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Banning Abortion: Does It Make Sense?

politicalman58

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Would it make sense to ban abortion?

I tend to be a centrist communitarian voter who can vote for a left or right-wing party.

But I do not think it would make sense to ban abortion, as, while making it a crime, would not prevent it from happening.

Adults could ask doctors to come over for dinner as "friends," while minors would look up how to perform abortions on the Internet.

My concern would be if a minor looked up how to commit abortion on the Internet, did it wrong, and wound up bleeding to death because she did not want to be taken to a hospital because she committed a "crime."

It seems to be the "ends" of banning abortion does not justify the "means" of keeping it legal.
 

Old and wise

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Not to mention the fact that there would be a revolution in this country if abortion were banned. And I would be a part of it.
 

tecoyah

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I agree that legislation Banning abortion would be detrimental to many who decide it is right for them. The issue I see here is the Black and White definitions set before the society we live in, and the inevitable wall this creates. Both sides of this debate have Valid points....and so play them against each other, rather than trying to meet in the middle. A perfect example would be the unnamed religious extremists on this board who cannot communicate what they feel in anything other than the "You are a murderer" mentality. I fail to see what this can accomplish if one hopes to sway someone to another point of view, as it only manages to alienate.
If by chance...someone accepts that there is a certain immorality involved in abortion, but also feels compelled to stand up for inalienable rights to personal freedom, they are put in an awkward position, a borderline between the sides. The interesting part is when they see the religion card come into play, many are literally forced to decide against the ethics, in favor of the freedom simply because of the blinders worn by Dogma.

Its a true Pity...that we are forced to even pick a side, let alone pick one that makes us look evil in the minds of the devout.
 

Gibberish

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Old and wise said:
Not to mention the fact that there would be a revolution in this country if abortion were banned. And I would be a part of it.
I'm with you. There would be a huge uprising and political shift if abortion was banned.
 

Hornburger

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The real question concerning abortion is how much people would get deterred to get an abortion by an abortion law. I think people on the whole would be deterred because people can be greatly deterred if they can be prosecuted by the law. With a child's life in question, one would think people would go through with the abortion whether it is legal or not. However, I do not think this is the approach most people would take because of the law's great influence on people. If it is illegal, less people would probably have the abortion.
 

politicalman58

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Hornburger said:
The real question concerning abortion is how much people would get deterred to get an abortion by an abortion law. I think people on the whole would be deterred because people can be greatly deterred if they can be prosecuted by the law. With a child's life in question, one would think people would go through with the abortion whether it is legal or not. However, I do not think this is the approach most people would take because of the law's great influence on people. If it is illegal, less people would probably have the abortion.
I am not liberal but I don't think banning abortion will do anything but criminalize people who would otherwise not be criminals...

I think it comes down to whether you believe should have more rights, the adult citizen or the future unborn citizen...
 

Gibberish

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Hornburger said:
The real question concerning abortion is how much people would get deterred to get an abortion by an abortion law. I think people on the whole would be deterred because people can be greatly deterred if they can be prosecuted by the law. With a child's life in question, one would think people would go through with the abortion whether it is legal or not. However, I do not think this is the approach most people would take because of the law's great influence on people. If it is illegal, less people would probably have the abortion.
Yes to a degee but there will be a significant number of deaths, sicknessess, etc. due to back-alley abortions if abortions are banned. Also there will be new types of "morning after" drugs on the black market that are not FDA approved and can cause harm to individuals and possibly cause contagious diseases as side effects.

Also for us in the south-west you have Mexican cities used as an abortion clinic which will cause the same problems as I stated above.
 

Hornburger

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On that question, I would say the unborn citizen. The child didn't do anything wrong and didn't have any choice in the matter, but the adult DID have a choice, they could have took birth pills or refrained from having sex.

I do believe abortion is murder, it is the murder of a living human, and therefore aborters should be criminilized for that action.
 

Gibberish

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Hornburger said:
...they could have took birth pills or refrained from having sex.
I hope you don't honestly believe those are the only scenarios that a woman who seeks an abortion gets pregnant.
 

tecoyah

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Hornburger said:
On that question, I would say the unborn citizen. The child didn't do anything wrong and didn't have any choice in the matter, but the adult DID have a choice, they could have took birth pills or refrained from having sex.

I do believe abortion is murder, it is the murder of a living human, and therefore aborters should be criminilized for that action.

Likely....this would be almost as effective as the "War on Drugs".



............................Almost..............................
 

Hornburger

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No, of course not, but in rape cases it should be legalized. I know it is difficult to tell if one has been raped or not, but on the whole, these kind of cases are rare. Because of their difficulty to prove, however, there would need to be sufficient evidence available in order to prove one's guilt so the victim can abort the baby.
 

tecoyah

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Hornburger said:
No, of course not, but in rape cases it should be legalized. I know it is difficult to tell if one has been raped or not, but on the whole, these kind of cases are rare. Because of their difficulty to prove, however, there would need to be sufficient evidence available in order to prove one's guilt so the victim can abort the baby.
Think that through for a sec. If a court case lasts for two months, in order to prove the Rape charges....might that pose a few...uh...problems?
 

Hornburger

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ahh...good point. Well...is it possible to make it that speedy of a trial to get it all done before the baby is born? Maybe they could just speed them up and put a special importance on such cases.
 

ngdawg

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Now you're getting into semantics on the assumption that things would flow accordingly. That just doesn't happen.
Abortions actually have been legal off and on since the Romans owned a piece of Palestine. The recognition that women have rights to what happens to their bodies was a long time coming to begin with in this country; to rescind at this point would be archaic at best and at worst, cause for unrest, overload of court systems, increase the crimes of illegal medical practice, etc.
We have to deal with what and who are here, ensure their rights are recognized as contributing members of society and have the best medical, legal and educational information available so that the choices made are half-way intelligent ones.
Prohibition didn't work; it MADE more crime. The so called 'war on drugs' is an abysmal failure on every level. Gun laws aren't even foolproof. Banning something doesn't make it go away, it just makes the lowest level of opportunists thrive.
 

Hornburger

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ngdawg said:
Now you're getting into semantics on the assumption that things would flow accordingly. That just doesn't happen.
Abortions actually have been legal off and on since the Romans owned a piece of Palestine. The recognition that women have rights to what happens to their bodies was a long time coming to begin with in this country; to rescind at this point would be archaic at best and at worst, cause for unrest, overload of court systems, increase the crimes of illegal medical practice, etc.
We have to deal with what and who are here, ensure their rights are recognized as contributing members of society and have the best medical, legal and educational information available so that the choices made are half-way intelligent ones.
Prohibition didn't work; it MADE more crime. The so called 'war on drugs' is an abysmal failure on every level. Gun laws aren't even foolproof. Banning something doesn't make it go away, it just makes the lowest level of opportunists thrive.
Those things you mention are entirely different, they only deal with the effect on yourself and aren't real "crimes" until the person takes it to another level. Abortion is the act of murder. Will we not prosecute murder now because it saves jail space? There is a big difference between harm done to one's self alone and harm done to someone else.

And about what you said the values of choice and control, what about society's value of life? We have to try and prosecute murderers even if it would be relatively expensive. It is the best thing for society as a whole.

And banning something doesn't make things go away, but it does lower the number of people participating in the crime because there is incentive not to be punished.
 

ngdawg

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Oh Gawd, another one....:roll:
What is this, tagteam fanaticism?

Incentive to make it go away? suuuuuuuuuure...that's why drugs are so rampant, all those full jailcells are incentive...that's why Al Capone, et al were allowed to flourish during Prohibition....all that incentive....sheesh:roll:
At least if you're going to make stuff up as you go, make it convincing.
 

tecoyah

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Hornburger said:
How many times must I say this? This is a different situation than drugs. Drugs only deal with a harmful effect on the user! Abortion deals with the death of an innocent.
In Your Opinion.....this is the key to every freakin one of these threads. Just because one person truly believes an embryo is an innocent Human life....does not mean everyone believes this. And everyone does not. So, we come to the Jist of this debate:

Is it OK for you to force an opinion on another person, which will effect the well being of said individual. Bearing in mind that the actions of this person will have no effect whatsoever on yourself?
 

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In Your Opinion.....this is the key to every freakin one of these threads. Just because one person truly believes an embryo is an innocent Human life....does not mean everyone believes this. And everyone does not. So, we come to the Jist of this debate:

Is it OK for you to force an opinion on another person, which will effect the well being of said individual. Bearing in mind that the actions of this person will have no effect whatsoever on yourself?
ehh, I did delete that reply you quoted because I later thought I misconceived ngdawg's point. But it still works I guess.

Anyway, yes, that is my opinion that it is a human life.

I don't recall me forcing my opinions on anyone else, I was only saying my opinion on what I feel would be best for society as a whole. It does not necessarily have to benefit me, illegalizing abortion hurts me, not helps me. But I still think it would be right to illegalize it. It is a huge deal to me? No, because it does not affect as many Americans like other issues do. But it is still my opinion on the subject.
 

ngdawg

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According to, among other sources, Planned Parenthood, approximately 1.3 million abortions are performed each year. Taking an even 30 years in the time of RvW, let's reverse all this by numbers.
23,400,000 children born within the 30 years, with the 40% conception-to-birth averages.
approx. 120,000 adoptions of children per year(figure taken from the President's 'National Adoption Month Proclamation' that would be:
3,600,000 with a home after birth. This leaves a growth of
19,800,000.
If we take the figures on an annual basis, adjusted for 2004 they are as follows:
1,300,000 births annually
120,000 adoptions annually
1,280,000 left in the care of Social Services, ie; foster care. Now, foster care, while I'm sure is better than nothing, it is a fully tax-payer based institution. According to HornyB, he doesn't want his taxes going to supporting those in prison, advocates killing murderers, which he deems pro-choicers to be. However, a large percentage of those in foster care, those which he now supports(gladly, I am sure) are more likely to commit crime than those in stable home environments. 1 in 142 citizens are in prison now. This number would increase yearly by over 8,000 as by the stats above.
Now, NOT advocating or condemning the choice itself, how would HornyB suggest supporting the 8,000 more inmates a year as a result of no abortions, a figure that would amount to 240,000 in that 30 year span. Keep in mind that average cost of housing just one inmate is about $15,000 per year times the 8,000 per year new ones.
 

steen

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Hornburger said:
Abortion is the act of murder.
Your claim is false. Murder is the illegal killing of a person. Abortion is legal and the embryo is not a person. So your claim is false.
And about what you said the values of choice and control, what about society's value of life?
What of society's vlaue of opposing slavery, of opposing the control of another person's body against their will?
 

steen

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Hornburger said:
Anyway, yes, that is my opinion that it is a human life.
And you can have that opinion. SHould your opinion be legislated?
I don't recall me forcing my opinions on anyone else, I was only saying my opinion on what I feel would be best for society as a whole.
And it is best for society that women's control of their bodies be taken away, that they are made slaves?
It does not necessarily have to benefit me, illegalizing abortion hurts me, not helps me. But I still think it would be right to illegalize it. It is a huge deal to me? No, because it does not affect as many Americans like other issues do. But it is still my opinion on the subject.
As 3 of every 5 women will have an abortion in their lifetime, it affects A LOT of Americans.

It affect more Americans than most issues do.
 

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Hornburger said:
On that question, I would say the unborn citizen. The child didn't do anything wrong and didn't have any choice in the matter, but the adult DID have a choice, they could have took birth pills or refrained from having sex.
Yes, now contraceptives make sexual unions freely possible without it becoming a definitive committment. But, if it is too late, and a child is already in the picture, women should use the means that science places at their disposal- abortion, because a child who was not wanted at the moment of conception, can't blossom fully since it wasn't created in love and harmony.


I do believe abortion is murder, it is the murder of a living human, and therefore aborters should be criminilized for that action.
Why? A fetus does not have a conciousness. Up until the point of viability (usually 7months or sooner) I'd say abortions are perfectly acceptable.
 

ngdawg

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Hornburger said:
On that question, I would say the unborn citizen. The child didn't do anything wrong and didn't have any choice in the matter, but the adult DID have a choice, they could have took birth pills or refrained from having sex.

I do believe abortion is murder, it is the murder of a living human, and therefore aborters should be criminilized for that action.
You're allowed your opinions of course, but they are extremely naive.
You believe it's murder, and believe murderers should have the death penalty...either way you condone killing. But you don't suggest viable compromises.
Birth control is not 100% effective...both men and women can and do have strong reproductive systems, strong enough that BC pills can and do, on occasion, fail. Condoms break...abstinence is the only 100% effective method and, let's face it, not many practice it past a certain age. With variables, abortion has to be a decision at times. A woman undergoing fertility treatments who ends up with 8 or 9 embryos...none will live, so selective reduction is a viable alternative. If the law were rescinded except in cases of rape or health, it certainly is sure one desperate enough will use those and succeed in her quest.
And it still falls on the matter of rights. While an embryo certainly exists, it does not as a viable seperate life and as it is in the woman's body and affecting her, it has to be her right to decide, abortion, adoption, whatever. Killing women as murderers because YOU think it's murder to abort is a bit over the top and totally void of logic. Even jailing them is-1.3 million women serving time???? Get real, kid
 

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ngdawg said:
Birth control is not 100% effective...both men and women can and do have strong reproductive systems, strong enough that BC pills can and do, on occasion, fail. Condoms break...abstinence is the only 100% effective method and, let's face it, not many practice it past a certain age.
Yup, these naive, people kept in their medevil straightjackets say that condoms aren't 100% safe. Fine, lets say its 99.9% safe, with 0.1% chance of risk, according to the official figures. I ask you this: can we really live our lives at 100% safe?
 

ngdawg

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Well, sure!!! If you lock yourself in a sunproof room with cushioned walls and floors and a 50 year supply of clorox, an air filtration system, a home pasteurizing system and no access to cable tv :2rofll:
Did I forget anything?
 
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