Barghouti: Mandela gave Palestinians hope for freedom

[ilan22]

And as long as Israel violates UN international law by expanding settlements and denying the right to return...

well we conqerd that area in a fair war

 

[TheDemSocialist]

well we conqerd that area in a fair war

Yes how very noble of you.. Very very gracious of you conquering a people...

 

[VanceMack]

It kind of is, the Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israelis but still must live under their government although their government does have certain freedoms and a degree of independence but there's no denying that it exists simply because Israel allows it to exist and if Israel disagrees with what it does it simply ignores it. Take for example the de facto annexation of the West Bank, which Israel has allowed its citizens to settle in and determines which areas are under the authority of the Israeli government or the PA. Palestinians also have no right to vote in Israeli elections, unless of course they happen to be an Israeli citizen, but must live under the rule and authority of the Israeli government either directly or indirectly. They also have no right of travel and right to work in parts of Israel without special permission, they are in many ways second class citizens.

So I'm saying the themes are similar but some of the details, like the Palestinian Authority, is different.

The Palestinians are sort of like the American Indians. Assimilate, or live on a reservation as a conquered people. Its a ****ty choice, but its a choice.

 

[ilan22]

Yes how very noble of you.. Very very gracious of you conquering a people...

oh sorry
i forgot how gracious
from 8 arab countries to attack a single 2 million people country
and call for a second holocaust of the jews in the radio

the palestinians in the west bank live now a life that is 10X better than in syria jordan in egypt

 

[TheDemSocialist]

oh sorry
i forgot how gracious
from 8 arab countries to attack a single 2 million people country
and call for a second holocaust of the jews in the radio

the palestinians in the west bank live now a life that is 10X better than in syria jordan in egypt

Yes of course. Its all the Palestinians fault. Since Arab countries did x, y, and z in the past we should take their land, destroy their homes, set up checkpoints, build a wall, blockade Gaza, and surpress any protest that challenges this, and dont forget Israel can violate internatinoal law.

 

[ilan22]

Yes of course. Its all the Palestinians fault. Since Arab countries did x, y, and z in the past we should take their land, destroy their homes, set up checkpoints, build a wall, blockade Gaza, and surpress any protest that challenges this, and dont forget Israel can violate internatinoal law.

usa didnt violate international law?
russia dont?

all the countries that can violate do that

and it was not in the past
and if you will see before 1967 we had alot of wars
after 1967 we had 1 big war
and the rest were just israel vs terror organization and not countries

 

[TheDemSocialist]

usa didnt violate international law?
russia dont?

Did i ever say that?

all the countries that can violate do that

Bulldoze homes, deny the right to return, set up military checkpoints, occupy a people?

and it was not in the past
and if you will see before 1967 we had alot of wars
after 1967 we had 1 big war
and the rest were just israel vs terror organization and not countries

This justifies the current situtaion how?

 

[ilan22]

Did i ever say that?


Bulldoze homes, deny the right to return, set up military checkpoints, occupy a people?


This justifies the current situtaion how?

current situation we own west bank
and we will give it back only for peace

it worked with the egyptian(who are the strongest arab country in the world)
its our best chance with the palestinians
so we wont give that away for free

 

[TheDemSocialist]

current situation we own west bank
and we will give it back only for peace

Show some real good intentions for "peace" with continuing to expand settlements..

 

[ilan22]

Show some real good intentions for "peace" with continuing to expand settlements..

its pressure
if the palestinians signed in 1980 a peace treaty then they could have the entire west bank
if they will sgin now sirael will remove the small settlmetns
if they will sign in 50 more years i dont know what will happen

 

[TheDemSocialist]

its pressure
if the palestinians signed in 1980 a peace treaty then they could have the entire west bank
if they will sgin now sirael will remove the small settlmetns
if they will sign in 50 more years i dont know what will happen

They were never intended to be a part of those talks.

 

[ilan22]

They were never intended to be a part of those talks.

then with who israel signed on oslo in 1993?
back then there was less than 100,000 settlers
now there are almost half million

and rational people would have sign that deal

 

[Hyena]

Yes how very noble of you.. Very very gracious of you conquering a people...

So... The Arabs can do whatever they want and any consequences are Israel's faults?

 

[Wiseone]

The Palestinians are sort of like the American Indians. Assimilate, or live on a reservation as a conquered people. Its a ****ty choice, but its a choice.

The problem with that is that Israel is not interested in truly assimilating the Palestinian people, the issue being that Israel wants to preserve its identity as a "Jewish State." I understand that, I don't argue against it considering the history, but you can't make citizens out of millions of Palestinians who statistically will have many more children that average Jewish families because very soon you'll find Jews in the minority.

What Israel should do is work to release Palestine, including the West Bank and Gaza strip as a truly independent country. The problem there is issues of land, not just the homes and former lands of Palestinians driven off what is now Israel proper but Israeli settlements and citizens moving into the West Bank, and formally Gaza. These settlements are slowly driving out the native population through economic and police means and basically resulting in the slow annexation of the West Bank.

If Israel truly wants peace it needs to remove its citizens from the West Bank, destroy the settlements, let Palestine become an independent country and most importantly support it economically. That would mean allowing the more or less free travel of Palestinians to Israel to work, since the economic situation in Palestine is such that it cannot employ everyone looking for labor and unemployment will drive people towards extremist groups who promise an answer to the problem or at least some purpose for men lacking direction.

 

[VanceMack]

The problem with that is that Israel is not interested in truly assimilating the Palestinian people, the issue being that Israel wants to preserve its identity as a "Jewish State." I understand that, I don't argue against it considering the history, but you can't make citizens out of millions of Palestinians who statistically will have many more children that average Jewish families because very soon you'll find Jews in the minority.

What Israel should do is work to release Palestine, including the West Bank and Gaza strip as a truly independent country. The problem there is issues of land, not just the homes and former lands of Palestinians driven off what is now Israel proper but Israeli settlements and citizens moving into the West Bank, and formally Gaza. These settlements are slowly driving out the native population through economic and police means and basically resulting in the slow annexation of the West Bank.

If Israel truly wants peace it needs to remove its citizens from the West Bank, destroy the settlements, let Palestine become an independent country and most importantly support it economically. That would mean allowing the more or less free travel of Palestinians to Israel to work, since the economic situation in Palestine is such that it cannot employ everyone looking for labor and unemployment will drive people towards extremist groups who promise an answer to the problem or at least some purpose for men lacking direction.

Look back throughout the 60 year history of modern day Israel and their association with Palestinians. Perhaps there is a very understandable reason WHY Israel is rather skeptical about assimilation and participation.

You and anyone else that believes anything Israel does would bring about peace have to be extraordinarily naive. Palestinians dont WANT peace and Im not saying I BLAME them. It is an intolerable situation for both sides. Cant imagine people really dont see that.

 

[Wiseone]

Look back throughout the 60 year history of modern day Israel and their association with Palestinians. Perhaps there is a very understandable reason WHY Israel is rather skeptical about assimilation and participation.

You and anyone else that believes anything Israel does would bring about peace have to be extraordinarily naive. Palestinians dont WANT peace and Im not saying I BLAME them. It is an intolerable situation for both sides. Cant imagine people really dont see that.

I didn't mean to imply what I said would mean peace, just that its necessary if peace is to be achieved. A step along the path.

 

[ilan22]

I didn't mean to imply what I said would mean peace, just that its necessary if peace is to be achieved. A step along the path.

well we dont want a chance for peace

we didnt gave egypt the sinai for a cahnce of peace in the future

we want the palestinians to stop fighting us from the inside

 

[VanceMack]

I didn't mean to imply what I said would mean peace, just that its necessary if peace is to be achieved. A step along the path.

The sad reality is that there will never be peace there or anywhere else in the ME. People dont have the will to win and maintain peace. Even if all Jews were eliminated and Israel were destroyed, there would be terrorist agencies trying to kill off other sects because they arent the right 'kind' of Muslim. If people were honest about the whole situation...maybe...MAYBE. If people had the will to stand against it...maybe...MAYBE. But not likely.

 

[ilan22]

The sad reality is that there will never be peace there or anywhere else in the ME. People dont have the will to win and maintain peace. Even if all Jews were eliminated and Israel were destroyed, there would be terrorist agencies trying to kill off other sects because they arent the right 'kind' of Muslim. If people were honest about the whole situation...maybe...MAYBE. If people had the will to stand against it...maybe...MAYBE. But not likely.

well we already have peace with egypt(who is the strongest and biggest arab country in the world)
and with jordan(who is pretty peacefull and have good communication with israel)

and its true what you said
the problem is not jews,arabs
its the islamic terror organization

when israel conquerd lands in 1948 all the arab druze and christians supported israel and joined the israeli military(even though they are arabs and speak arabic)against the muslim groups
in lebanon civil war muslim militants killed over 50,000 arab christians and took down the peacfull christian goverment and replaced them with the Hezbollah(who killed 240 americans soldiers and 40 french and british diplomats in the biggest terror attack in the middle east)1983 Beirut barracks bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


when the muslim militants will put down their guns then a peace in the middle east will happen

 

[ido_]

And Israeli's living in Palestine are not subject to Palestinian law but rather Israeli law.

First of all there is no country called Palestine, there is the PA who has autonomy in certain parts of the west bank. No Israeli is living in those areas

Here's an Israeli minister saying that Israel should annex these white areas fully, as opposed to how they are currently ruled by the military.

Israel minister: Annex West Bank settlements - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

For most Palestinians it wouldn't change the situation on the ground, these lands have already been annexed de facto.

Actually it would, he suggests to grant citizenship to all of the Palestinians who live in C area.

 

[Wiseone]

The sad reality is that there will never be peace there or anywhere else in the ME. People dont have the will to win and maintain peace. Even if all Jews were eliminated and Israel were destroyed, there would be terrorist agencies trying to kill off other sects because they arent the right 'kind' of Muslim. If people were honest about the whole situation...maybe...MAYBE. If people had the will to stand against it...maybe...MAYBE. But not likely.

Well certainly nothing will be solved if no one attempts to solve it. Also I really doubt that "will" is a problem for many people, I mean certainly terrorist groups have no lack of will just capability. And in what way has Israel lacked the "will" to win and maintain peace? They've completely outpaced every standing army in the region so much so that none could attack them now, its forced folks like the Palestinians to conduct only low level and fairly uneffective attacks. Not to say all Palestinians attack Israel but those who do don't stand a chance.

Its not about the "will" to win, no one lacks that will, its about the ability to achieve peace and Israel for example can destroy any army it faces but doesn't have the ability to stomp out every last insurgent activity of the various militant Palestinian groups, at least not militarily. And I don't think its a military solution anyway, counter insurgency is so much more than military power, again which Israel lacks none of, its about a lot more than that

 

[VanceMack]

Well certainly nothing will be solved if no one attempts to solve it. Also I really doubt that "will" is a problem for many people, I mean certainly terrorist groups have no lack of will just capability. And in what way has Israel lacked the "will" to win and maintain peace? They've completely outpaced every standing army in the region so much so that none could attack them now, its forced folks like the Palestinians to conduct only low level and fairly uneffective attacks. Not to say all Palestinians attack Israel but those who do don't stand a chance.

Its not about the "will" to win, no one lacks that will, its about the ability to achieve peace and Israel for example can destroy any army it faces but doesn't have the ability to stomp out every last insurgent activity of the various militant Palestinian groups, at least not militarily. And I don't think its a military solution anyway, counter insurgency is so much more than military power, again which Israel lacks none of, its about a lot more than that

I think you misunderstand the 'will' comment. You still see this as a bad Jew/poor sad unfortunate Palestinian type conflict. No...my point is that it is fundamentalist Islam that will ensure there will NEVER be peace and it is the Muslim community at large that lacks the 'will'. How many times have we heard it said...Oh no...its not ALL Muslims...the MAJORITY of Muslims are good, hard working, loving, caring, peaceful Muslims. True enough statement...but they ARE the problem. They sit back and allow the violent extremist fundamentalists to act. THEY are the ones that could bring about peace. If only they had the WILL to act.

 

[Wiseone]

I think you misunderstand the 'will' comment. You still see this as a bad Jew/poor sad unfortunate Palestinian type conflict. No...my point is that it is fundamentalist Islam that will ensure there will NEVER be peace and it is the Muslim community at large that lacks the 'will'. How many times have we heard it said...Oh no...its not ALL Muslims...the MAJORITY of Muslims are good, hard working, loving, caring, peaceful Muslims. True enough statement...but they ARE the problem. They sit back and allow the violent extremist fundamentalists to act. THEY are the ones that could bring about peace. If only they had the WILL to act.

I don't think its so simple, for one religious extremism exists in all religions and its not always tolerate either but its very nature makes it difficult to entirely destroy. Its not simply a question of killing the extremists.

Secondly often times these conflicts in the Middle East that take place between different Muslim groups are not really religious wars at all, although they may contain an element of religious difference. For example the IRA is a Catholic organization and while there is an element of religious differences in the conflict for Northern Ireland, the primarily issue is one of politics and land, not religion. Likewise in Yemen, where recently a number of people attending a wedding were killed in a US drone strike, there are three active rebel movements against the recognized government. These movements are again divided along religious lines but the issues are mostly secular, politics and land. So in other words these people are fighting not because they are Muslim, they just happen to be Muslims who are fighting.

Now these organizations are primarily focused on domestic issues, and these on going insurgencies weaken the power of the central government as well as create the kind of hardship and hopelessness where extremism can thrive. Additionally groups like Al-Qaeda naturally move to these kind of areas because recruitment is good and the powers that can act against them are occupied and generally weaker. If you were Yemen would you focus more on a group trying to destroy your government or on the one trying to destroy another country's government? Obviously domestic concerns and survival come first. Now to ask these people, who are extremely poor, very traditional, and very much occupied with day to day hardships like finding income or fighting their domestic enemies to also fight, bleed, and die, to remove a group which doesn't attack them but attacks some other country that is of no concern to them whatsoever, just so someone in the US can be satisfied that Islam as a whole is rooting out its problems? Not going to happen. Maybe that's what you mean by lack of will, but to expect them to have the will to me seems like a taller order than you think. Also keep in mind that in places like Syria AQ has actually reached out to local communities that have suffered from the conflict and given them material support, food, medicine, etc not only to recruit but again to make sure they stay friendly. Are you going to fight someone who's giving you bread to feed your family? Even if they have a domestic agenda which is extreme in nature its a lot to ask to starve your family to fight them.

Now Muslims in the US, yes I totally expect them to denounce any extremism coming out of their mosques just as I would expect any Christian to denounce extremism coming from their churches. But to ask people living day-to-day or already fighting another conflict to fight another war, against a group that may have better international backers than they do? I think that's unrealistic