http://www.emgonline.co.uk/news.php?news=6616



It's more important to have the freedom not to wear it through choice, and have the law on your side if truculent reactionary bigots in the Muslim communities kick up a stink.

DAWN.COM | Editorial | Burka: the other view



Lefties seem to lack the insight to know that any woman wanting to wear the burka to avoid the gaze of men need only wear a pair of dungarees and a beany hat. (Many feminists actually do.)

They're quick to bandy around the 'f' word when criticising democratic liberal democracies by speak ne'er a word when confronted with the real fascism of the Sharia dress code.
 
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bicycleman

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Lefties seem to lack the insight to know that any woman wanting to wear the burka to avoid the gaze of men need only wear a pair of dungarees and a beany hat. (Many feminists actually do.)

[/I]

That would depend on whether she's wearing those German jeans, the Gutentights.
 

bub

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:confused:

I'm quite aware of the difference. You said the law bans BOTH

ahhh sorry I wasn't clear: I meant "anything that makes identification impossible": if you wear a veil that covers your face, it's forbidden, but usually a veil does not cover the face, so there is no problem with it.
 

Apocalypse

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LMFAO :lol:

So freedom is oppression. That's ****ing hilarious
It's a famous quote, and I can't see neither the hilarious part in it nor how is it actually wrong.

To explain it further, in a society where there is an oppressor and an oppressed, giving them freedom, AKA, "letting them be", will simply allow the continuance of the oppression - while on the other hand, enforcing a law that forbids such oppression would "free" the oppressed group and break the oppression.

It should really be easy to understand.
 
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bub

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It's a famous quote, and I can't see neither the hilarious part in it nor how is it actually wrong.

To explain it further, in a society where there is an oppressor and an oppressed, giving them freedom, AKA, "letting them be", will simply allow the continuance of the oppression - while on the other hand, enforcing a law would "free" the oppressed group and break the oppression.

It should really be easy to understand.

thanks :):)
 

Tashah

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It is my understanding that most Muslim immigrants to Belgium are ethnically Arab. I have to ask then, where are these Muslim burkha-clad women in Belgium originally from?

bub? Can you help out here?
 

rivrrat

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It's a famous quote, and I can't see neither the hilarious part in it nor how is it actually wrong.

To explain it further, in a society where there is an oppressor and an oppressed, giving them freedom, AKA, "letting them be", will simply allow the continuance of the oppression - while on the other hand, enforcing a law that forbids such oppression would "free" the oppressed group and break the oppression.

It should really be easy to understand.

And the group rising up and fighting their oppression would free themselves.

Sorry, freedom isn't oppression and the notion is ludicrous.
 

Gardener

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And the group rising up and fighting their oppression would free themselves.

Sorry, freedom isn't oppression and the notion is ludicrous.

Actually, it's your notion that oppression is freedom that is ludicrous, but do feel free to continue to show how little you know of the practice.
 

bub

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It is my understanding that most Muslim immigrants to Belgium are ethnically Arab. I have to ask then, where are these Muslim burkha-clad women in Belgium originally from?

bub? Can you help out here?

The huge majority are Morrocans or Turks, and among those ones maybe 1/2 or 1/3 wear a veil and the males are dressed like Westerners.

But recently there have been some new immigrants coming from Afghanistan and Pakistan, I guess it's those ones who wear the burqa while the males wear "oriental" dresses.

There are also some very rare cases of Belgians who convert to Islam, and these ones tend to be very radical, so it's not impossible that one or two "white" women wear a burqa, too.
 

Tashah

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Some women do in fact choose to don a burkha of their own volition. Other women are physically forced to wear it in public by family males or the husband.

The core problem is that it is almost impossible to truthfully discern an individual woman's motivation... respect for modesty - or - fear of retribution.
 

Tashah

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The huge majority are Morrocans or Turks, and among those ones maybe 1/2 or 1/3 wear a veil and the males are dressed like Westerners.

But recently there have been some new immigrants coming from Afghanistan and Pakistan, I guess it's those ones who wear the burqa while the males wear "oriental" dresses.

There are also some very rare cases of Belgians who convert to Islam, and these ones tend to be very radical, so it's not impossible that one or two "white" women wear a burqa, too.
Thank you bub. Burkha's are not monolithic in Islam. For the most part, they are only worn in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and portions of India. Some Persian women wear a chador, which is similar in construction to a burkha.

I would bet that the majority of burkha-clad Muslim females in Belgium are either from Pakistan or Afghanistan.
 

bub

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Some women do in fact choose to don a burkha of their own volition. Other women are physically forced to wear it in public by family males or the husband.

The core problem is that it is almost impossible to truthfully discern an individual woman's motivation... respect for modesty - or - fear of retribution.

And don't you think it's better to ban it, "free" the women who were forced to wear it and disappoint the ones who chose to wear it, rather than letting it be forced upon some women?
 
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