• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Barack Obama cuts short jail sentences of 214 prisoners

Rogue Valley

Ruscism = Russian fascism
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
85,722
Reaction score
71,044
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Barack Obama cuts short jail sentences of 214 prisoners


3 August 2016

US President Barack Obama has cut short the jail sentences of 214 federal inmates, including 67 life sentences, in what officials say is the single biggest act of presidential clemency in more than 100 years. Most of those affected were guilty of non-violent crimes, many involving possession or distribution of drugs. The president has now made 562 commutations, officials say. He has authorized more than the previous nine presidents combined.

CTuKC0DXAAQhSr8.jpg

While technically a nonviolent crime, the trafficking/distribution of illegal narcotics is insidious nonetheless
 

Erod

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,483
Reaction score
8,227
Location
North Texas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
They'll be back in prison before you know it.
 

eohrnberger

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
57,715
Reaction score
40,159
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
They'll be back in prison before you know it.

Quite possibly. If I recall, the over all trend for people who've been in prison is to re-offend with more serious crimes than the last times. So while these people may have been in prison for non-violence crimes, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they'd re-offend with violence crimes? And if so, on whom are would they be inflicting their violent crimes? Innocent citizens?

If all that adds up and follows, wouldn't a reasonable conclusion be that Obama has enabled the death and injury on innocent US citizens?
 

Mason66

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
27,419
Reaction score
6,487
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Quite possibly. If I recall, the over all trend for people who've been in prison is to re-offend with more serious crimes than the last times. So while these people may have been in prison for non-violence crimes, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they'd re-offend with violence crimes? And if so, on whom are would they be inflicting their violent crimes? Innocent citizens?

If all that adds up and follows, wouldn't a reasonable conclusion be that Obama has enabled the death and injury on innocent US citizens?

I hope every case was examined I want to know what the original charge was and not what they pleaded it down to.

Also if these were drug dealers and not just his pet drug users, then there will be more deaths to come from this group.

That is what drug dealers do.
 

Aristaeus

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
6,937
Reaction score
3,273
Location
UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Socialist
Quite possibly. If I recall, the over all trend for people who've been in prison is to re-offend with more serious crimes than the last times. So while these people may have been in prison for non-violence crimes, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they'd re-offend with violence crimes?

No.

If all that adds up and follows, wouldn't a reasonable conclusion be that Obama has enabled the death and injury on innocent US citizens?

It doesn't add up or follow and it's not a reasonable conclusion.

Your argument is basically that all non violent prisoners should be in jail for the rest of their lives because if they are ever released they will commit violent crimes, thus a president has enabled death on US civilians.
 

American

Trump Grump Whisperer
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
94,981
Reaction score
32,635
Location
SE Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative

Mason66

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
27,419
Reaction score
6,487
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
No.



It doesn't add up or follow and it's not a reasonable conclusion.

Your argument is basically that all non violent prisoners should be in jail for the rest of their lives because if they are ever released they will commit violent crimes, thus a president has enabled death on US civilians.

Again if they are drug dealers, they are not non-violent.

I would like to see a list of who they are and what they were originally charged with.

Why would you think a person that is in prison, even for a non-violent crime, will come out non-violent?

You have to be violent to survive in prison.

Do you think that will stop once they are out?
 

Cardinal

Respected On All Sides
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
100,363
Reaction score
86,876
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Quite possibly. If I recall, the over all trend for people who've been in prison is to re-offend with more serious crimes than the last times. So while these people may have been in prison for non-violence crimes, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they'd re-offend with violence crimes? And if so, on whom are would they be inflicting their violent crimes? Innocent citizens?

If all that adds up and follows, wouldn't a reasonable conclusion be that Obama has enabled the death and injury on innocent US citizens?

The best way to prevent that is to implement programs in prison to mitigate recidivism.
 

Mason66

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Messages
27,419
Reaction score
6,487
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The best way to prevent that is to implement programs in prison to mitigate recidivism.

Maybe Obama should have worked on that. They are his prisons after all.
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
88,061
Reaction score
58,945
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Simpleχity;1066163518 said:
Barack Obama cuts short jail sentences of 214 prisoners




CTuKC0DXAAQhSr8.jpg

While technically a nonviolent crime, the trafficking/distribution of illegal narcotics is insidious nonetheless

We jail more people per capita than communists...something is messed up.

I'm fine with releasing non-violent criminals. Release them all, end the war on drugs, spend our money better, elsewhere.
 

eohrnberger

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
57,715
Reaction score
40,159
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The best way to prevent that is to implement programs in prison to mitigate recidivism.

I thought that we had programs for that already. Yet somehow a 30% recidivism rate, IIRC, is still the case.
 

Cardinal

Respected On All Sides
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
100,363
Reaction score
86,876
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Maybe Obama should have worked on that. They are his prisons after all.

Reforming the us prison system requires the collective political will of the Federal government (Senate, House and Executive), as well as every state government. This can only be accomplished with the backing of the American people who see prisoners as people to be reformed so they can be successfully released back into society rather than thrown into privatized hellholes and forgotten about. This is a system wide problem caused by the national attitude toward law breakers.

For every policy that creates minimum sentencing, the War on Drugs, asset forfeiture and decreasing prison career programs, you can track it to a public policy of "get tough on crime." Then when it all goes hilariously wrong you can throw rocks a single scapegoat for a problem that you, the voter, creates every day he goes to the poll and votes out of fear.
 

Cardinal

Respected On All Sides
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
100,363
Reaction score
86,876
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I thought that we had programs for that already. Yet somehow a 30% recidivism rate, IIRC, is still the case.

The programs are applied with massive disparity. The problem has multiple causes and is system wide. In order to seriously tackle the issue there has to be a nation-wide grassroots campaign to reform the entire justice and prison system. But that won't happen because the emphasis is on throwing prisoners away and forgetting about them.
 

eohrnberger

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
57,715
Reaction score
40,159
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The programs are applied with massive disparity. The problem has multiple causes and is system wide. In order to seriously tackle the issue there has to be a nation-wide grassroots campaign to reform the entire justice and prison system. But that won't happen because the emphasis is on throwing prisoners away and forgetting about them.

There are state prisons and there are federal prisons. For state prisons, I see no nee for "a nation-wide grassroots campaign" that's a state's rights issue, so a state-wide campaign then.

For the federal prisons, I suppose "a nation-wide grassroots campaign" would be applicable.

Those in prison, at least for the exceedingly vast majority, its a result of bad choices they've made for themselves, so self-inflicted.
 

Cardinal

Respected On All Sides
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
100,363
Reaction score
86,876
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
There are state prisons and there are federal prisons. For state prisons, I see no nee for "a nation-wide grassroots campaign" that's a state's rights issue, so a state-wide campaign then.

For the federal prisons, I suppose "a nation-wide grassroots campaign" would be applicable.

Those in prison, at least for the exceedingly vast majority, its a result of bad choices they've made for themselves, so self-inflicted.

Federal vs State is as irrelevant as whether the prisons are painted white or blue. You either believe in the principle behind a successful reform system in order to reduce recidivism or you don't. And yes, without that grassroots campaign there is no impetus for our leaders to change anything. If their voting bloc is either apathetic on the issue or believe in a "throw away the key" principle, then our leaders won't care. The problem is us.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
24,955
Reaction score
34,939
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Again if they are drug dealers, they are not non-violent.

I would like to see a list of who they are and what they were originally charged with.

Why would you think a person that is in prison, even for a non-violent crime, will come out non-violent?

You have to be violent to survive in prison.

Do you think that will stop once they are out?

LOL. In your book both being a drug dealer and being in prison automatically make you violent. That is complete nonsense. Selling drugs is a non-violent crime. Sometimes violence can come with that, but the violence itself is the violent crime, not the selling of drugs. I guess a pharmacist is violent because he sells narcotics too, right?
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
281,619
Reaction score
100,384
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
I praise Obama on this based on my limited knowledge. I am well aware of one case where the man was given a life sentence. I sat through his trial, I had prosecuted a forfeiture case against property found in his possession-property he did not claim so we won on summary judgment. He had two minor state court convictions that resulted in a total of about 18 months of actual prison time. A mule flipped on him and the jury was convinced the mule was truthful. The man got life without parole for attempted possession of trafficking weight cocaine. about the same time this case was being tried, two guys were being tried for armed bank robbery where one of the criminals blew off the breast of a 21 year old or so lady teller -apparently because his gun was in such poor condition he had to physically hold the hammer back with his thumb and he slipped. he only got 18 or so years for permanently maiming a young lady. So I am glad Obama commuted the drug dealer's sentence to what is essentially 20 years. If I had been judge, I would have given the guy maybe five years. He never killed anyone, never threatened anyone, never carried a weapon.
 

eohrnberger

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
57,715
Reaction score
40,159
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Federal vs State is as irrelevant as whether the prisons are painted white or blue. You either believe in the principle behind a successful reform system in order to reduce recidivism or you don't. And yes, without that grassroots campaign there is no impetus for our leaders to change anything. If their voting bloc is either apathetic on the issue or believe in a "throw away the key" principle, then our leaders won't care. The problem is us.

I think more so that the problem isn't with 'us' (those in society, where as those in prison have been removed from that society), and is more so with the convicted criminals.
 

Cardinal

Respected On All Sides
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
100,363
Reaction score
86,876
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I think more so that the problem isn't with 'us' (those in society, where as those in prison have been removed from that society), and is more so with the convicted criminals.

Then you're directly contradicting yourself since you claimed that a "Federal grassroots campaign would be applicable." You are clearly only interested in the subject long enough to figure out how you can use a political opponent as a scapegoat.
 

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
21,351
Reaction score
15,575
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
If I recall, the over all trend for people who've been in prison is to re-offend with more serious crimes than the last times.
Recidivism rates can be high (40-70%, depending on the crime). There is little indication that low-level drug offenders "graduate" to more serious or violent crimes.

We should also note that many tend to "age out" of criminal behavior. Homicide and drug-related arrests tend to peak at 19, and tend to fall off after that. Most criminal careers only last 5-10 years. Throwing people in jail for 50 years might feel good, but from a practical perspective it has little effect on crime rates.

These are some of the reasons why there is now a bipartisan effort to develop more sane (shorter) sentences.


So while these people may have been in prison for non-violence crimes, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they'd re-offend with violence crimes? And if so, on whom are would they be inflicting their violent crimes? Innocent citizens?

If all that adds up and follows, wouldn't a reasonable conclusion be that Obama has enabled the death and injury on innocent US citizens?


No, that's not a reasonable conclusion, even given recidivism statistics -- unless you want to issue life sentences for misdemeanor drug offenses. What you're suggesting is little more than snarling at a political opponent.
 

faithful_servant

DP Veteran
Joined
May 18, 2006
Messages
12,533
Reaction score
5,660
Location
Beautiful Central Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
We jail more people per capita than communists...something is messed up.

I'm fine with releasing non-violent criminals. Release them all, end the war on drugs, spend our money better, elsewhere.

ALL non-violent criminals?? So as long as I don't harm you, I can break into your home and take whatever I want??? :mrgreen:
 

eohrnberger

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
57,715
Reaction score
40,159
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Then you're directly contradicting yourself since you claimed that a "Federal grassroots campaign would be applicable." You are clearly only interested in the subject long enough to figure out how you can use a political opponent as a scapegoat.

That presumes a lot not in evidence.

All I was pointing out:
"Federal grassroots campaign for Federal prisons" & sentencing for that matter.
"State grassroots campaign for State prisons" & sentencing for that matter.

That, and the observation that it is only due to the criminal's own decisions which landed them in prison. On the road to get there, there are lots of wake up calls, which all would have to go unheeded in order to land in prison.
 

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
26,079
Reaction score
12,411
Location
Lauderdale By-The-Sea, FL
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Simpleχity;1066163518 said:
While technically a nonviolent crime, the trafficking/distribution of illegal narcotics is insidious nonetheless

I disagree.

Good for him!
 
Top Bottom