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Barghouti: Mandela gave Palestinians hope for freedom

TheDemSocialist

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JERUSALEM (AFP) -- Nelson Mandela's struggle for freedom inspired Palestinians to believe that their own liberation was "possible," jailed Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouti said on Friday.

His remarks were made in an open letter to Mandela sent from Cell 28 of Hadarim prison in Israel, which was published by the Palestine Liberation Organization a day after the South African liberation leader's death.

"You said: 'We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.'

"And from within my prison cell, I tell you our freedom seems possible because you reached yours," he wrote.

"Apartheid did not prevail in South Africa, and apartheid shall not prevail in Palestine," he wrote.

Mandela, who first visited Israel and the Palestinian territories in 1999, was an ardent supporter of the Palestinian cause and a champion for Middle East peace.


Read more @:
Barghouti: Mandela gave Palestinians hope for freedom | Maan News Agency

He will be missed in the hearts of the Palestinian people. Just wish he got to see the Palestinian state to come to fruition. Was not only a great freedom fighter for South Africa but also for the Palestinian cause and many people who are struggling for freedom and justice around the world.
 

ecofarm

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I'm happy Palestinians are inspired by Mandela, it demonstrates his reach. This is a rare occasion when a terrorist news source is useful.

I cannot, however, consider the struggle of Palestinians (a known terrorist murderer, specifically) similar to what Mandela went through. Israel is not like Apartheid. That, really, is the claim of the article.
 
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ilan22

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he should have teach them to do a peace full talks and not invent terror groups like hamas and fatah that blow up busses and resturants inside israel
 

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he should have teach them to do a peace full talks and not invent terror groups like hamas and fatah that blow up busses and resturants inside israel
I agree, they've learned absolutely nothing from him.

Anyway:
"Apartheid did not prevail in South Africa, and apartheid shall not prevail in Palestine"

Something about Israeli "apartheid" from a South African politician:

 

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I'm happy Palestinians are inspired by Mandela, it demonstrates his reach. This is a rare occasion when a terrorist news source is useful.

I cannot, however, consider the struggle of Palestinians (a known terrorist murderer, specifically) similar to what Mandela went through. Israel is not like Apartheid. That, really, is the claim of the article.

It kind of is, the Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israelis but still must live under their government although their government does have certain freedoms and a degree of independence but there's no denying that it exists simply because Israel allows it to exist and if Israel disagrees with what it does it simply ignores it. Take for example the de facto annexation of the West Bank, which Israel has allowed its citizens to settle in and determines which areas are under the authority of the Israeli government or the PA. Palestinians also have no right to vote in Israeli elections, unless of course they happen to be an Israeli citizen, but must live under the rule and authority of the Israeli government either directly or indirectly. They also have no right of travel and right to work in parts of Israel without special permission, they are in many ways second class citizens.

So I'm saying the themes are similar but some of the details, like the Palestinian Authority, is different.
 

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It kind of is, the Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israelis but still must live under their government although their government does have certain freedoms and a degree of independence but there's no denying that it exists simply because Israel allows it to exist and if Israel disagrees with what it does it simply ignores it. Take for example the de facto annexation of the West Bank, which Israel has allowed its citizens to settle in and determines which areas are under the authority of the Israeli government or the PA. Palestinians also have no right to vote in Israeli elections, unless of course they happen to be an Israeli citizen, but must live under the rule and authority of the Israeli government either directly or indirectly. They also have no right of travel and right to work in parts of Israel without special permission, they are in many ways second class citizens.

So I'm saying the themes are similar but some of the details, like the Palestinian Authority, is different.

when you say second class civilians what do you mean?

there are the israeli native arabs that lived inside israel before 1967-who have full rights and full free movment in the country
aand there are the arabs that israel conquerd from jordan in 1967 and they started calling them palestinians-and they are not our civilians and israel dosent have anything in those lands
like they have their own goverment,with their own police and rules and they pay them taxes
so why would we allow them to move freely in our country(and i remind you that israel got less than 6 million jews,so letting 3 million palestinians(and that witout counting the 2 million israeli muslim arabs) will be very trouble..

the palestinians need their own small o****ry in the west bank and gaza strip and we both need to have peace...
 

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when you say second class civilians what do you mean?

there are the israeli native arabs that lived inside israel before 1967-who have full rights and full free movment in the country
aand there are the arabs that israel conquerd from jordan in 1967 and they started calling them palestinians-and they are not our civilians and israel dosent have anything in those lands
like they have their own goverment,with their own police and rules and they pay them taxes
so why would we allow them to move freely in our country(and i remind you that israel got less than 6 million jews,so letting 3 million palestinians(and that witout counting the 2 million israeli muslim arabs) will be very trouble..

the palestinians need their own small o****ry in the west bank and gaza strip and we both need to have peace...

I'm talking about those people, which you admit exist, have a vastly different set of rights and freedoms as other people. One of the biggest problems with Israeli is that it has trouble being both a Jewish and a Democratic state, its not Democratic because it governs millions of people who have no say in its government but to give them equal rights and freedoms would risk Israeli being a Jewish majority state.

Ideally Israel would be forward thinking enough to not place race and religion above equality, but I understand their concern with that and the reasons for Israel's existance as well as the massive amount of blood shed to keep it alive. It's in a very tricky place where it cannot achieve everything it wants to, again it cannot be both a democratic free country and a Jewish state. Personally I think Israel should remove its settlements from Palestinian territory and allow the PA to truly come on its own as an independant government.

Also you say that they have their own government but Israel formally recognizes no soverign Palestianian government.
 

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It kind of is, the Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israelis but still must live under their government although their government does have certain freedoms and a degree of independence but there's no denying that it exists simply because Israel allows it to exist and if Israel disagrees with what it does it simply ignores it. Take for example the de facto annexation of the West Bank, which Israel has allowed its citizens to settle in and determines which areas are under the authority of the Israeli government or the PA. Palestinians also have no right to vote in Israeli elections, unless of course they happen to be an Israeli citizen, but must live under the rule and authority of the Israeli government either directly or indirectly. They also have no right of travel and right to work in parts of Israel without special permission, they are in many ways second class citizens.

So I'm saying the themes are similar but some of the details, like the Palestinian Authority, is different.

You don't seem to know what apartheid even means yet you do not seem to have any problem addressing it towards Israel.
Ridiculous.
 

ilan22

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I'm talking about those people, which you admit exist, have a vastly different set of rights and freedoms as other people. One of the biggest problems with Israeli is that it has trouble being both a Jewish and a Democratic state, its not Democratic because it governs millions of people who have no say in its government but to give them equal rights and freedoms would risk Israeli being a Jewish majority state.

Ideally Israel would be forward thinking enough to not place race and religion above equality, but I understand their concern with that and the reasons for Israel's existance as well as the massive amount of blood shed to keep it alive. It's in a very tricky place where it cannot achieve everything it wants to, again it cannot be both a democratic free country and a Jewish state. Personally I think Israel should remove its settlements from Palestinian territory and allow the PA to truly come on its own as an independant government.

Also you say that they have their own government but Israel formally recognizes no soverign Palestianian government.

if the palestinians dosent have a goverment,to who they pay taxes?
who build their roads and electicity lines?

and more importanliy to who israel negotiate peace talks?

there are 2 "goverments"
1 is in the west bank that was chosed by the people and israel try to make peace with
the second is the hamas terror organization who took over by force the gaza strip and all the wars with the palestinians in the last 20 years were with them..


also we already removed one major israeli settler site that had 8,600 familys in
תוכנית ההתנתקות – ויקיפדיה

that was one of the most hard things that happend in israel in the past 65 years and i dont belive that israel will do the same with more 150,000 settlers or the goverment might fall
(we need to give the whole gaza strip and the parts where muslims live today to the palestinians and where jews live to israel and the christians will decide what they want)
 

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I'm talking about those people, which you admit exist, have a vastly different set of rights and freedoms as other people. One of the biggest problems with Israeli is that it has trouble being both a Jewish and a Democratic state, its not Democratic because it governs millions of people who have no say in its government but to give them equal rights and freedoms would risk Israeli being a Jewish majority state.

Ideally Israel would be forward thinking enough to not place race and religion above equality, but I understand their concern with that and the reasons for Israel's existance as well as the massive amount of blood shed to keep it alive. It's in a very tricky place where it cannot achieve everything it wants to, again it cannot be both a democratic free country and a Jewish state. Personally I think Israel should remove its settlements from Palestinian territory and allow the PA to truly come on its own as an independant government.

Also you say that they have their own government but Israel formally recognizes no soverign Palestianian government.

You are comparing military government with apartheid, thats ridiculous. It is like saying US, UK and France had an apartheid regime during the 40s because Germans were not allowed to vote while they controlled thier lives.
 

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-- Something about Israeli "apartheid" from a South African politician:


1:28 to 1:36 pretty much sums it all up. "People who are saying Israel is an Apartheid state are misleading and deliberately lying to the ignorant."

Doesn't get any clearer does it.
 

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You are comparing military government with apartheid, thats ridiculous. It is like saying US, UK and France had an apartheid regime during the 40s because Germans were not allowed to vote while they controlled thier lives.

I think you mean the Japanese, anyway I said it was similar not the same. There are key differences, but common themes as well.
 

ido_

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I think you mean the Japanese, anyway I said it was similar not the same. There are key differences, but common themes as well.

There are no common themes. Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews enjoy the same rights. Palestinians are not Israeli and they are not subject to the Israeli law.
 

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I think you mean the Japanese, anyway I said it was similar not the same. There are key differences, but common themes as well.

Your reasoning and explanation for your belief in the existence of those so called "common themes" between modern Israel and the South African apartheid regime were outright stupid.
Palestinians can't vote in the Israeli elections just like Iraqis can't vote in American elections. Hopefully you'll come to understand this supposedly unbelievable reality that citizens can only vote in the nations they are citizens of and that if they can't vote in nations they are not citizens of that doesn't make the governments of those nations share any themes with the apartheid regime.
 

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You cannot claim Apartheid and simultaneously claim that the Palestinian territories are occupied. You have to pick one, they are completely incompatible when taken together.
 

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There are no common themes. Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews enjoy the same rights. Palestinians are not Israeli and they are not subject to the Israeli law.

Yes they are subject to Israeli law.

‘Israel law applies to Palestinian who works for Israeli’ | JPost | Israel News

Palestinians working in the West Bank are subject to Israeli labor laws, not Palestinian laws, not Jordanian laws, Israeli laws.

And are you telling me that the hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens living in Palestine don't live under Israeli law? That's people living in Palestine living under the laws of Israel. To make a comparison that would like me going to Mexico, buying a house, but not being subject to Mexican but rather American laws.
 

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Your reasoning and explanation for your belief in the existence of those so called "common themes" between modern Israel and the South African apartheid regime were outright stupid.
Palestinians can't vote in the Israeli elections just like Iraqis can't vote in American elections. Hopefully you'll come to understand this supposedly unbelievable reality that citizens can only vote in the nations they are citizens of and that if they can't vote in nations they are not citizens of that doesn't make the governments of those nations share any themes with the apartheid regime.

Palestinian citizens, many of them anyway, live under Israeli law created by people they can't vote for. Iraqis don't live under American law and are not American citizens. I made that clear in my post, you ignored it, and you have to recognize the difference between not being to vote in a country who's laws you do not live under and not being able to vote in a country who's laws you do live under.
 

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Yes they are subject to Israeli law.

‘Israel law applies to Palestinian who works for Israeli’ | JPost | Israel News

Palestinians working in the West Bank are subject to Israeli labor laws, not Palestinian laws, not Jordanian laws, Israeli laws.

And are you telling me that the hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens living in Palestine don't live under Israeli law? That's people living in Palestine living under the laws of Israel. To make a comparison that would like me going to Mexico, buying a house, but not being subject to Mexican but rather American laws.

as long as the palestinians are not willing to sing a peace treaty with israel(that will be backed up by the arab world)
those lands are udner israeli control but the population not(i talk about the palestinians and not the israeli native arabs muslims)
because you understand that if we made them civilians
israel will be made of 6 million jews
and 6-7 million "israeli muslim arabs"
and than israel will be just another muslim arab country
the solution is a country for the palestinians to live in

Palestinian citizens, many of them anyway, live under Israeli law created by people they can't vote for. Iraqis don't live under American law and are not American citizens. I made that clear in my post, you ignored it, and you have to recognize the difference between not being to vote in a country who's laws you do not live under and not being able to vote in a country who's laws you do live under.

the native israeli arabs got vote right and make 12% of the israeli goverment

the palestinians who are under military control vote for their own govermnet,with thier own rules who pay them taxes
(and to that goverment israel negotiate peace talks)
 

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Yes they are subject to Israeli law.

‘Israel law applies to Palestinian who works for Israeli’ | JPost | Israel News

Palestinians working in the West Bank are subject to Israeli labor laws, not Palestinian laws, not Jordanian laws, Israeli laws.

And are you telling me that the hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens living in Palestine don't live under Israeli law? That's people living in Palestine living under the laws of Israel. To make a comparison that would like me going to Mexico, buying a house, but not being subject to Mexican but rather American laws.

I'm not sure how the story you brought here is relevant, a green card doesn't give you the right to vote in the US, same goes for Palestinians who work in Israel. Moreover you are saying Israel has apartheid themes because Israeli court ruled that Israeli employers should treat Palestinian according Israeli law (meaning giving all of the benefits Israeli citizens enjoy) and not treat them as foreign employees, how is that even making sense? Apartheid oppressed the black majority, it didn't defend their rights.
 

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I'm not sure how the story you brought here is relevant, a green card doesn't give you the right to vote in the US, same goes for Palestinians who work in Israel. Moreover you are saying Israel has apartheid themes because Israeli court ruled that Israeli employers should treat Palestinian according Israeli law (meaning giving all of the benefits Israeli citizens enjoy) and not treat them as foreign employees, how is that even making sense? Apartheid oppressed the black majority, it didn't defend their rights.

These are Palestinians working in the West Bank, ie Palestine, working for an Israeli company. If you're an American working overseas you are subject to the laws of your host country, as well as American laws in certain cases.

And my point was that Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens still live under Israeli law, without any access to participate in that government. Its a simple fact, and I just showed it to you.
 

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Yes they are subject to Israeli law.

‘Israel law applies to Palestinian who works for Israeli’ | JPost | Israel News

Palestinians working in the West Bank are subject to Israeli labor laws, not Palestinian laws, not Jordanian laws, Israeli laws.

And are you telling me that the hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens living in Palestine don't live under Israeli law? That's people living in Palestine living under the laws of Israel. To make a comparison that would like me going to Mexico, buying a house, but not being subject to Mexican but rather American laws.
And you couldn't vote in Mexico, but you're subject to their laws while there.
 

Wiseone

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And you couldn't vote in Mexico, but you're subject to their laws while there.

And Israeli's living in Palestine are not subject to Palestinian law but rather Israeli law. Palestinians living in certain parts of their own territory are not subject to the laws of their government but rather the Israeli government, and the land itself is not subject to Palestinian law either. Unless you want to argue that the Palestinian government just decide to let hundreds of thousands of Israelis settle in their country, give up up their sovereignty over that land, and ask nothing for it in return.

west_bank__gaza_map_2007_settlements_1912940.gif


Everything in green is controlled by the Palestinian government, so long as Israel doesn't have an issue with what they do, the white parts are ruled by Israeli law directly despite being inside Palestinian territory.

Here's an Israeli minister saying that Israel should annex these white areas fully, as opposed to how they are currently ruled by the military.

Israel minister: Annex West Bank settlements - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

For most Palestinians it wouldn't change the situation on the ground, these lands have already been annexed de facto.
 

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And Israeli's living in Palestine are not subject to Palestinian law but rather Israeli law. Palestinians living in certain parts of their own territory are not subject to the laws of their government but rather the Israeli government, and the land itself is not subject to Palestinian law either. Unless you want to argue that the Palestinian government just decide to let hundreds of thousands of Israelis settle in their country, give up up their sovereignty over that land, and ask nothing for it in return.

west_bank__gaza_map_2007_settlements_1912940.gif


Everything in green is controlled by the Palestinian government, so long as Israel doesn't have an issue with what they do, the white parts are ruled by Israeli law directly despite being inside Palestinian territory.

Here's an Israeli minister saying that Israel should annex these white areas fully, as opposed to how they are currently ruled by the military.

Israel minister: Annex West Bank settlements - Middle East - Al Jazeera English

For most Palestinians it wouldn't change the situation on the ground, these lands have already been annexed de facto.

as long as they dont signed a peace treaty(which will be backed up by the arab world)
the settlments will continue
because for now it our land
they want it?
sign a peace treaty and i garinty you that no settler will inter palestian
 

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as long as they dont signed a peace treaty(which will be backed up by the arab world)
the settlments will continue
because for now it our land
they want it?
sign a peace treaty and i garinty you that no settler will inter palestian

And as long as Israel violates UN international law by expanding settlements and denying the right to return...
 
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