Being LGBT is Not a Sin

[Lisa]

You're seriously trying to tell me there is not such thing as LGBTQ activists? I can't agree with that.

No there aren't because the idea doesn't make a lick of sense. People are either born LGFBT or they aren't. Its not a choice. If it was a choice then conversion or reparative therapy would work to make people CIS or heterosexual but it is a fact that you cannot make yourself not be trans ot not be gay/bi/les. There are people who openly fight for LGBTIQ+ rights/equality but they aren't trying to convince hetero and CIS to be LGBT. That idea is laughably absurd.

As for percentages of LGBTQ people, look at the research, the numbers of people identifying as LGBTQ has increased dramatically. This is obviously a result of the cultural changes, which include increasing attacks on Christianity, and an effort to make Christianity more "progressive".

People are becoming far more open abut their sexuality and gender identity but there are not more LGBT people being born or people choosing to be LGBT. In the past possibly 1/4 to a 1./3 refused to be open that they were LGBT or they tried to repress and deny it, but that idea is ending.

My God has not made anyone LGBTQ anymore than he made me a sinner (which I am). That is the result of sin entering the world and because God gives people free will. That includes the free will to reject Him, but a more Godless society does have its consequences, as we have been seeing with the rise of more violent crime.

If there are LGBT people and your god is omniscient and omnipotent then logically he had to make them that way. They would not exist otherwise if he exists and he is all powerful and all knowing. If he is a powerful enough to create a universe and everything in it as Christians believe then certainly he could have made them CIS and hetero, but he didnt they were born LGBT. The fact that not all Christian sects believe that beingf LGBT ius a sin. Maybe there is a message there that you might want to consider. Matthew 7:12

I do not hate LGBTQ people, I don't understand why you insist that I do. I certainly have not said it. I don't agree with the agenda to promote that lifestyle because I do not believe that lifestyle will bring happiness to people, since it is not in unison with God's perfect plan, which most people do not accept. However, people are free to do what they wish, I am not trying to stop anyone from being what they want. I simply do not agree with the agenda, nor do i feel obligated to support it, as I've said repeatedly.

There is no agenda and there is no gay lifestyle. If your god exist then they are part of your gods perfect plan because he made them that way if he is all powerful and all knowing. Maybe he isn't all powerful and all knowing, but if that is true then why do you pray to him (he doesn't hear your silent prayers and he isn't powerful enough to answer them) and call him god. If they do exist then he created them, so it can't be a sin to be LGBT if they d had no choice in the matter.
You are stuck in a logical conundrum. This is an either/or situation.

How could you possibly be forced by the government to support it, even if it were possible?

 

[Phys251]

I disagree that you can't indoctrinate anyone to be LGBTQ. Our culture makes it s attractive for young people to be LGBTQ, they get parades and colorful rainbows and there's a gender unicorn, and some teachers will give out special treats to kids who identify as LGBTQ. Do you think people naturally grow up to refer to themselves as they/them?

I do not treat gay people any different than I treat anyone else, I try to give respect to anyone I interact with.

They are no more or less people than I am. I simply don't support the activist agenda. And you can believe what you want, but it's clear to me that the Bible depicts homosexual activity as sinful. Again, we are all sinful, homosexuals no more so than I. God has given us a plan to deal with sin, salvation and grace through the blood of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean you should fly a flag to express how proud you are of your sins, or your particular favorite sin. When Jesus forgave the adulterer, He told her to go and sin no more, He didn't tell her to go and start an activist movement promoting adultery.

 

[forn]

People are becoming far more open abut their sexuality and gender identity but there are not more LGBT people being born or people choosing to be LGBT. In the past possibly 1/4 to a 1./3 refused to be open that they were LGBT or they tried to repress and deny it, but that idea is ending.

There are more people choosing to be LGBTQ today than ever before, and there are examples of changing from identifying with one gender/orientation to another, sometimes frequently. We will have to disagree about the cause. You say it is happening because stigmas have been removed. I say it is happening because our culture promotes it. Also the increasing moral decay in our society contributes to it. For example, there is research that viewing pornography increases homosexual behavior, as people become desensitized to more "vanilla" forms of sex.

There is no agenda and there is no gay lifestyle. If your god exist then they are part of your gods perfect plan because he made them that way if he is all powerful and all knowing. Maybe he isn't all powerful and all knowing, but if that is true then why do you pray to him (he doesn't hear your silent prayers and he isn't powerful enough to answer them) and call him god. If they do exist then he created them, so it can't be a sin to be LGBT if they d had no choice in the matter.
You are stuck in a logical conundrum. This is an either/or situation.

That is a tired old atheist argument that is not a logical conundrum, but a strawman. God did not create a species of robots who could not disobey him, we are given free will. We can choose to love Him, deny His existence, or whatever we wish to do. If you wish to argue about the existence of God, I would point you to forums that are dedicated to that subject, because in my experience those arguments quickly become circular and go nowhere. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.

Thank you for your mature and well reasoned comment.

 

[Phys251]

There are more people choosing to be LGBTQ today than ever before, and there are examples of changing from identifying with one gender/orientation to another, sometimes frequently. We will have to disagree about the cause. You say it is happening because stigmas have been removed. I say it is happening because our culture promotes it. Also the increasing moral decay in our society contributes to it. For example, there is research that viewing pornography increases homosexual behavior, as people become desensitized to more "vanilla" forms of sex.



That is a tired old atheist argument that is not a logical conundrum, but a strawman. God did not create a species of robots who could not disobey him, we are given free will. We can choose to love Him, deny His existence, or whatever we wish to do. If you wish to argue about the existence of God, I would point you to forums that are dedicated to that subject, because in my experience those arguments quickly become circular and go nowhere. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.

Thank you for your mature and well reasoned comment.

I save them for intelligent comments. Yours wasn't one of them.

 

[Lisa]

There are more people choosing to be LGBTQ today than ever before, and there are examples of changing from identifying with one gender/orientation to another, sometimes frequently. We will have to disagree about the cause. You say it is happening because stigmas have been removed. I say it is happening because our culture promotes it. Also the increasing moral decay in our society contributes to it. For example, there is research that viewing pornography increases homosexual behavior, as people become desensitized to more "vanilla" forms of sex.

Once again nobody chooses to be LGBT then they choose to be left or to be nearsighted. You can make this claim 100 times and 100 times it will be wrong.

That is a tired old atheist argument that is not a logical conundrum, but a strawman. God did not create a species of robots who could not disobey him, we are given free will. We can choose to love Him, deny His existence, or whatever we wish to do. If you wish to argue about the existence of God, I would point you to forums that are dedicated to that subject, because in my experience those arguments quickly become circular and go nowhere. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.



Thank you for your mature and well reasoned comment.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Plenty of religions claim being LGBT is a grievous sin against God and against creation. Some religions go so far as to demand the death penalty like in Islam and in certain Christian African countries. Gay rights still do not exist in atheist regimes such as China, Vietnam, etc. As it pertains to Christianity though, the Bible does not call being LGBT a sin, and science would argue that LGBT people are born this way and literally "knit in the womb" by God Himself as queer individuals.

In more recent times the Bible has been warped to read as "homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God" with an anti-LGBT message being preached to the LGBT community. The mainstream evangelical church has taken several approaches to the LGBT question. At first, being LGBT was labelled as a mental disease/disorder to be "cured" through therapy, conversion camps, prayer, and mental healing by God. Abusive conversion therapy was mainstream which resulted in numerous sham marriages, suicides, addiction, and other spiritual and mental anguish. Lately, the church has adopted more of a "LGBT people must be celibate to please God." Attempts to change one's sexual orientation or gender identity have failed and resulted in much harm, so the more popular approach is to state that being LGBT is a result of living in a fallen world and God wants all LGBT people to be celibate, single, and deny themselves to follow Christ. Such an approach seems diametrically opposed to the Heart and Mind of God, as God clearly says in 1 Corinthians that marriage, sex, and romantic love are good things created by God and those who struggle with lust should wed lest they struggle forever. 1 Corinthians 7: 5-9"5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.6I say this as a concession, not as a command.7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am.9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

The Bible seemingly affirms man and woman marriage, however hermeneutical study would state the intended audience had no concept of same-sex attraction, homosexuality, transgender identity, or a concept of same-sex romantic love. The Heart and Mind of God by extrapolation given the original intent seems to affirm that God created us as sexual beings and for those who's spiritual gift is not celibacy or singleness, that they should wed. Stating the spiritual gift of all LGBT people is celibacy and prescribing a life of lonliness goes against what the Holy Spirit is conveying through Paul.

"Arsenokoites" and "malakos" are two words commonly merged to read as "homosexual" in newer translations of the Bible. Martin Luther, early church fathers, and subsequent use of such words pointed to "male child molesters" or some kind of abusive sex practices. https://www.forgeonline.org/blog/2019/3/8/what-about-romans-124-27

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but secular governments have no say in what is or isn't a sin. That is entirely dependent on the specific religion you choose to follow, and in my religion, it's really clear.

This is really as simple as 2+2.

 

[LittleNipper]

Democrats: "Let's vote on the 10 Commandments. Pretty sure we can weed out a few. While we are at it, let's vote if there is a GOD or not..."

 

[Phys251]

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but secular governments have no say in what is or isn't a sin. That is entirely dependent on the specific religion you choose to follow, and in my religion, it's really clear.

This is really as simple as 2+2.

Yes, and churches should have no say over how our government works. The separation between church and state is two-way.

Democrats: "Let's vote on the 10 Commandments. Pretty sure we can weed out a few. While we are at it, let's vote if there is a GOD or not..."

Freedom of religion includes freedom FROM religion. Why should I be forced to obey "thou shalt not covet"?

 

[forn]

Freedom of religion includes freedom FROM religion. Why should I be forced to obey "thou shalt not covet"?

This thread though, centers around how the left is trying to redefine what religions see as sin. And this has been successful in more left leaning churches.

 

[Lisa]

This thread though, centers around how the left is trying to redefine what religions see as sin. And this has been successful in more left leaning churches.

Any religion can define what sin is. It's OK because they redefine everything else in the bible according to their beliefs and the congrats that they choose to pander to as a way of extracting money and control of their lives. Nobody cares what your religion claims to be a sin because we do not have to live our lives around your religious beliefs or those of anyone else. This is why we have the wall of separation between church and state to keep religious belief, that is voluntary, out of the equal relgious rights of others to belieeve or not to believe as they choose as well as the secular rights and e freedoms of everyone else. unless I can force you to obey my beliefs, because it seems that you want to trample on everyone else.

You have a problem with logic but that's understandable because most religious beliefs have a problem with logic. Theistic religious belief is not logical and never has been

 

[DarkWizard12]

Yes, and churches should have no say over how our government works. The separation between church and state is two-way.

You're mixing 2 unrelated questions. If you want to talk about church and state, theres a whole other forum for it here: https://debatepolitics.com/forums/church-and-state.101/

 

[Individual]

You're mixing 2 unrelated questions. If you want to talk about church and state, theres a whole other forum for it here: https://debatepolitics.com/forums/church-and-state.101/

Actually, IMO, this thread belongs in the "Beliefs and Skepticism" forum as it uses the word "sin".

 

[forn]

Nobody cares what your religion claims to be a sin because we do not have to live our lives around your religious beliefs or those of anyone else.

This was not my point at all. My point is that the subject of this thread is whether or not LGBTQ is a sin. That is a theological/religious matter, not a political statement. Nevertheless, there is a political agenda at play to tell religions what to believe, what is or is not a sin.

 

[Bodi]

If God exists and created people, some of whom are gay, that's his responsibility. So Christians who have a problem with gay people ultimately have a problem with God.

No. It is Adam and Eve's responsibility,..

 

[Bodi]

Homosexual behavior sensually polluted Sodom and Gomorrah along with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar/Bela (eventually) all the cities of the plain.

What do critics do ---- but make one feel uncomfortable regarding what they observe.

Every man is only entitled to seeking out one woman according to the Bible. They also can spread diseases to the general population through fornicating bisexuals.

The Bible has some nice allegories `but overall it is a pretty stupid thing to live one's life by and even more idiotic to think some God dictated/

 

[Lisa]

This was not my point at all. My point is that the subject of this thread is whether or not LGBTQ is a sin. That is a theological/religious matter, not a political statement. Nevertheless, there is a political agenda at play to tell religions what to believe, what is or is not a sin.

50 different protestant churches have 50 different stances on both sin and LGBT.

Our free speech rights do not mean that a church has to change its stance on anything, including the colors of the cushions on the pews. Sin is a wholly religious matter. It only becomes political when you seek to force non-members to obey it or seek tax dollars to support your church.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Actually, IMO, this thread belongs in the "Beliefs and Skepticism" forum as it uses the word "sin".

perhaps, but this has nothig to do with separation of church and state here.

 

[LittleNipper]

Yes, and churches should have no say over how our government works. The separation between church and state is two-way.

Actually, there is nothing sinister with CHRISTIANS influencing the workings of either government nor its laws. Just as government influences the building codes of the sanctuaries for the safety of the general public.

Freedom of religion includes freedom FROM religion. Why should I be forced to obey "thou shalt not covet"?

Actually, freedom does not protect anyone from other ideas nor values. It does provide opportunities for the citizens to express themselves openly and make everyone answerable through their own conscience as to the validity of what has been expressed. This is a reason that the attempt at removal of the mention of GOD and various religious beliefs from public education is intrinsically wrong, as it doesn't allow students the opportunity to learn to formulate their own opinion when faced with both good and bad ideas. They are cheated of the skill of discernment. And this makes them quite vulnerable as the mature and face the real world.

 

[LittleNipper]

The Bible has some nice allegories `but overall it is a pretty stupid thing to live one's life by and even more idiotic to think some God dictated/

So what should some use to live his life by?

 

[Irredentist]

Actually, there is nothing sinister with CHRISTIANS influencing the workings of either government nor its laws. Just as government influences the building codes of the sanctuaries for the safety of the general public.

Actually, freedom does not protect anyone from other ideas nor values. It does provide opportunities for the citizens to express themselves openly and make everyone answerable through their own conscience as to the validity of what has been expressed. This is a reason that the attempt at removal of the mention of GOD and various religious beliefs from public education is intrinsically wrong, as it doesn't allow students the opportunity to learn to formulate their own opinion when faced with both good and bad ideas. They are cheated of the skill of discernment. And this makes them quite vulnerable as the mature and face the real world.

Actually, religion is the single greatest obstacle to critical thought. Religion teaches people to accept dogma without question, to believe in things based purely on faith, without a shred of logic to back them up. I too wish for all students to have the skill of discernment. But Christianity is filled with bad ideas that do not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Evilroddy]

Why is it this post is even necessary in this day and age?

Sorry, but this is a fight we won in the 90's, when I say 'we' I mean me and my gay & lesbian friends with whom I became sober.

Fearandloathing:

In changing societies, battles over social issues and justice are never really won or lost, they're just under cease fire armistices. As long as some segment of a society's population still holds on to anti-LGBTQ+ beliefs and convictions, then their capacity to grow in influence and to reassert old predjudices remains. How do we change that in a liberal, democratic society? I don't know the answer to that.

What NEEDS challenging is the right of the church to interfere people's lives.

I agree, but in a a society which protects freedom of religion that is almost impossible. Only through illiberal and authoritarian secular rule can such ideas be effectively suppressed.

God hates religion with good reason, religion, not God has killed, maimed and tortured more people than have even been baptized. Religion was invented and remains no more than a means to control people's behavior. Read the old testament, Laviticus, where they tell you to burn down your house if you have mildew and to cook fish with smoke and not fire.

And Rome? The "Pontiff" has signed "Papal Bulls" which still stand that legalizes colonialist take overs of any land not already occupied by a European....thus a giant commercial slave trade was born.

Yes, the Doctrine of Discovery still stands and the popes still refuse to rescind it. That is disgusting. But does Canada or the USA have the licence to force the Vatican to change that policy or any other matter of dogma?

Then there is the rape of children. I know I am supposed to call it 'sexual abuse' but it's rape nonetheless. How the **** do they get off banning gays when they are ****ing children?

Power and influence. They are powerful shields.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Maccabee]

No. It is Adam and Eve's responsibility,..

Well, they're dead, so...

 

[Phys251]

Actually, there is nothing sinister with CHRISTIANS influencing the workings of either government nor its laws. Just as government influences the building codes of the sanctuaries for the safety of the general public.

Actually, freedom does not protect anyone from other ideas nor values. It does provide opportunities for the citizens to express themselves openly and make everyone answerable through their own conscience as to the validity of what has been expressed. This is a reason that the attempt at removal of the mention of GOD and various religious beliefs from public education is intrinsically wrong, as it doesn't allow students the opportunity to learn to formulate their own opinion when faced with both good and bad ideas. They are cheated of the skill of discernment. And this makes them quite vulnerable as the mature and face the real world.

Actually, you're wrong. Our government is a secular government designed for people of all religions and no religion.

 

[Evilroddy]

Actually, there is nothing sinister with CHRISTIANS influencing the workings of either government nor its laws. Just as government influences the building codes of the sanctuaries for the safety of the general public.

LittleNipper:

If and only if American Christian citizens attempt to influence their governments' policies on their own or as part of grassroots political organisations. The moment Christians start using their churches or federations of churches as leverage to effect political change, that is organised religion attempting to shape government policy. That runs up against the Separation of Church and State provision in your constitution.

Actually, freedom does not protect anyone from other ideas nor values. It does provide opportunities for the citizens to express themselves openly and make everyone answerable through their own conscience as to the validity of what has been expressed. This is a reason that the attempt at removal of the mention of GOD and various religious beliefs from public education is intrinsically wrong, as it doesn't allow students the opportunity to learn to formulate their own opinion when faced with both good and bad ideas. They are cheated of the skill of discernment. And this makes them quite vulnerable as the mature and face the real world.

Mentioning of God in school curricula is not necessary for inoculating positive moral and ethical beliefs and behaviours into children. Teaching of various religious beliefs is not necessary to imprint good moral and ethical behaviour patterns on the young either. This can be done through secular means. Just because a principle has its origins in a Judeo-Christian tradition does not mean that such a principle cannot be taught in a secular public school classroom by secular means.

If public schools start promoting the religious values as determined by religious churches then there will be both chaos and trouble. Can Catholic parents insist that the public school curriculum in their Catholic-dominated school district stress their interpretation of these principles or can Baptists do the same? Some sect or religion will lose out in this process and that will foster unrest in communities. How would you feel about your kids being forced to learn about the tales of Hanuman or Ganesh if Hindu parents had control of a local school curriculum? Would you be okay with your kids being imprinted with the principles of the Seven Pillars of Islam as part of their elementary school curriculum in a Muslim-dominated school district?

Schools don't let students form their own opinions and beliefs about core values and morals, they never have. One of the roles of schools is to "socialise" students into the larger society around them. If a student believes that the concept of private property is a capitalist chauvinism and thus takes the pencils of other students to complete her great work of art for the benefit of the whole class, the teacher will still intervene and discipline the student for not following American societal norms about property. So removing certain problematic religious beliefs/principles or problematic secular beliefs/principles from the population is one of the jobs which public schools do. Discernment skills come later when basic societal ethics have been rooted in young minds.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[LittleNipper]

LittleNipper:

If and only if American Christian citizens attempt to influence their governments' policies on their own or as part of grassroots political organisations. The moment Christians start using their churches or federations of churches as leverage to effect political change, that is organised religion attempting to shape government policy. That runs up against the Separation of Church and State provision in your constitution.

Mentioning of God in school curricula is not necessary for inoculating positive moral and ethical beliefs and behaviours into children. Teaching of various religious beliefs is not necessary to imprint good moral and ethical behaviour patterns on the young either. This can be done through secular means. Just because a principle has its origins in a Judeo-Christian tradition does not mean that such a principle cannot be taught in a secular public school classroom by secular means.

If public schools start promoting the religious values as determined by religious churches then there will be both chaos and trouble. Can Catholic parents insist that the public school curriculum in their Catholic-dominated school district stress their interpretation of these principles or can Baptists do the same? Some sect or religion will lose out in this process and that will foster unrest in communities. How would you feel about your kids being forced to learn about the tales of Hanuman or Ganesh if Hindu parents had control of a local school curriculum? Would you be okay with your kids being imprinted with the principles of the Seven Pillars of Islam as part of their elementary school curriculum in a Muslim-dominated school district?

Schools don't let students form their own opinions and beliefs about core values and morals, they never have. One of the roles of schools is to "socialise" students into the larger society around them. If a student believes that the concept of private property is a capitalist chauvinism and thus takes the pencils of other students to complete her great work of art for the benefit of the whole class, the teacher will still intervene and discipline the student for not following American societal norms about property. So removing certain problematic religious beliefs/principles or problematic secular beliefs/principles from the population is one of the jobs which public schools do. Discernment skills come later when basic societal ethics have been rooted in young minds.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

I'm sorry, but until 1963 the American public school system was not terrible and it seems to me that few children got shot while attending. We had short readings (opening exercises) usually from the Old Testament, and everyone loved GOD BLESS AMERICA or AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL or COLUMBIA or the Star SPANGLED BANNER. We celebrated the arrival of the Pilgrims and Thanksgiving. None of the kids believed that the pilgrims arrived to taste the turkey. At Christmas we had a Christmas Party. We knew Easter was coming. None of the children felt slighted or left out. As for politics in churches, I feel you will have to speak to Black churches and the Democratic Party about that. They do it and it has been what they do since the freeing of the slaves. The only problematic issues I see are those who would try to devise various ways to instigate issues about gender and sexual orientation. Such things we never spoke about, didn't know about, and didn't care about.