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OldWorldOrder

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I think we have our answer. You didn't read the article referenced, either because of what it said, or because of who published the article. You immediately dismissed out-of-hand what the men said - they came out as a group, and these men spoke for that group, remember. And how many WWII or Korean War interrogators came out to dispute what they said? None.

Yes, I did, because you're acting as if a small group is the entirety of one.

Think on this, guy - if you're eighty-something or more years old, will you really give a damn about anyone's political agenda? Will you lie concerning something about which you've kept your silence for over half a century, concerning secrets you thought you'd take to your grave?

No, I don't think you would.

What makes you think this is political? Why do you keep coming back to that? I'm thinking it is political for you, otherwise why you keep talking about it?

Most times, we should indeed take today's level of knowledge - such is normally the nature of progress. But when it comes to the human animal, emotionally and intellectually, we're still much the same as we were ten thousand years ago - and for this reason we should not be so quick to dismiss the wisdom passed down to us from our elders, particularly when it comes to matters of great moral import. They weren't always right, but they weren't always wrong, either.

How is wisdom from my elders when they were in their 20s when they had this information? What is it that makes you so sure that enhanced methods don't work sometimes when all else has failed?
 

Glen Contrarian

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Yes, I did, because you're acting as if a small group is the entirety of one.



What makes you think this is political? Why do you keep coming back to that? I'm thinking it is political for you, otherwise why you keep talking about it?



How is wisdom from my elders when they were in their 20s when they had this information? What is it that makes you so sure that enhanced methods don't work sometimes when all else has failed?

1. Read the doggone reference, willya, so you can stop wrongly thinking it was only one or two out of the group who spoke out against torture.

2. And even if your disagreement isn't political, that doesn't negate one whit of their experience.

3. Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded EIGHTY THREE TIMES, and KSM was waterboarded ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY THREE TIMES. So obviously it didn't work the first time, or the tenth time, or the fiftieth time...and on KSM, it didn't work on the hundredth or the hundred-and-fiftieth.

...whereas the willing testimony of men who were successful when it counted said their way did work. So your way didn't work after scores and scores of times. No thank you, I'll take their word - and George Washington's wisdom - over yours.
 

Mycroft

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1. Read the doggone reference, willya, so you can stop wrongly thinking it was only one or two out of the group who spoke out against torture.

2. And even if your disagreement isn't political, that doesn't negate one whit of their experience.

3. Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded EIGHTY THREE TIMES, and KSM was waterboarded ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY THREE TIMES. So obviously it didn't work the first time, or the tenth time, or the fiftieth time...and on KSM, it didn't work on the hundredth or the hundred-and-fiftieth.

...whereas the willing testimony of men who were successful when it counted said their way did work. So your way didn't work after scores and scores of times. No thank you, I'll take their word - and George Washington's wisdom - over yours.

Damn, dude...you kind of got a ways off topic here, didn't you? And in your own thread! Is that the way you roll? Bring up a subject...and then talk about something else?

Sounds familiar...where have I heard that kind of thing before? Oh...I remember. Last Sunday...on one of those Sunday morning political talk shows. Someone ask a question of a Democratic polititian...a Senator or something. He never did answer the question...just started talking about something else.

You taking lessons from those guys?
 

Glen Contrarian

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Damn, dude...you kind of got a ways off topic here, didn't you? And in your own thread! Is that the way you roll? Bring up a subject...and then talk about something else?

Sounds familiar...where have I heard that kind of thing before? Oh...I remember. Last Sunday...on one of those Sunday morning political talk shows. Someone ask a question of a Democratic polititian...a Senator or something. He never did answer the question...just started talking about something else.

You taking lessons from those guys?

I notice how you were all over me for being on a different subject, and said not one word to the other guy who's also on the same subject I am. Oh, that's right - I'm the liberal, therefore it must be my fault. Very good, guy.
 

OldWorldOrder

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1. Read the doggone reference, willya, so you can stop wrongly thinking it was only one or two out of the group who spoke out against torture.

So it was every interrogator from WWII?

2. And even if your disagreement isn't political, that doesn't negate one whit of their experience.

It negates your argument that this is political.

3. Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded EIGHTY THREE TIMES, and KSM was waterboarded ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY THREE TIMES. So obviously it didn't work the first time, or the tenth time, or the fiftieth time...and on KSM, it didn't work on the hundredth or the hundred-and-fiftieth.

That was two examples? Cake and pie didn't work with them, either. Does that mean being nice never works?

...whereas the willing testimony of men who were successful when it counted said their way did work. So your way didn't work after scores and scores of times. No thank you, I'll take their word - and George Washington's wisdom - over yours.

lol what?
 

Glen Contrarian

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So it was every interrogator from WWII?



It negates your argument that this is political.



That was two examples? Cake and pie didn't work with them, either. Does that mean being nice never works?



lol what?

Then fine - we're done here. We will have to agree to disagree.
 

OldWorldOrder

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So, for clarity, it was not all- or even most, or even a large minority of- WWII interrogators. It was some people with interrogation experience.

And a variety of methods didn't work with KSM or Abu Zubaydah, so it would be illogical to say that only one is generally ineffective based upon those experiences. By that criteria, all methods of interrogation and elicitation are ineffective.
 

Mycroft

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I notice how you were all over me for being on a different subject, and said not one word to the other guy who's also on the same subject I am. Oh, that's right - I'm the liberal, therefore it must be my fault. Very good, guy.

Nah...

You don't have to be so defensive. It's not only because you are a liberal. I mean, that's part of it, but mainly it's because this is your thread. One would think you'd want to stay on topic in your own thread, right?

Or, maybe you don't like the way this thread has gone for you, so you would rather talk about anything but the topic. That's how liberals often react...as I mentioned in the previous post.
 

Glen Contrarian

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Nah...

You don't have to be so defensive. It's not only because you are a liberal. I mean, that's part of it, but mainly it's because this is your thread. One would think you'd want to stay on topic in your own thread, right?

Or, maybe you don't like the way this thread has gone for you, so you would rather talk about anything but the topic. That's how liberals often react...as I mentioned in the previous post.

No, that's simply an ad hominem attack on your part. A guy from the side you don't like does something that - if you take the opportunity to harp on it - supposedly scores points for you - "see, that's the way they all are!" Reminds me of what my fellow racists of my youth would do whenever they saw a black guy do something even the least bit wrong or questionable - "see, that's the way they all are!"
 

truth seeker?

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Under President Obama:

1. We pay less of a percentage of our personal income in federal taxes since any time since 1950.

2. Taxes are lower for the middle class now than when he took office.

3. Politifact says that Obama's statement that "taxes are lower now for CEO's and hedge fund managers than at any time since the 1950's" is 'mostly true'.

4. The Dow Jones has more than doubled since its nadir a couple months after President Obama took office.

5. President Obama got 'Obamacare' passed - and it was a REPUBLICAN idea pushed by the Heritage Foundation and Newt Gingrich until somebody with a (D) behind his name was able to get it passed.

6. President Obama will likely get immigration reform passed - and in a form that is much more conservative than Reagan's amnesty.

7. President Obama has deported more immigrants than any other president.

8. Bush gave up on Osama bin Laden - President Obama didn't.

9. AND Obama was able to get almost all of the above done despite the fact that he's had to deal with the most obstructive Congress since the Civil War!

If only Barack Hussein Obama had an (R) behind his name, he'd be called the Second Coming of Reagan by our nation's Republicans!
Hahaha the first African-american president the first thing he does is bomb a African nation. However to be honest he is surrounded by powerful right wingers influencing his decisions so cant place all blame on Obama and his faults have been highlighted by right wing media while many of bushes were ignored :( he seemed so genuine before he came to power
 

truth seeker?

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Nah...

You don't have to be so defensive. It's not only because you are a liberal. I mean, that's part of it, but mainly it's because this is your thread. One would think you'd want to stay on topic in your own thread, right?

Or, maybe you don't like the way this thread has gone for you, so you would rather talk about anything but the topic. That's how liberals often react...as I mentioned in the previous post.
But in reality many conservatives are the biggest idealistic out there they a philosophical using idealism to hide there corrupt ideology about society
 

Mycroft

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But in reality many conservatives are the biggest idealistic out there they a philosophical using idealism to hide there corrupt ideology about society

Ummm....Okaaayyyy.

So what does all that have to do with what I said?
 

Mycroft

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No, that's simply an ad hominem attack on your part. A guy from the side you don't like does something that - if you take the opportunity to harp on it - supposedly scores points for you - "see, that's the way they all are!" Reminds me of what my fellow racists of my youth would do whenever they saw a black guy do something even the least bit wrong or questionable - "see, that's the way they all are!"

LOL!! Nice try, dude, but I didn't attack you at all. I only remarked on you running your own thread off topic and remembered where I had seen that kind of thing before.

Hell...now you are playing your race card. How's THAT for common liberal tactics, eh?
 

Glen Contrarian

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LOL!! Nice try, dude, but I didn't attack you at all. I only remarked on you running your own thread off topic and remembered where I had seen that kind of thing before.

Hell...now you are playing your race card. How's THAT for common liberal tactics, eh?

He makes an ad hominem attack and then claims he didn't do it while he describes exactly how he went about doing it...and then when I make a comparison of his actions that in no way even implied that he himself was racist, he accuses me of playing the race card.

Guy, you're just trolling. I'm done with you.
 
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