Bans on Abortion hurt ALL women.

[joko104]

It’s the government. I don’t walk around trying to force my personal religious beliefs on other people. The government is doing that.

And let’s face it - this isn’t about religion. Abortion isn’t mentioned specifically in any of the books that any major religion is founded upon.

This is about control and government.

Tell us your intense opposition to covid-19 mandates, businesses ordered closes and elderly business owners financially ruined for life, no mask no entry, must let grandma die alone and your other opposition to government control under the excuse of covid-19.

Of course, this then goes back to the prolife claim that an unborn has a right to life, regardless of what you call it - as a response to your likely claim that covid-19 affects others, so government must control everyone by totalitarian edicts by 20,000+ "executive officers" and bureaucrats - each to their own whim. Which worse? Not wearing a mask in a store like President Biden? Or murdering a child? I hope you notice I am looking at this from both sides, including prolife and how they would see it.

Unless you support abortion including until the moment of birth, I'm pro-choice. Was not upset when a woman carrying a fetus I was the bio of aborted learning of Down Syndrome, not talking to me first. It was her call. If I had any sense of it, I think she made the better decision, but would have fathered that child the rest of the child's life if she kept it. Her choice. I agreed when we agreed to make a child. But I'd do the same if this and accidental pregnancy. That's the bio-father's role, like it or not, towards a fetus he half made. And that duty is his the rest of his life.

Not trying to derail, but I doubt for your stance on other issues you are particularly concerned by government control. Only government control you don't like. Other government control you absolutely want. Whatever you think best for YOU? The USA is a me! me! me! everything is about me! society. (I'm not attacking you personally. I don't know you, just your words.)

 

[joko104]

All the demands for sex education for children by government at the earliest possible way, to hell with parents, but no one ever likes what I would like (probably).

That if a woman gets an abortion OTHER than her life is at risk or the fetus seriously deformed, that she is required to take a sex hygiene class and be tested for STDs. It is highly likely the woman is not practicing safe sex and possibly is recklessly promiscuous, and since this also means STDs that woman could be more lethal and harmful in permanent ways than someone not vaccinated or wearing a mask.

If the woman refused, first she would be fined and if still not, arrests and put in a room with the educational video playing - a counsellor available if she wants one plus contraceptives (pills, condoms etc) available for free.

I would consider fines (not jailing) after so many abortions if for birth control, not a medical crisis situation or non-viable or severely defective fetus. Abortion is not an acceptable form of birth control, including it likely carries STD risks which endanger others and can become very costly in terms of medical care at taxpayer expense.

What are you're thoughts on this (I don't want to start a thread because I'm already deeper into this Abortion forum than I tend to care to.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

This logic would seem to argue for also making rape legal since we cannot stop all rape.

Rape was never a constitutionally protected right. Abortion obviously is.

 

[NatMorton]

Rape was never a constitutionally protected right. Abortion obviously is.

But if abortion were made illegal, then it would no longer be a constitutionally protected right, which if you read the reply chain closely you'll find was the premise of the statement to which I replied.

 

[Scrabaholic]

All the demands for sex education for children by government at the earliest possible way, to hell with parents, but no one ever likes what I would like (probably).

That if a woman gets an abortion OTHER than her life is at risk or the fetus seriously deformed, that she is required to take a sex hygiene class and be tested for STDs. It is highly likely the woman is not practicing safe sex and possibly is recklessly promiscuous, and since this also means STDs that woman could be more lethal and harmful in permanent ways than someone not vaccinated or wearing a mask.

If the woman refused, first she would be fined and if still not, arrests and put in a room with the educational video playing - a counsellor available if she wants one plus contraceptives (pills, condoms etc) available for free.

I would consider fines (not jailing) after so many abortions if for birth control, not a medical crisis situation or non-viable or severely defective fetus. Abortion is not an acceptable form of birth control, including it likely carries STD risks which endanger others and can become very costly in terms of medical care at taxpayer expense.

What are you're thoughts on this (I don't want to start a thread because I'm already deeper into this Abortion forum than I tend to care to.

Most women who abort are in a steady relationship w/ the man who got them pregnant, so very little risk of STDs.

I thought you believed in freedom???

 

[uptower]

 

[Bullseye]

So you think you don't like abortion. You can't imagine ever doing something like that to your child and you think women who abort are murders.

Here's the problem...that's not really what Roe vs Wade is all about. It's about what exactly would the government have to be able to do in order to have any chance of successfully stopping it.
Whether you like it or not, there are about a thousand different ways that a woman can induce her own miscarriage without the help of a Doctor. Fall down some stairs, punch to the stomach, excessive alcohol, black market drugs, malnutrition, a coat hanger...
If it's so incredibly easy for a woman to induce her own miscarriage how exactly are you going to stop it?
The truth is, that if Abortion is Murder then every single solitary miscarriage that happens in the United States is going to require a Homicide Investigation in which the woman's body is a crime scene and she is the prime suspect.

One-third of all pregnancies in the United States result in a miscarriage, oftentimes before the woman even realizes she's pregnant. Imagine for a moment that you're a young woman who went out drinking with some friends on a Friday night. You wake up the next morning and go to the bathroom only to realize that you were actually pregnant and didn't realize it. You just had a miscarriage.
What should you do? Do you call the police? They're going to find out you were drinking heavily last night. How do they know that you didn't know you were pregnant?
A miscarriage can be an incredibly traumatic experience. Who is a woman supposed to talk to about it? Who can she trust not to turn her in? In Texas, you can get $10k for reporting an abortion. Are you sure your friend or boyfriend wouldn't consider turning you in for that?

How exactly is the Government going to prevent abortion if they don't know who is pregnant, to begin with? If you buy a home pregnancy test at the pharmacy is it going to have to be registered with the State? If you go to the Doctor and find out you are pregnant will your Doctor be required to notify the authorities? Will it become part of the Public Record? Will it be in the paper like Speeding tickets?
Once the government is notified of your pregnancy what is going to happen if you don't produce a baby in 9 months? Will the police come knocking at your door? Will the forensic investigator that comes to inspect your Uterus be as handsome as Scott Bakula?

We've been living in a country where Abortion has been safe and legal for almost 50 years. The result is that few women actually remember what it was like before they had this right. Most people only really think about the question of whether or not they want Abortions to happen, and whether or not they themselves would ever have one.
But the question of abortion being legalized has much more far-reaching ramifications than simply the question of whether you think it is good or bad. Just like the prohibition of Alcohol and the War on Drugs we know that attempts to stop it will be futile and cause way way way more problems than it prevents.

If you seriously think that requiring a vaccine to keep your job is Tyranny then you must understand that forced pregnancy is infinitely worse.
If you seriously think that banning guns will result in bad guys still getting them and good people being disarmed you must see that a ban on abortion will not prevent bad people from aborting and will result in innocent women suffering.

Good think there isn't gonna be a "ban on abortions". Get real: 80% of the voters support abortions:



So which politician would run an anti-abortion campaign against those numbers?

 

[HikerGuy83]

View attachment 67363398

Good thing this won't happen.

Unless the SCOTUS is going to somehow make adoption illegal.

 

[MrWonka]

Good think there isn't gonna be a "ban on abortions". Get real: 80% of the voters support abortions:

So which politician would run an anti-abortion campaign against those numbers?

Irrelevant. There are enough votes on the supreme court to overturn Roe v Wade. The Court doesn't have to care what the majority thinks. Thanks to the stupidity of our Senate and Electoral College Republicans don't actually have to give a shit about what the Majority of Americans think.
And while the majority of Americans are intelligent enough to know Abortion must remain legal, states heavily controlled by Republicans will implement bans.

 

[choiceone]

Explain how banning abortion harms an elderly woman who had a hysterectomy? You can't. Instead, you'll make up strawmen claiming well then the government can order women to do anything - which is nothing but a strawman. I am not part of some detached from reality radical bizarro pro choice cult as if an all consuming secular cult.

People who make their morality on slogans are mindless idiots in my opinion. I've stated my view on abortion and the reasons for it. A ban on abortion or the SCOTUS declaring it's up to the states isn't having women forced to get pregnant, isn't lining them up to be gunned down or gang raped or anything more than what it would be. It won't stop abortions. Having to drive across a state line isn't a death sentence or that big a deal. It would have no effect on women who can't get pregnant.

I'm a little old lady now. As I look back, I see that the day Roe v Wade was decided was one of the most joyful spiritual days of my life.

It was near the end of January, in gray, clouded, freezing Chicago. The women at work took breaks at different times to watch the TV for the announcement of the judgment. With the judgment, the sun actually came out. Since that time, the whole world has seemed brighter even at night.

No one ever again had support for claim that women were human breeding cattle here.

The government could not force a woman to continue a rape pregnancy just because she couldn't proved she had been raped. It could not force a woman to have her whole body violated just because she had chosen to show love to another human being.

On that day, being a rape victim was somehow transmuted into being a rape survivor.

I remember the women who danced in the street.

If my government took away the right to choose, they would close a door, close a mind, close something open and free. That would be an ultimate sadness you cannot possibly imagine, and because you cannot even imagine it, I feel sorry for you. Taking back a reason why women would dance in the street without any good reason is a churlish viciousness. It would be nice if the US would not decline into it.

 

[Lursa]

Good thing this won't happen.

Unless the SCOTUS is going to somehow make adoption illegal.

Do you believe that adoption is some kind of solution to abortion? Why? It's perfectly legal and encouraged now...and yet we have more than 100,000 kids up for adoption in the US. (And another 300,000 in foster care.)

Er...so I dont understand your reference to adoption.

 

[Bullseye]

Irrelevant. There are enough votes on the supreme court to overturn Roe v Wade. The Court doesn't have to care what the majority thinks. Thanks to the stupidity of our Senate and Electoral College Republicans don't actually have to give a shit about what the Majority of Americans think.

You need to laarn to think beyond narrow-minded partisan horse manure.

And while the majority of Americans are intelligent enough to know Abortion must remain legal, states heavily controlled by Republicans will implement bans.

Uh, givent that 80% of voters support abortion in some form your thesis is flawed. Unless you think 80% of voters are Republicans.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

But if abortion were made illegal, then it would no longer be a constitutionally protected right, which if you read the reply chain closely you'll find was the premise of the statement to which I replied.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

The only way abortion could not be a constitutionally protected right is obviously to not have any constitutional rights at all because every single right we have applies to abortion.

 

[MrWonka]

You need to laarn to think beyond narrow-minded partisan horse manure.

That is not an argument that has any value or validity. Either make a point or quit wasting my time.

Uh, givent that 80% of voters support abortion in some form your thesis is flawed. Unless you think 80% of voters are Republicans.

If my thesis is wrong then explain why the Supreme Court, controlled by Republicans is currently on the verge of blowing up Roe v Wade. Explain to me why states like Mississippi and Texas have passed laws that blatantly violate the constitution and take away women's reproduction rights with such unbelievable confidence that they will stand.
Explain why the party which is 100% in favor of banning abortion won Virginia's governor's race and is the odds on favorite to take control of the House and Senate next year.

Answer: Even though the majority of Americans support Abortion rights, there are just enough idiots who don't really care enough about them to vote for pieces of shit that will ban Abortion. Furthermore, the election laws of this country do not ensure that the majority of American's opinion actually matters to their leaders.

 

[Dragonfly]

Bans on Abortion hurt ALL women.​

I’m 100% Pro-Choice.

Please tell me how abortion ban hurts grandmothers who are well past menopause.

 

[Bullseye]

That is not an argument that has any value or validity. Either make a point or quit wasting my time.

You ain't as important as you think you you are.

If my thesis is wrong then explain why the Supreme Court, controlled by Republicans is currently on the verge of blowing up Roe v Wade.

It's not. You've been mainlining the sewage the LW propaganda ministry is pumping out. As I said in the remark above, you're totally under the spell of the LW Big wigs.

Explain to me why states like Mississippi and Texas have passed laws that blatantly violate the constitution and take away women's reproduction rights with such unbelievable confidence that they will stand.

I have problems with the Texas law and I'm thoughtful enough not to lump them together. The Mississippi law is an attempt to define viability, frankly I'm going to be surprised if SCOTUS doesn't enforce R v W criteria.

Explain why the party which is 100% in favor of banning abortion won Virginia's governor's race and is the odds on favorite to take control of the House and Senate next year.

Again, spit out the LW sewage - you're to intelligent to regress to mindless partisan poppycock. As I mentioned above with 80% in favor of legalized abortion in some form - there's either a hell of a lot more republicans around or some evil Trumpsters support abortion.

Answer: Even though the majority of Americans support Abortion rights, there are just enough idiots who don't really care enough about them to vote for pieces of shit that will ban Abortion. Furthermore, the election laws of this country do not ensure that the majority of American's opinion actually matters to their leaders.

you're not thinking - 80 friggin' percent. 4 out of every 5 people favor some form of legalized abortion. You're just spewing the mantras and slogans your cult leaders have drummed into your head.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

I’m 100% Pro-Choice.

Please tell me how abortion ban hurts grandmothers who are well past menopause.

You don't have to be a grandma to stop ovulating, Usually menopause occurs when women are in their 40s. Many women never become fertile for medical reasons or unnaturally become sterile.

The answer is the mother of a pregnant woman who can't take care of a baby would be stuck caring for the child herself indefinitely unless an adoption was worked out before childbirth. I had a coworker who did this with her son. What if the grandma has no interest in caring for a baby at the time either? Maybe the decision to have an abortion is with the grandma in mind too, not just the mom herself.

 

[Dragonfly]

You don't have to be a grandma to stop ovulating, Usually menopause occurs when women are in their 40s. Many women never become fertile for medical reasons or unnaturally become sterile.

Gee… thanks...

 

[joko104]

I'm a little old lady now. As I look back, I see that the day Roe v Wade was decided was one of the most joyful spiritual days of my life.

The second most joyous day of my life was when my wife suddenly went to premature labor from a seizure alone at home with me, a backwards breach birth (arm pits and chin won't clear) - seeing two tiny legs. They kicked a few seconds and then went still. I had read the books. The "fetus" was switched to breathing and couldn't get air. I managed to get one arm, then the other, but the chin bound. A nurse on the phone was screaming for me to grab "it" by the legs and firmly twist "it" out like a corkscrew. I knew what the nurse was saying - kill it, save the mother. I couldn't do it, as my wife over and over on her hands and knees said "dear heavenly father, please save my baby" over and over. I could do it. I just dropped the phone.

I final slipped the chin free. A girl. Lifeless. Cold. Clammy. I began mouth to mouth and chest compressions - the nurse shouting "pick up the phone!"
3 minutes. 5 minutes. 10 minutes... I couldn't bring myself to tell my wife she's lost. Hoping the paramedics and midwife team would get there. Finally, not knowing what to do, held her up by her feet and shook her saying "sing to me girl." She coughed. But no body movement. Brain damage.
The paramedics arrived, took her, cutting the cord - but my wife cried out "don't let them take my baby!"

I figured she had a right to hold one time and quickly scooped the baby out of the paramedics arm. She threw her arms out and kicked her legs, handing her to my wife, being like a lineman keeping the 2 paramedics away. Soon the midwife team arrived, check our new girl, had an aid start a warm water bath - and told the paramedics thank you for coming, but they aren't needed, mother and child just fine. Not so much as a birth mark. (I've posted about this before)

My most joyous day was saving the life my youngest daughter, the day she was born, more intense, more terrifying. I would have to say the next most joyous days were the birth of each of my other children. Learning that a woman surrogate birth mothering told me she aborted the fetus learning it had Down Syndrome was neither joyous nor sad, other than sad she went thru that all. That was my wife's view too, no judgment, her decision. But not something to celebrate. She agreed to get pregnant again for my wife, and to her great displeasure learned she was having twins, which she did not want to have, but did not abort one of them knowing this would crush my wife and wouldn't want to live a secrecy lie.

I'm pro-choice, with some late term exceptions, but you and I are so very different.:
Among your most joyous days are the day you gained the right to legally have a fetus you were the bio-mother of destroyed - for any reason or no reason at all.
My most joyous days - probably speaking for my wife too - was the days her fetuses and those I was the biofather of became our children.

I can't imagine celebrating abortions or the right to destroy their own fetus as joyous. We are that different. But I won't judge you if you don't judge me.

 

[joko104]

Good think there isn't gonna be a "ban on abortions". Get real: 80% of the voters support abortions:

View attachment 67363399

So which politician would run an anti-abortion campaign against those numbers?

Against a candidate who supported partial birth abortions.

 

[Dragonfly]

The answer is the mother of a pregnant woman who can't take care of a baby would be stuck caring for the child herself indefinitely unless an adoption was worked out before childbirth.

A grandmother is not in any way legally responsible for raising a child one of her children has.

That’s 100% voluntary.

There’s no “stuck”.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Yes it does.


The government is telling women that they have control over what medical procedures they can/cannot have.

If not directly, that indirectly impacts ALL women.

Abortion is not a medical procedure.

And to that end we already regulate all kinds of medical procedures you can and cannot have

 

[BirdinHand]

Abortion is not a medical procedure.

And to that end we already regulate all kinds of medical procedures you can and cannot have

How is abortion NOT a medical procedure?

 

[gbg3]

When, if ever, and how, does a fetus gain any legal rights?

Thank you for introducing this important aspect which, IMO, every other comment was choosing to deliberately and callously ignore. What a strange read this thread has been.

 

[gbg3]

Explain how banning abortion harms an elderly woman who had a hysterectomy? You can't. Instead, you'll make up strawmen claiming well then the government can order women to do anything - which is nothing but a strawman. I am not part of some detached from reality radical bizarro pro choice cult as if an all consuming secular cult.

People who make their morality on slogans are mindless idiots in my opinion. I've stated my view on abortion and the reasons for it. A ban on abortion or the SCOTUS declaring it's up to the states isn't having women forced to get pregnant, isn't lining them up to be gunned down or gang raped or anything more than what it would be. It won't stop abortions. Having to drive across a state line isn't a death sentence or that big a deal. It would have no effect on women who can't get pregnant.

And thank you for this oh so reasonable comment also!