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baseline budgeting - why should we abandon it?

justabubba

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in another thread, this was posted [color edited to address the topic of this thread]:
You're also short on details. You come off as liking him because you're desperate and want to have your own personal status back again. Which I get.


In the interest of full honesty, as much as I detest the man and his candidacy, there are issues that even I agree with him. He says he wants to eliminate baseline budgeting, for example. *I* want to eliminate baseline budgeting. Might seem like a step toward The Donald, right? Even if he could eliminate baseline budgeting, would that alone be worth alienating our staunchest allies? The domino effect from that would be huge. No, it wouldn't be worth it.

my recollection is, carley fiorina was the first candidate to publicly object to baseline budgeting
many have echoed her objection
but i have seen no explanation why baseline budgeting is a government practice that needs to be ended
and neither have i seen anyone identify what budgeting method should replace baseline budgeting ... assuming that we all recognize that good government does necessitate a budgeting system

so, if you oppose baseline budgeting, share with us why it is a practice to be abandoned
and please also tell us what budgeting system should be used to replace it ... and why
 

OrphanSlug

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Perhaps a good first step is defining what "baseline budgeting" means in terms of Federal Budget planning. What do you think that means?
 

reinoe

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in another thread, this was posted [color edited to address the topic of this thread]:


my recollection is, carley fiorina was the first candidate to publicly object to baseline budgeting
many have echoed her objection
but i have seen no explanation why baseline budgeting is a government practice that needs to be ended
and neither have i seen anyone identify what budgeting method should replace baseline budgeting ... assuming that we all recognize that good government does necessitate a budgeting system

so, if you oppose baseline budgeting, share with us why it is a practice to be abandoned
and please also tell us what budgeting system should be used to replace it ... and why

Baseline Budgeting | Citizens Against Government Waste
 

Fearandloathing

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i missed the portion of your post where you identified the accounting system that would replace baseline budgeting ... and why that alternative system would prove to be superior



Have you never heard of Progressive Accounting? That's where you budget based on needs and personal comfort, and if the money runs out, get moire from the government. It was invented by Chrysler. And it only works on a large scale, the way the securities companies did it, in the Trillions.
 

longview

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I will try one an analogy,
A guy, gets out of college, and is a good employee.
For the first 3 years of his employment, he gets a 10% raise every year.
During year 3, he buys a home which is more than he can afford, but with a 10% raise coming,
he should be fine!
To his surprise, in year 4, he only gets a 2% raise,
but claims his budget got cut by 8%.
Now his pay was not cut, it just did not increase as fast as he expected.
 

justabubba

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I will try one an analogy,
A guy, gets out of college, and is a good employee.
For the first 3 years of his employment, he gets a 10% raise every year.
During year 3, he buys a home which is more than he can afford, but with a 10% raise coming,
he should be fine!
To his surprise, in year 4, he only gets a 2% raise,
but claims his budget got cut by 8%.
Now his pay was not cut, it just did not increase as fast as he expected.

and as i have asked others, what alternative budgetary system does the government use instead ... and why is that system found to be superior
 

longview

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and as i have asked others, what alternative budgetary system does the government use instead ... and why is that system found to be superior
I think the government should treat the peoples money as carefully as they would treat their own.
Limit the Government operations to only that which is chartered in the constitution,
and function within their means.
 

reinoe

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i missed the portion of your post where you identified the accounting system that would replace baseline budgeting ... and why that alternative system would prove to be superior

Why don't you allow common sense to take over. Project the budget based on needs. If more is needed then allocate more. If less is needed for god sake spend less. Near the end of each budgetary period you have unnecessary military expendentures to make sure that they don't face budget cuts to the next period. I think it's ironic that we decried this very same spending policy that bankrupted the soviet union and then proceed to do the same damn thing.
 

SocialD

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in another thread, this was posted [color edited to address the topic of this thread]:


my recollection is, carley fiorina was the first candidate to publicly object to baseline budgeting
many have echoed her objection
but i have seen no explanation why baseline budgeting is a government practice that needs to be ended
and neither have i seen anyone identify what budgeting method should replace baseline budgeting ... assuming that we all recognize that good government does necessitate a budgeting system

so, if you oppose baseline budgeting, share with us why it is a practice to be abandoned
and please also tell us what budgeting system should be used to replace it ... and why

Fiorina suggested zero-based budgeting be used instead of baseline budgeting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseline_(budgeting)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_budgeting

The reason why is fairly well summed up near the top of the zero-based budgeting page. so I will mention that.
" In traditional incremental budgeting, departmental managers justify only variances versus past years based on the assumption that the "baseline" is automatically approved. By contrast, in zero-based budgeting, every line item of the budget, rather than only the changes, must be approved."

baseline budgeting assumes automatically that they will spend what they did last year + interest + inflation. They only have to get approproval ( via an appropriations/spending bill) to spend more than that. I think it is governments duty to the people they represent to be more responsible with the peoples money than that. they should justify all of what they spend instead of making assumptions. Its the easy way to just assume you are going to be able to spend as much or more than you did last year. but its not the right way.
 

justabubba

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I think the government should treat the peoples money as carefully as they would treat their own.
Limit the Government operations to only that which is chartered in the constitution,
and function within their means.

you quoted me, and the question i asked about an alternative system to baseline budgeting; however, you offered no alternative budgeting system to replace the presently used baseline system
 

justabubba

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Why don't you allow common sense to take over. Project the budget based on needs. If more is needed then allocate more. If less is needed for god sake spend less. Near the end of each budgetary period you have unnecessary military expendentures to make sure that they don't face budget cuts to the next period. I think it's ironic that we decried this very same spending policy that bankrupted the soviet union and then proceed to do the same damn thing.

and how would your 'common sense' budgeting system work. share with us how it would be implemented throughout government
 

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Flip this around, why continue with baseline budgeting? What is the actual realized benefit?
 

mmi

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baseline budgeting assumes automatically that they will spend what they did last year + interest + inflation.

Interest? I don't understand.

>>they should justify all of what they spend instead of making assumptions.

First, let me note that the hero of the Right, JEC, brought ZBB to the federal gubmint after using it as the chief executive in the state of Georgia. It was immediately dropped by RWR, perhaps because it had that liberal Democratic stench on it.

Imo, ZBB can be effective, and it's important to recognize and distinguish programmatic environments in which it's more likely to be useful. Anytime yer seeing a lot of change, either in the area of society an agency deals with, in the tools available to get that work done, or in the amount of money being expended (up or down), a careful examination of "just what heck is it we're trying to accomplish" is gonna be a good idea.

ZBB can create problems if it's not employed properly. It can lead to very destructive in-fighting. It can seriously delay and complicate the budgeting process. And it can be expensive. There typically isn't much money spent on putting together a budget, and staff time can be very limited, so those resources must be marshaled carefully.

More than anything, I'd say, the people involved need to buy into the process. Yer trying to make important decisions, often under difficult circumstances with limited information. The old "changing a tire on a moving car" problem.

My answer to the question of which system works best is that it depends on a number of factors. Effective use of ZBB requires the proper circumstances, sophisticated judgements, and a high level of institutional flexibility.
 

longview

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you quoted me, and the question i asked about an alternative system to baseline budgeting; however, you offered no alternative budgeting system to replace the presently used baseline system
Sorry, I think the government should only allow growth, when that growth can be justified,
not automated built in growth.
 

justabubba

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Interest? I don't understand.

>>they should justify all of what they spend instead of making assumptions.

First, let me note that the hero of the Right, JEC, brought ZBB to the federal gubmint after using it as the chief executive in the state of Georgia. It was immediately dropped by RWR, perhaps because it had that liberal Democratic stench on it.


Imo, ZBB can be effective, and it's important to recognize and distinguish programmatic environments in which it's more likely to be useful. Anytime yer seeing a lot of change, either in the area of society an agency deals with, in the tools available to get that work done, or in the amount of money being expended (up or down), a careful examination of "just what heck is it we're trying to accomplish" is gonna be a good idea.

ZBB can create problems if it's not employed properly. It can lead to very destructive in-fighting. It can seriously delay and complicate the budgeting process. And it can be expensive. There typically isn't much money spent on putting together a budget, and staff time can be very limited, so those resources must be marshaled carefully.

More than anything, I'd say, the people involved need to buy into the process. Yer trying to make important decisions, often under difficult circumstances with limited information. The old "changing a tire on a moving car" problem.

My answer to the question of which system works best is that it depends on a number of factors. Effective use of ZBB requires the proper circumstances, sophisticated judgements, and a high level of institutional flexibility.

that was a GREAT post
from that which i have hi-lited alone, i would not be surprised if you were in a federal government leadership position during the Carter-reagan transition to have observed that by-product of ZBB's implementation
 

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Interest? I don't understand.

>>they should justify all of what they spend instead of making assumptions.

First, let me note that the hero of the Right, JEC, brought ZBB to the federal gubmint after using it as the chief executive in the state of Georgia. It was immediately dropped by RWR, perhaps because it had that liberal Democratic stench on it.

Imo, ZBB can be effective, and it's important to recognize and distinguish programmatic environments in which it's more likely to be useful. Anytime yer seeing a lot of change, either in the area of society an agency deals with, in the tools available to get that work done, or in the amount of money being expended (up or down), a careful examination of "just what heck is it we're trying to accomplish" is gonna be a good idea.

ZBB can create problems if it's not employed properly. It can lead to very destructive in-fighting. It can seriously delay and complicate the budgeting process. And it can be expensive. There typically isn't much money spent on putting together a budget, and staff time can be very limited, so those resources must be marshaled carefully.

More than anything, I'd say, the people involved need to buy into the process. Yer trying to make important decisions, often under difficult circumstances with limited information. The old "changing a tire on a moving car" problem.

My answer to the question of which system works best is that it depends on a number of factors. Effective use of ZBB requires the proper circumstances, sophisticated judgements, and a high level of institutional flexibility.

king of acronyms ;P. Yes it isn't an easy change and yes sophisticated judgements. I think would be have a lot more clarity to make those judgements if they weren't made by lobbyist marionettes yea?
 

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Interest? I don't understand.

>>they should justify all of what they spend instead of making assumptions.

First, let me note that the hero of the Right, JEC, brought ZBB to the federal gubmint after using it as the chief executive in the state of Georgia. It was immediately dropped by RWR, perhaps because it had that liberal Democratic stench on it.

Imo, ZBB can be effective, and it's important to recognize and distinguish programmatic environments in which it's more likely to be useful. Anytime yer seeing a lot of change, either in the area of society an agency deals with, in the tools available to get that work done, or in the amount of money being expended (up or down), a careful examination of "just what heck is it we're trying to accomplish" is gonna be a good idea.

ZBB can create problems if it's not employed properly. It can lead to very destructive in-fighting. It can seriously delay and complicate the budgeting process. And it can be expensive. There typically isn't much money spent on putting together a budget, and staff time can be very limited, so those resources must be marshaled carefully.

More than anything, I'd say, the people involved need to buy into the process. Yer trying to make important decisions, often under difficult circumstances with limited information. The old "changing a tire on a moving car" problem.

My answer to the question of which system works best is that it depends on a number of factors. Effective use of ZBB requires the proper circumstances, sophisticated judgements, and a high level of institutional flexibility.


+1

Line-item budgeting approval is tedious. In my little town of 6,000 and an annual budget of less than $2M (in which the police department uses up more than half), our budget book is about 6 inches thick for the 36 various departments.

I can't imagine how many man-hours would be required to line-itemize, say, the FBI's budget.
 

mmi

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i would not be surprised if you were in a federal government leadership position

Oh no, they would never let me get my hands on things.

I spent the first five or ten of the last seventeen years that I've worked for Uncle Sam patiently and politely suggesting how the programs I've been involved with could perhaps be administered more effectively/efficiently. I can only remember one idea that was accepted. I paid for it out of my own pocket and then billed the agency for a few months to cover the cost. Rejected every time. Finally, perhaps when they simply got tired of my requests for compensation, but more likely when someone with enough common sense to comprehend the value involved took action, I got the money. A few months later, I was presented with an award for my idea. I graciously accepted and kept my mouth shut. The members of my team tried not to laugh.

king of acronyms

To an extent. I have a friend who for many years has had a practice of simply looking at me or saying "Eric" if we're in a room together and he hears an acronym he's unfamiliar with. I can often at least guess at parts of it even if I don't know it. In my work as a copyeditor, I was known as the Hyphen King.
 

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reinoe

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I think you need to stop being obtuse. What does the government need to spend vs what is the budget to spend. It's not hard and I think you should take a step back and breathe a little.

Military Begs Congress To Stop Buying Equipment It Doesn't Need.

We need 3 Abrams tanks. Don't spend money on 50 Abrams tanks. You may have heard about all the equipment that got left behind when the U.S. left Iraq. Our military didn't care that it got left because so much of it was unnecessary.
 

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It should spend it all on beer?

Still helps the economy, right? ;)

There is stupid spending and smart spending. An automatic increase in defense budget or any agency budget is down right wasteful spending. If something needs to be means tested, it's agencies spending and it's benefit to society.
 

austrianecon

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+1

Line-item budgeting approval is tedious. In my little town of 6,000 and an annual budget of less than $2M (in which the police department uses up more than half), our budget book is about 6 inches thick for the 36 various departments.

I can't imagine how many man-hours would be required to line-itemize, say, the FBI's budget.

Well shouldn't the FBI, CIA, NSA and DoD be line itemized since it's these agencies that tend to break the law/ skirt the law to do illegal things? Such as FBI paying $1m to a hacker to break into an Iphone then FBI breaking the law by not sharing how it was broken into.
 
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