BBC Flotilla Documentary: Attack on IDF Was Premeditated

[alexa]

He says it at about 1:10 or so into the video.
He says that about two hours before the attack, they've started seeing the IDF boats surrounding the ship from afar, and then he has seen a group of activists starting to dismantle "steels and chains" from the ship.

He says he found a few and threw them overboard. He says he told them not to do this. If they just wait there will be no fight and no one will be killed. The people on board that boat believed they were going to be killed.

One of the things that has not been addressed satisfactorily is the Israeli's telling the flotilla people there was going to be lethal consequences. This is what one of the journalists on another boat has said they were told and I listened to old tapes of a different journey where they were told they would be shot at.

It appears extremely likely that the Turkish people believed they were going to die. That is the problem in telling people you are going to kill them -some believe and fight back. Previous flotillas have believed they were going to die and been prepared to die without a fight. These people were different.

In no way did they come for a fight. There is no evidence for that.

Israel made a blunder in telling them they were going to be killed. They believed it and decided for what they could they could to defend themselves. There is no evidence that there was anything else going on.

 

[Apocalypse]

He says he found a few and threw them overboard. He says he told them not to do this. If they just wait there will be no fight and no one will be killed. The people on board that boat believed they were going to be killed.

One of the things that has not been addressed satisfactorily is the Israeli's telling the flotilla people there was going to be lethal consequences. This is what one of the journalists on another boat has said they were told and I listened to old tapes of a different journey where they were told they would be shot at.

It appears extremely likely that the Turkish people believed they were going to die. That is the problem in telling people you are going to kill them -some believe and fight back. Previous flotillas have believed they were going to die and been prepared to die without a fight. These people were different.

In no way did they come for a fight. There is no evidence for that.

Israel made a blunder in telling them they were going to be killed. They believed it and decided for what they could they could to defend themselves. There is no evidence that there was anything else going on.

I've just provided contradicting evidence that they were getting ready for a fight two hours before the boarding even took place. Besides that there were also the videos showing them looking at the IDF boats and picking up weapons.
There was absolutely no justification for the activists' actions and as the BBC doc says the attack was premeditated, all of the evidence points towards that conclusion and even the BBC couldn't deny it.
Such act of aggression against soldiers who are equipped with paintball rifles as they merely seek to inspect a ship is unacceptable, and fortunately it ended the way it did (physically, not politically).

 

[Mira]

He says it at about 1:10 or so into the video.
He says that about two hours before the attack, they've started seeing the IDF boats surrounding the ship from afar, and then he has seen a group of activists starting to dismantle "steels and chains" from the ship.

They saw the IDF boats and they started to dismantle steels and chains to use as weapons. Survival instinct.

1-That doesn't mean that the violence was premeditated, it means the exact contrary

2- That means they weren't carrying ALOT of weapons because if that was so they wouldn't be needing improvised weapons ie: metal rods and chains.

 

[Apocalypse]

They saw the IDF boats and they started to dismantle steels and chains to use as weapons. Survival instinct.

1-That doesn't mean that the violence was premeditated, it means the exact contrary

2- That means they weren't carrying ALOT of weapons because if that was so they wouldn't be needing improvised weapons ie: metal rods and chains.

1) This makes no sense at all, if they were dismantling weapons before the IDF has arrived then yes it was premeditated, and that's besides the boxes of knives and slingshots and marbles.

2) Or they were planning on dismantling them from the ship all along. Either way it is premeditated violence.

And no, no survival instinct there, they knew the IDF will be coming to stop them since they've set sail to the Gazan port.

 

[alexa]

I've just provided contradicting evidence that they were getting ready for a fight two hours before the boarding even took place.

That is not contradictory evidence. The Israelis surrounded the boats for I think around 4 hours before they attacked. Further in the previous journey when they were told they would be shot at, they were told that they were going to be fired on the night before Israelis boarded their vessel. They spent the night not knowing whether they would be dead or alive the next day. You know that the Israelis have also in the past rammed Free Gaza boats.

 

[Apocalypse]

That is not contradictory evidence. The Israelis surrounded the boats for I think around 4 hours before they attacked. Further in the previous journey when they were told they would be shot at, they were told that they were going to be fired on the night before Israelis boarded their vessel. They spent the night not knowing whether they would be dead or alive the next day. You know that the Israelis have also in the past rammed Free Gaza boats.

Rammed and didn't cause any fatalities or serious injuries, yes.
If Israel wanted them dead they would be dead before they see one boat.

Besides that when a cop says "freeze or I shoot" you don't shoot the cop, you freeze.
Basically I can see that your arguments for the violent activists have only weakened drastically and gradually since the 31st of May, which is a good thing, maybe one day you'll finally reach the truth.

 

[alexa]

Rammed and didn't cause any fatalities or serious injuries, yes.
If Israel wanted them dead they would be dead before they see one boat.

Besides that when a cop says "freeze or I shoot" you don't shoot the cop, you freeze.
Basically I can see that your arguments for the violent activists have only weakened drastically and gradually since the 31st of May, which is a good thing, maybe one day you'll finally reach the truth.

I am not going to argue this any more. I made my point and it remains valid.

 

[Apocalypse]

I am not going to argue this any more. I made my point and it remains valid.

Suit yourself, your point is still invalid.

 

[justabubba]

i see the OP is still desperately trying to find justification for the IDF murder of those on board an unarmed ship in international waters

 

[alexa]

Suit yourself, your point is still invalid.

My point was not invalid. You changed the suibject. You do that a lot in your posts.

 

[Apocalypse]

My point was not invalid. You changed the suibject. You do that a lot in your posts.

No, I don't change the suibject, but your point was invalid, and you haven't answered my reply to it so I have no bloody reason to think otherwise.

 

[alexa]

No, I don't change the suibject, but your point was invalid, and you haven't answered my reply to it so I have no bloody reason to think otherwise.

YAWN. post 51 http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...attack-idf-premeditated-6.html#post1058934522

to which you reply

I've just provided contradicting evidence that they were getting ready for a fight two hours before the boarding even took place.

to which I reply

That is not contradictory evidence. The Israelis surrounded the boats for I think around 4 hours before they attacked.

You have not refuted the point I made in post 51. I have little desire or interest to even answer this post and certainly not to get into ever ending dramas. My point is valid. The people on the boat believed they were going to die. They had been told they were going to experience 'lethal consequences'. There was no premeditation. The fact that they started cutting railings for self defence 2 hours before the boarding does not show premeditation because the Israelis were sat there 4 hours before. If anything it showed they waited expecting there death at any minute for 2 hours before they cut the railings.

(anyone interested in a better account of what I said, link to post 51 above). Now I have less boring things to do. In time the truth will out.

 

[Apocalypse]

YAWN. post 51 http://www.debatepolitics.com/middl...attack-idf-premeditated-6.html#post1058934522

to which you reply

to which I reply



You have not refuted the point I made in post 51. I have little desire or interest to even answer this post and certainly not to get into ever ending dramas. My point is valid. The people on the boat believed they were going to die. They had been told they were going to experience 'lethal consequences'. There was no premeditation. The fact that they started cutting railings for self defence 2 hours before the boarding does not show premeditation because the Israelis were sat there 4 hours before. If anything it showed they waited expecting there death at any minute for 2 hours before they cut the railings.

(anyone interested in a better account of what I said, link to post 51 above). Now I have less boring things to do. In time the truth will out.

Yes, to which I've replied with:

Rammed and didn't cause any fatalities or serious injuries, yes.
If Israel wanted them dead they would be dead before they see one boat.

Besides that when a cop says "freeze or I shoot" you don't shoot the cop, you freeze.
Basically I can see that your arguments for the violent activists have only weakened drastically and gradually since the 31st of May, which is a good thing, maybe one day you'll finally reach the truth.

Basically your point has no kind of basis in logics or reality, they knew the IDF are coming for them and even if they were told "stop or we shoot" then as I said it's equal to a cop saying stop or I shoot, there's no death promise here and they've apparently planned to assault the soldiers from the beginning having boxes filled with knives and marbles and slingshots.
The BBC has reached this conclusion, maybe in time the more anti-Israeli 'factors' would as well - but then again it could be like the "Lebanese" tree case where the radical anti-Israelis refuse to face reality while the rest of the world including the moderate anti-Israelis do.

 

[Mira]

Yes, to which I've replied with:



Basically your point has no kind of basis in logics or reality, they knew the IDF are coming for them and even if they were told "stop or we shoot" then as I said it's equal to a cop saying stop or I shoot, there's no death promise here and they've apparently planned to assault the soldiers from the beginning having boxes filled with knives and marbles and slingshots.
The BBC has reached this conclusion, maybe in time the more anti-Israeli 'factors' would as well - but then again it could be like the "Lebanese" tree case where the radical anti-Israelis refuse to face reality while the rest of the world including the moderate anti-Israelis do.

If you're using the police metaphor why not use it all the way? so how about the cases where the criminal holds a civilian as a human shield ?

You always claimed that the very high and disproportionate number of civilian casualties of Israeli strikes was because terrorists held civilians as human shields, but Israel bombed the F out of them and killed them anyway.


And here you are calling as "radicals" when we refuse to agree with your assessment that the Lebanese army deliberately provoked Israel.

Let's not change the subject now, but try to be more honest Apocalypse.

 

[alexa]

The BBC has reached this conclusion, .

:rofl WTF do you think the BBC is, the International Court of Human Justice or something?

No, the BBC has not reached it's conclusions. One biased documentary did...believe me, there will be others and the truth will eventually out. Documentaries which feel the need to provide misinformation as I have pointed out this one did, do not provide the truth.

 

[Apocalypse]

:rofl WTF do you think the BBC is, the International Court of Human Justice or something?

No, the BBC has not reached it's conclusions. One biased documentary did...believe me, there will be others and the truth will eventually out. Documentaries which feel the need to provide misinformation as I have pointed out this one did, do not provide the truth.

Ah yes, a documentary that does not reach the torn-off conclusion you want it to reach is obviously "feeling the need to provide misinformation".

 

[Mira]

Hey Apocalypse, I remember very clearly you telling me that you hated documentaries and thought they only talked ****.Have you changed your mind about documentaries all of a sudden ?

 

[Apocalypse]

If you're using the police metaphor why not use it all the way? so how about the cases where the criminal holds a civilian as a human shield ?

You always claimed that the very high and disproportionate number of civilian casualties of Israeli strikes was because terrorists held civilians as human shields, but Israel bombed the F out of them and killed them anyway.


And here you are calling as "radicals" when we refuse to agree with your assessment that the Lebanese army deliberately provoked Israel.

Let's not change the subject now, but try to be more honest Apocalypse.

First of all a cop that is being shot at by a criminal that holds a human shield will indeed draw and fire, and will indeed be justified in doing so, so your analogy is invalid.

Secondly this is off-topic, take it elsewhere, this thread is about the IDF raid on the Gaza flotilla and the actions taken by some of the activists on board the Mavi Marmara.

 

[Apocalypse]

Hey Apocalypse, I remember very clearly you telling me that you hated documentaries and thought they only talked ****.Have you changed your mind about documentaries all of a sudden ?

So you claim I've based my position on this documentary? Hell no, I was saying what it is saying from day one, if anything this documentary was basing its position on mine and on the truth itself.
The thing is that this shows even anti-Israeli media outlets would not be capable of hiding the truth when it's so clear that Israel was in the right.

 

[Mira]

First of all a cop that is being shot at by a criminal that holds a human shield will indeed draw and fire, and will indeed be justified in doing so, so your analogy is invalid.

Secondly this is off-topic, take it elsewhere, this thread is about the IDF raid on the Gaza flotilla and the actions taken by some of the activists on board the Mavi Marmara.

Of course when Israel is involved analogies work only in one sense :doh

At least I agree on this one, let's not change the subject but I'm sure that you got the gist

 

[Mira]

So you claim I've based my position on this documentary? Hell no, I was saying what it is saying from day one, if anything this documentary was basing its position on mine and on the truth itself.
The thing is that this shows even anti-Israeli media outlets would not be capable of hiding the truth when it's so clear that Israel was in the right.

OMG !!! Apocalyse stop it please !!! the documentary is basing its position on yours ???

as alexa said, there will be others and the truth will be known one day.

I still haven't seen the boxes of knives

 

[Apocalypse]

Of course when Israel is involved analogies work only in one sense

I have given you an explanation why your analogy is invalid, it does not take into mind the criminal shooting at the cop, there is hence no relevance to the analogy.

 

[Apocalypse]

OMG !!! Apocalyse stop it please !!! the documentary is basing its position on yours ???

It is basing its position on my position in the sense that both are based directly on the same single obvious truth.

as alexa said, there will be others and the truth will be known one day.

I'm afraid that even if the UN would come up with a statement that the IDF was righteous in the operation you'd still deny it, like you did with the Lebanese attack case, and I say this since in this case Israel is clearly on the right from an objective point of view.

I still haven't seen the boxes of knives

I believe you've posted a picture of their contents yourself a few pages ago.

 

[alexa]

Ah yes, a documentary that does not reach the torn-off conclusion you want it to reach is obviously "feeling the need to provide misinformation".

Apocalypse, stop this rubbish. I have stated where in post 2 and repeated that somewhere else in the thread. This documentary deliberately misled the British people. Anyone who feels the need to do that is not acting in a credible manner.

 

[Mira]

I have given you an explanation why your analogy is invalid, it does not take into mind the criminal shooting at the cop, there is hence no relevance to the analogy.

Yeah right even when the Figian UN troops were begging Israel to stop bombarding their compound where civilians had taken refuge in Qana in 1996.
enjoy the crime
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_shelling_of_Qana

LET US NOT CHANGE THE SUBJECT I WILL NOT POST ANOTHER WORD ON THIS