Bazant Misconduct website is launched[W:111]

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Fledermaus said:

One has to ask.... "So what"?

So what if Bazant and Zhou ventured an educated guess as to what happened?

Structural damage and fire dooming the towers is STILL the only concept that makes any sense.....

Click to expand...

You are correct that it doesn't matter of Bazant and Zhou simply provided the maths confirming what had already happened - what happened is what happened and no paper written days/months/years later can change that. But that isn't strictly speaking what Bazant & Zhou did. Tony has been mi-applying B&Z for years and after years of being told how he has been getting it wrong (including in this thread) lets see if he's figured it out yet.

Not that I'm hopeful mind you. Having utterly failed to persuade with his ridiculous CD nonsense I suspect his last resort is now to defame others. How that helps the CD case of course boggles the mind but CT's don't think that far ahead.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

The first thing I would do in a new investigation would be interviewing several first responders asking 1. how early they were told WTC 7 was in danger of collapse, and 2. who told them (who was that anonymous engineer guy who told Peter Hayden that WTC 7 was going to collapse at "5 or 6 PM"?). Figuring out how this foreknowledge went up the grapevine may lead to the people who did the demolition.

Click to expand...

What's the point of a new investigation? You clearly have already arrived at your conclusion and are just fishing for evidence to support it. That isn't what proper investigations do.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

Just skimming over the witness accounts of first responders regarding the WTC 7 foreknowledge will show that there was indeed a "grapevine". When the fire chiefs describe the genesis of the conclusion that WTC 7 was going to collapse, it's always some vague "they" or "we". Only when Peter Hayden was being specific did it become clear: An "engineer" from Giuliani's Office of Emergency Management went around telling them, at around 1 PM or earlier, that the building was definitely going to collapse from the Twin Tower rubble damage, at around 5 or 6 PM. The first responders were dazed from the Twin Tower collapses and the deaths of their brothers, so their best bet was compying. The official story requires psychic powers and quotes by Peter Hayden and the first repsonders describing being told of the imminent collapse 4+ hours before it happened is evidence for that, and the fact that an unprecedented collapse "from structural failure" was so expected is one of the official story's weakest points, not one of the stronger points at all.

Click to expand...

The FIREFIGHTERS OBSERVED signs of building instability. Long before the collapse. OBSERVED. They would be the WE. What part of WE are you not understanding?

Whether or not some engineer suggested earlier is not signs of "inside job". It just means an engineer did what engineers do. Took an assessment of the situation and correctly predicted the outcome.

MicahJava said:

So what? The point is his findings. He found two artifacts made of an iron-based material. There is enough evidence for exotic accelerants to warrant an investigation into them. A new investigation could do further analyses of other ground zero WTC artifacts.

Click to expand...

What "further analysis" of what "two artifacts made of an iron-based material".

MicahJava said:

Well, whether or not Gage is a charlatan is a dead issue. It's pointless because he and AE911TRUTH do not share the characteristics of scams and scammers.

Click to expand...

He is making money off the ignorance of his followers.....

That IS the characteristic of scammers.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Tony Szamboti said:

It sounds like you missed the part that explained that Bazant never changed things based on new information.

Click to expand...

Nope.

But I did notice you did not answer the question regarding your work nor AE011T, who we know you have close ties with.

Who is behind the site you provided in the OP?

Just so we are clear, what new information and where did it come from? Your work, Scientific America, JAE, etc.?

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Tony Szamboti said:

It sounds like you missed the part that explained that Bazant never changed things based on new information.

Click to expand...

For the cognoscenti there is a delicious re-entrant irony in that bit of (at least partial) truth.

Bazant carried forward the "column crushing" 1D approximation from B&Z into the B&V paper and the "crush down crush up" hypothesis. The approximation is probably good enough for a conventional close column spaced building - is subsumes an assumption of "homogeneity" across the floor plan. (which - after all - is just another way of saying "1D" :roll

Now that was Tony's central error with "Missing Jolt". Bazant used it correctly in B&Z but got it wrong when he applied it to Twin Towers via crush down crush up.

So Bazant fell for Tony's error.

Which makes Bazant one of Tony's converts if we can demonstrate the causality.


Or one of his victims for those who may prefer that term.

True or not it is certainly "re-entrant" or "circular".

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Mark F said:

What's the point of a new investigation? You clearly have already arrived at your conclusion and are just fishing for evidence to support it. That isn't what proper investigations do.

Click to expand...

That's the penny candy of online arguments. It could easily apply to you. Even if I were 100% convinced that the World Trade Center was a controlled demolition, I sure don't know exactly who may have done it.

I still am not 100% convinced of anything, when examining conspiracy theories it's always a good idea to leave wiggle room for skepticism. eace

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

That's the penny candy of online arguments. It could easily apply to you. Even if I were 100% convinced that the World Trade Center was a controlled demolition, I sure don't know exactly who may have done it.

I still am not 100% convinced of anything, when examining conspiracy theories it's always a good idea to leave wiggle room for skepticism. eace

Click to expand...

Interesting... You are mouthing truther talking points and little more. But you think you are a skeptic.

And you cannot define what you think a new investigation would find.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

And yet Beyond Misinformation is available for free on the internet. Booklets with physical pages made of paper cost money. So do sweatshirts and T-shirts and coffee. It contributes to an organization rightfully calling for an investigation that should've been done years ago. Your point?

Click to expand...

Shortly after AE911T announced the mailing of the book I looked for BM. It was not free at that time. Care to provide the link.

" It contributes to an organization rightfully calling for an investigation that should've been done years ago"

. Yes, it is AE911T right to ask for a new investigation.
I have do disagree with part of your statement. An investigation was done regarding 9/11

Much like I disagreed on the tactics they used for the failed High Rise Safety Initiative.

If someone wants to contribute to AE911T that is a personal choice. If you expect taxpayers to pay for a new investigation, I would work to have such an idea rejected.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Fledermaus said:

The FIREFIGHTERS OBSERVED signs of building instability. Long before the collapse. OBSERVED. They would be the WE. What part of WE are you not understanding?

Whether or not some engineer suggested earlier is not signs of "inside job". It just means an engineer did what engineers do. Took an assessment of the situation and correctly predicted the outcome.

Click to expand...

"We had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, if we allowed it to burn, could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon? And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money then. He said, 'In its current state you have about five hours.'" -Chief Peter Hayden, BBC The Conspiracy Files: The Third Tower

"We posed to him the question that considering the structural damage that was obvious to the – to the building on the southwest corner, and the amount of fire damage that was occurring within the building, could we anticipate a collapse and if so, when. He said yes and he gave an approximate time of five to six hours, which was pretty much right on the money because the building collapsed about 5 o’clock that afternoon." -Chief Peter Hayden, Aegis Insurance Services, Inc. v. 7 World Trade Center Company, L.P.http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/a3c33b98-9cbf-4b82-b557-6088e207c8f6/1/doc/11-4403_complete_opn.pdf#xml=http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/a3c33b98-9cbf-4b82-b557-6088e207c8f6/1/hilite/

"Someone from the Office of Emergency Management told us that this building was in serious danger of collapse. The consensus was that it was basically a lost cause and we should no lose anyone else trying to save it. Rich, a few other people and I went inside to the stairwells and started yelling up "Drop everything and get out!" It didn't collapse until much later in the afternoon, but we felt it was better to get everybody out." source: September 11: An Oral History by Dean Murphy


The earliest report of WTC 7 foreknowledge comes from Francis X. Gribbon, who I guess was not actually there, but he was/is a "spokesman" for the NYFD: "Falling debris also caused major structural damage to the building, which soon began burning on multiple floors, said Francis X. Gribbon, a spokesman for the Fire Department. By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from it for safety reasons." Engineers Suspect Diesel Fuel in Collapse of 7 World Trade Center - NYTimes.com

More info:

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200701/MacQueenWaitingforSeven.pdf

Foreknowledge of Building 7's Collapse : Dr. Graeme MacQueen - YouTube

https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/eyewitnessaccountsofthewithdrawalfromwtc

https://kendoc911.wordpress.com/wtc-7/wtc-7-fire-fighter-witnesses/

Yeah, like the demolition supporters have always said, the WTC 7 foreknowledge is extremely suspicious. It doesn't matter if it was always under the veil of "safety reasons". As for the firefighters witnessing a bulge, are we really supposed to believe that a relatively small bulge in the perimeter can rationally cause the collapse of a skyscraper as wide as a football field? Either way, it looks like these reports came long after the initial warnings were given. Also, there I have not seen any photographic evidence for the building "leaning". Even if a plausible natural collapse scenario was made, the official story is still in the toilet. The circumstances around WTC 7's collapse seems to be as deliberate and malicious as the airplane attacks.

What "further analysis" of what "two artifacts made of an iron-based material".

Click to expand...

http://www.ae911truth.net/ppt_web/slideshow.php?i=148&lores=1 see slide 154 to 161

Sorry to veer off-topic with non-Twin Tower physics related issues.

is making money off the ignorance of his followers.....

That IS the characteristic of scammers.

Click to expand...

You got it, dude. :2razz:

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

mike2810 said:

Shortly after AE911T announced the mailing of the book I looked for BM. It was not free at that time. Care to provide the link.

" It contributes to an organization rightfully calling for an investigation that should've been done years ago"

. Yes, it is AE911T right to ask for a new investigation.
I have do disagree with part of your statement. An investigation was done regarding 9/11

Much like I disagreed on the tactics they used for the failed High Rise Safety Initiative.

If someone wants to contribute to AE911T that is a personal choice. If you expect taxpayers to pay for a new investigation, I would work to have such an idea rejected.

Click to expand...

Beyond Misinformation for free: https://www.scribd.com/doc/280021915/Beyond-Misinformation-2015

http://cafr1.com/Beyond-Misinformation-2015.pdf

Anybody who disagrees with the need for a new investigation is uninformed or delusional. Source: NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Fledermaus said:

Interesting... You are mouthing truther talking points and little more. But you think you are a skeptic.

And you cannot define what you think a new investigation would find.

Click to expand...

Do you think you are a skeptic? You seem to be totally fine with accepting the psychic abilities needed to predict the collapse of Building 7.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

Do you think you are a skeptic? You seem to be totally fine with accepting the psychic abilities needed to predict the collapse of Building 7.

Click to expand...

I tend to think of Fledermaus more along the lines of a peptic. If one were to actually take what he/she says seriously they would get an ulcer. There is no chance anyone could have predicted the confluence of events NIST needs for their story on WTC 7 to happen. It is a virtual impossibility to simultaneously believe the NIST report is accurate and that a natural collapse of WTC 7 could have been predicted hours before. It sounds like Fledermaus is trying to do it though, in true peptic style.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

"We had a discussion with one particular engineer there, and we asked him, if we allowed it to burn, could we anticipate a collapse, and if so, how soon? And it turned out that he was pretty much right on the money then. He said, 'In its current state you have about five hours.'" -Chief Peter Hayden, BBC The Conspiracy Files: The Third Tower

"We posed to him the question that considering the structural damage that was obvious to the – to the building on the southwest corner, and the amount of fire damage that was occurring within the building, could we anticipate a collapse and if so, when. He said yes and he gave an approximate time of five to six hours, which was pretty much right on the money because the building collapsed about 5 o’clock that afternoon." -Chief Peter Hayden, Aegis Insurance Services, Inc. v. 7 World Trade Center Company, L.P.[

"Someone from the Office of Emergency Management told us that this building was in serious danger of collapse. The consensus was that it was basically a lost cause and we should no lose anyone else trying to save it. Rich, a few other people and I went inside to the stairwells and started yelling up "Drop everything and get out!" It didn't collapse until much later in the afternoon, but we felt it was better to get everybody out." source: September 11: An Oral History by Dean Murphy


The earliest report of WTC 7 foreknowledge comes from Francis X. Gribbon, who I guess was not actually there, but he was/is a "spokesman" for the NYFD: "Falling debris also caused major structural damage to the building, which soon began burning on multiple floors, said Francis X. Gribbon, a spokesman for the Fire Department. By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from it for safety reasons."

More info:

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200701/MacQueenWaitingforSeven.pdf

Foreknowledge of Building 7's Collapse : Dr. Graeme MacQueen - YouTube

https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/eyewitnessaccountsofthewithdrawalfromwtc

https://kendoc911.wordpress.com/wtc-7/wtc-7-fire-fighter-witnesses/

Yeah, like the demolition supporters have always said, the WTC 7 foreknowledge is extremely suspicious. It doesn't matter if it was always under the veil of "safety reasons". As for the firefighters witnessing a bulge, are we really supposed to believe that a relatively small bulge in the perimeter can rationally cause the collapse of a skyscraper as wide as a football field? Either way, it looks like these reports came long after the initial warnings were given. Also, there I have not seen any photographic evidence for the building "leaning". Even if a plausible natural collapse scenario was made, the official story is still in the toilet. The circumstances around WTC 7's collapse seems to be as deliberate and malicious as the airplane attacks.

AE911Truth Slide Show Presentation see slide 154 to 161

Sorry to veer off-topic with non-Twin Tower physics related issues.

You got it, dude. :2razz:

Click to expand...

Oh, look... A supposed skeptic getting their information from truther websites... Say it ain't so.

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden
Division 1 - 33 years

...also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

We... The firefighters.

The FIREFIGHTERS suspected it would collapse. A suspicion that was born out later.

And they consulted an engineer who in turn gave the same prediction.

So an engineer and the firefighters both suspected it would fail earlier in the day. And guess what... They were right. And the decisions they made to pull the firefighters away from around WTC7 was a safety measure.

Oh, and the bulge did not "cause" anything. The bulge signaled structural instability. Structural instability. Let that sink in. Think about it before responding. Around one or two the firefighters AND an engineers BOTH believed the structure may fail. HOURS before the final collapse. HOURS.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

Do you think you are a skeptic? You seem to be totally fine with accepting the psychic abilities needed to predict the collapse of Building 7.

Click to expand...

No psychic abilities needed.... Just an understanding if fire and it's effect on steel framed buildings... Just like the engineer and firefighters would have.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

Beyond Misinformation for free: https://www.scribd.com/doc/280021915/Beyond-Misinformation-2015

http://cafr1.com/Beyond-Misinformation-2015.pdf

Anybody who disagrees with the need for a new investigation is uninformed or delusional. Source: NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations

Click to expand...

AE911(un)Truth is still SELLING THEM.....

Beyond Misinformation Booklet

Beyond Misinformation Book
AE911Truth’s guide to the WTC evidence in a durable paperback format.
$19.95

Tell us... What do you want investigated? Since the previous investigations showed the who, what, why and how. You just refuse to understand that.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Tony Szamboti said:

I tend to think of Fledermaus more along the lines of a peptic. If one were to actually take what he/she says seriously they would get an ulcer. There is no chance anyone could have predicted the confluence of events NIST needs to have happen for their story on WTC 7 to happen. It is a virtual impossibility to believe the NIST report is accurate and that a natural collapse of WTC 7 could have been predicted hours before. It sounds like Fledermaus is trying to do it though in true peptic style.

Click to expand...

Tony...

Come up with an intelligent theory for CD?

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

I still am not 100% convinced of anything,...

Click to expand...

BS. You clearly stated your conclusion, and continued below,...

MicahJava said:

Do you think you are a skeptic? You seem to be totally fine with accepting the psychic abilities needed to predict the collapse of Building 7.

Click to expand...

What psychic abilities are required for people who are work in and around damaged and structurally compromised buildings for a living to determine a building is damaged and structurally compromised?

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Fledermaus said:

Tony...

Come up with an intelligent theory for CD?

Click to expand...

I have. Eight stories of the core were removed in WTC 7 and that caused the 8 story symmetric free fall. The charges were probably installed when Rudy Giuliani's OEM headquarters/bunker was built on the 23rd floor. His insistence on having a separate agency and placing it in WTC 7 on the 23rd floor was very likely the cover used to set the charges.

Emergency Management in NYC had for years been an auxiliary duty of the police department.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Fledermaus said:

Oh, look... A supposed skeptic getting their information from truther websites... Say it ain't so.

Click to expand...

If you could read, you could realize that Dr. McQueen just cites the oral histories of the first repsonders available on the New York times website. I also linked to Mark Robert's website.

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden
Division 1 - 33 years

...also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

We... The firefighters.

The FIREFIGHTERS suspected it would collapse. A suspicion that was born out later.

And they consulted an engineer who in turn gave the same prediction.

So an engineer and the firefighters both suspected it would fail earlier in the day. And guess what... They were right. And the decisions they made to pull the firefighters away from around WTC7 was a safety measure.

Click to expand...

Firefighters are not qualified to predict the unprecedented collapse of a skyscraper. Engineers are more qualified, and would be less likely to have their perspective warped by the Twin Tower collapses and the dead first responders. Reading closely it would seem that the mysterious "engineer" and whoever from Giuliani's OEM used their authority to mislead the firefighters into believing a collapse from structural failure was inevitable. The Twins just collapsed, tons of fellow firefighters just died, and now there's this other bug building with a hole in it and it's on fire. If an engineer shows up and tells you it's in danger of collapse, you bet you'd pull back. Some more objectively thinking first responders thought that this prediction was so strange that they actually thought that a controlled demolition might have actually been planned for safety purposes. Then, the building collapsed and they're telling you it was from fire and structural damage. A completely strange and suspicious event must now be rationalized into a normal event in your mind.

Oh, and the bulge did not "cause" anything. The bulge signaled structural instability. Structural instability. Let that sink in. Think about it before responding. Around one or two the firefighters AND an engineers BOTH believed the structure may fail. HOURS before the final collapse. HOURS.

Click to expand...

Oooor such a bulge would just signify that a tiny insignificant part of the steel perimeter is getting softer. This bulge seems to have been reported some time after the "engineer" made his psychic prediction. If you try to make a basic timeline of the WTC 7 foreknowledge grapevine, it all appears to come back to the engineer and the office of emergency management. I wonder if it was the same person who warned Rudy that the South Tower was about to collapse, which he casually mentioned on live television.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Mark F said:

BS. You clearly stated your conclusion, and continued below,...



What psychic abilities are required for people who are work in and around damaged and structurally compromised buildings for a living to determine a building is damaged and structurally compromised?

Click to expand...

Name some steel-framed skyscrapers in New York that had appeared structurally unsound when it had fires? Obviously, none collapsed, but name any that had firefighters or anybody concerned about their structural integrity from fire damage? Last I heard, firefighters have and do feel comfortable running into tall buildings to fight fires.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

Name some steel-framed skyscrapers in New York that had appeared structurally unsound when it had fires? Obviously, none collapsed, but name any that had firefighters or anybody concerned about their structural integrity from fire damage? Last I heard, firefighters have and do feel comfortable running into tall buildings to fight fires.

Click to expand...

No. Just no.

Thank you for illustrating why I stopped debating CT's. I can't go through pointlessly addressing so many layers of deliberate dishonesty anymore. Time to jump back on the wagon.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

Mark F said:

No. Just no.

Thank you for illustrating why I stopped debating CT's. I can't go through pointlessly addressing so many layers of deliberate dishonesty anymore. Time to jump back on the wagon.

Click to expand...

Saying that the firefighters alone predicted Building 7's collapse with such precision is the deliberate dishonesty. By the way, I think you're technically still debating CT's.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

Beyond Misinformation for free: https://www.scribd.com/doc/280021915/Beyond-Misinformation-2015

http://cafr1.com/Beyond-Misinformation-2015.pdf

Anybody who disagrees with the need for a new investigation is uninformed or delusional. Source: NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations

Click to expand...

Do you always debate by throwing jabs at those who disagree with you? Is your career in fire?

You should really familiarize yourself with NPFA, its guide for investigation and the investigation material. If you had you would know how the investigation used NPFA guidelines.

Do you believe NFPA is federal code? State code? Local code?
Do you believe NFPA is mandatory for the federal govt to follow?

The basic methodology identified in part 921 was utilized by investigators of the wtc collapse.

Your posts dealing with the investigation and NFPA has very little to do with the OP topic. I won't respond further regarding NFPA here. It is not the correct thread.

Do you know who is behind the OP linked web site?

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

If you could read, you could realize that Dr. McQueen just cites the oral histories of the first repsonders available on the New York times website. I also linked to Mark Robert's website.

Click to expand...

Does not explain your other sources.

MicahJava said:

Firefighters are not qualified to predict the unprecedented collapse of a skyscraper. Engineers are more qualified, and would be less likely to have their perspective warped by the Twin Tower collapses and the dead first responders. Reading closely it would seem that the mysterious "engineer" and whoever from Giuliani's OEM used their authority to mislead the firefighters into believing a collapse from structural failure was inevitable. The Twins just collapsed, tons of fellow firefighters just died, and now there's this other bug building with a hole in it and it's on fire. If an engineer shows up and tells you it's in danger of collapse, you bet you'd pull back. Some more objectively thinking first responders thought that this prediction was so strange that they actually thought that a controlled demolition might have actually been planned for safety purposes. Then, the building collapsed and they're telling you it was from fire and structural damage. A completely strange and suspicious event must now be rationalized into a normal event in your mind.

Click to expand...

OMFG... Now firefighters are unqualified to determine if a building is in peril during a fire.

THAT IS WHAT THEY DO... THEY ASSESS THE FIRE AND THE DAMAGE DONE TO DETERMINE IF IT IS SAFE TO CONTINUE FIGHTING THE FIRES.

THEY PERFORMED THE MEASUREMENTS... NOT THE ENGINEER.

What is known is that they, and the engineer, were right.

And they understood that very day what you appear incapable of understanding 13 years later.

MicahJava said:

Oooor such a bulge would just signify that a tiny insignificant part of the steel perimeter is getting softer. This bulge seems to have been reported some time after the "engineer" made his psychic prediction. If you try to make a basic timeline of the WTC 7 foreknowledge grapevine, it all appears to come back to the engineer and the office of emergency management. I wonder if it was the same person who warned Rudy that the South Tower was about to collapse, which he casually mentioned on live television.

Click to expand...

Or you have no clue what it meant and the firefighters did.

Again... No psychic ability required. So you can quit that nonsense.

The only "foreknowledge" is intelligent people making educated predictions based on known data.

Re: Bazant Misconduct website is launched

MicahJava said:

Saying that the firefighters alone predicted Building 7's collapse with such precision is the deliberate dishonesty. By the way, I think you're technically still debating CT's.

Click to expand...

Who said that?