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Belarus says Russian troops to stay in country indefinitely

justoneman said:
I have friends and coworkers that are Ukrainian and Poles and Lithuanians and Belarussians and Russians. I live in Chicago. my neighbors are Vietnamese and Pakastani. I talk to lots of people. They all have lots of friends and family back home. I get a good slice of opinions.
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So no one living in Ukraine. And they think this is all Biden's imagination? Maybe the people you talk to aren't terribly sophisticated. Listen to the YouTube of Zelenskyy.
 
jpn said:
So no one living in Ukraine. And they think this is all Biden's imagination? Maybe the people you talk to aren't terribly sophisticated. Listen to the YouTube of Zelenskyy.
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I have my opinion of it. You have yours. I'm fine with that. If I'm wrong and Russia moves in then I will say I was wrong. You do the same if it's reversed.
 
justoneman said:
I have my opinion of it. You have yours. I'm fine with that. If I'm wrong and Russia moves in then I will say I was wrong. You do the same if it's reversed.
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Agreed. My best guess is that Putin avoids a full-on invasion but does all he can to undermine Ukraine's economy while taking more bites out of its territory, as he also has done in Geogia and Moldova. He already basically has control over Kazakhstan and now Belarus. It's clear that he's trying to rebuild the old Soviet empire.
 
justoneman said:
Russia is not going to invade Ukraine.
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What on earth does Putin being in Belarus do to make you think he would NOT invade Ukraine? Putin being in Belarus should make you know that Putin invades EVERYBODY. He longs to restore the Soviet Union. He sent out that memo. Didn't you receive it?
 
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It's interesting to read all this where everyone and everything has decided, people know what Putin has in his head when he attacks Ukraine, and then Ponyville...
Okay, at least for now you can count Russia's technical defeat in the war with Ukraine due to non-appearance by the appointed date of the war.

And yet, I think it's necessary to tell the Kremlin's position, it's for you in your media.
The Kremlin believes that Kiev is planning a military revenge and the forceful subjugation of the rebels in the Donbas, because the popularity and reputation of the Ukrainian authorities is in question, Zelensky wants to raise his popularity through military victories. On the border with Donbass today, 100 thousand people of the Ukrainian army are also concentrated on the Ukrainian side, which Putin could not help but react to. The presence of the Russian army near the borders is a clear signal to Kiev that it will not capture Donbass by military means. The collective West is playing along with the Kiev authorities, exposing Russia as an aggressor and allegedly existing plans to seize Ukraine, hysteria is being whipped up in the hope that the Kremlin will be afraid of sanctions... this is absolute stupidity. Yes, sanctions are unpleasant and can even be very heavy, but allowing Kiev to arrange a massacre in the Donbas is political suicide for Putin in the eyes of Russians, he is much more afraid of this than sanctions.
If Kiev attacks Donbass, Putin will send troops, no further than the same Donbass... and what will happen then is a separate conversation.
 
Fabiusbile said:
It's interesting to read all this where everyone and everything has decided, people know what Putin has in his head when he attacks Ukraine, and then Ponyville...
Okay, at least for now you can count Russia's technical defeat in the war with Ukraine due to non-appearance by the appointed date of the war.

And yet, I think it's necessary to tell the Kremlin's position, it's for you in your media.
The Kremlin believes that Kiev is planning a military revenge and the forceful subjugation of the rebels in the Donbas, because the popularity and reputation of the Ukrainian authorities is in question, Zelensky wants to raise his popularity through military victories. On the border with Donbass today, 100 thousand people of the Ukrainian army are also concentrated on the Ukrainian side, which Putin could not help but react to. The presence of the Russian army near the borders is a clear signal to Kiev that it will not capture Donbass by military means. The collective West is playing along with the Kiev authorities, exposing Russia as an aggressor and allegedly existing plans to seize Ukraine, hysteria is being whipped up in the hope that the Kremlin will be afraid of sanctions... this is absolute stupidity. Yes, sanctions are unpleasant and can even be very heavy, but allowing Kiev to arrange a massacre in the Donbas is political suicide for Putin in the eyes of Russians, he is much more afraid of this than sanctions.
If Kiev attacks Donbass, Putin will send troops, no further than the same Donbass... and what will happen then is a separate conversation.
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Sorry but the rebels in the Donbas see themselves as russian first and Ukrainian second. When Putin invaded Ukraine he whipped up anomosity on both sides. This created the tensions in the Donbas. Both sides are now shitty to each other. But Ukraine is Ukraine. The Russians living in the Donbas are morally wrong. They should lay down their arms.
 
justoneman said:
The Russians living in the Donbas are morally wrong
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These are the twists of morality and moral lessons to me from an American...
That is, in 2014 the Ukrainians overthrew the legitimately elected president in Kiev, appointed a non-democratically elected government, among which there were outspoken nationalists like Yarosh and according to your logic they had the right to do so, Yanukovych is bad, okay.
Ethnic Russians of Donbass at the same time, seeing how people came to power in Kiev through a coup, and the formation of a new government was without democracy and elections at all, the Russians of Donbass do not have the right to their uprising, right? Because the Russians? Because the orcs?

I'm sorry, this kind of morality is alien to me.
 
Fabiusbile said:
These are the twists of morality and moral lessons to me from an American...
That is, in 2014 the Ukrainians overthrew the legitimately elected president in Kiev, appointed a non-democratically elected government, among which there were outspoken nationalists like Yarosh and according to your logic they had the right to do so, Yanukovych is bad, okay.
Ethnic Russians of Donbass at the same time, seeing how people came to power in Kiev through a coup, and the formation of a new government was without democracy and elections at all, the Russians of Donbass do not have the right to their uprising, right? Because the Russians? Because the orcs?

I'm sorry, this kind of morality is alien to me.
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As if Putin himself has not poisoned and jailed any opposition to him in power. Give me a break on the legitimacy of the current leader in Ukraine. The underhanded nature of elections in Ukraine have been going for decades on both sides: the Russian friendly parties and the western friendly parties.
 
justoneman said:
As if Putin himself has not poisoned and jailed any opposition to him in power. Give me a break on the legitimacy of the current leader in Ukraine. The underhanded nature of elections in Ukraine have been going for decades on both sides: the Russian friendly parties and the western friendly parties.
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No, the question is in another plane: Why do Ukrainians in Kiev have the right to rebel and seize power, and the Russians of Donbass at the same time do not?
 
Fabiusbile said:
No, the question is in another plane: Why do Ukrainians in Kiev have the right to rebel and seize power, and the Russians of Donbass at the same time do not?
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Don't you mean Ukrainians and Ukrainians?
 
justoneman said:
Don't you mean Ukrainians and Ukrainians?
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Yes, even ethnic Hungarians who also live in Ukraine.
Why do people in Kiev have the right to revolt, but at the same time in Donetsk they do not? Why are they morally wrong with you?
 
Fabiusbile said:
Yes, even ethnic Hungarians who also live in Ukraine.
Why do people in Kiev have the right to revolt, but at the same time in Donetsk they do not? Why are they morally wrong with you?
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Revolt? Meaning the Orange revolution? You are going all the way back to that?
 
Well now we are getting to the heart of this whole conflict when talking about the "revolt" as you call it. Ukraine is divided, between Russian interests and EU and western interests. The whole orange revolution was started with Yanukovych rejecting the EU trade agreement. The majority of people wanted that agreement of trade with the EU. Instead he took a big loan of money with Russia. It has always been a tug of war over influence over Ukraine. Why is Russia hanging on to the ideals of the cold war? Why not become a part of western Europe? This is the big question.
 
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Fabiusbile said:
It's interesting to read all this where everyone and everything has decided, people know what Putin has in his head when he attacks Ukraine, and then Ponyville...
Okay, at least for now you can count Russia's technical defeat in the war with Ukraine due to non-appearance by the appointed date of the war.
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So given Putin has constantly and consistently referred to "military-technical measures," and you are declaring that Putin has suffered "Russia's technical defeat" in "the war with Ukraine," the question is what technical defeat has Putin suffered. And what would that leave Putin on the front end of the term, ie, militarily.

First of course is what does this Russian gobbledygook term mean, military-technical measures.

The military half is clear enough, ne c'est pas: tanks rolling forward blasting away supported by the air force overhead blasting away and so on.

Which leaves "technical" in military-technical to mean measures that constitute enforced arms control. Most specifically the imposition, by force if necessary, of certain restraints or prohibitions on foreign arms deliveries to Ukraine; on stationing of NATO personnel in Ukraine; on military overflight of Ukraine or parts of it; and on NATO operations in close proximity to Ukraine’s borders. If you believe Putin may mean something other than this kindly speak up now or forever hold your peace.

Because I see just today Putin and NATO are in fact still talking about Russia inspecting NATO/US missiles in Poland while NATO inspects Russian missiles in Kaliningrad and Belarus.

Yet it would be a defeat for Putin if as you say there's no agreement on NATO overflights of Ukraine, that NATO will continue NATO operations exercises along Ukraine borders, that NATO would continue to station its personnel in Ukraine and so on. So if 50% of Putin's two pronged strategy has gone bust already, that would leave him with military only to pursue. That might not be worth it to 'em eh.
 
"military-technical measures" probably refers to cyber-warfare.
 
Fabiusbile said:
The Kremlin believes that Kiev is planning a military revenge and the forceful subjugation of the rebels in the Donbas, because the popularity and reputation of the Ukrainian authorities is in question, Zelensky wants to raise his popularity through military victories. On the border with Donbass today, 100 thousand people of the Ukrainian army are also concentrated on the Ukrainian side, which Putin could not help but react to. The presence of the Russian army near the borders is a clear signal to Kiev that it will not capture Donbass by military means. The collective West is playing along with the Kiev authorities, exposing Russia as an aggressor and allegedly existing plans to seize Ukraine, hysteria is being whipped up in the hope that the Kremlin will be afraid of sanctions... this is absolute stupidity. Yes, sanctions are unpleasant and can even be very heavy, but allowing Kiev to arrange a massacre in the Donbas is political suicide for Putin in the eyes of Russians, he is much more afraid of this than sanctions.
If Kiev attacks Donbass, Putin will send troops, no further than the same Donbass... and what will happen then is a separate conversation.
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Russian state TV has been pushing non-stop propaganda about supposed Ukrainian "atrocities" and "genocide" against Ukrainian citizens in Donbass (just Google Russia, Ukraine, genocide).

Sounds like you believe the propaganda.
 
justoneman said:
I have my opinion of it. You have yours. I'm fine with that. If I'm wrong and Russia moves in then I will say I was wrong. You do the same if it's reversed.
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It looks like I am wrong....unfortunately.
 
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