Bad Drunk Driving Laws, False Evidence and a Fading Constitution

[Technocratic]

The VERY next time you drive "reckless"..... you shall be arrested. And then charged as if you were intoxicated. Then be subjected to all the above fines Ive mentioned before.
YOU. ARE. GUILTY. (of driving impaired)

Certainly, if what you are doing is on a similar level of cognitive impairment. That would be in the same category, then. That's only asking for consistency. eace

 

[Caine]

1st.... what KIND of nuns? :roll: oke

Secondly In Naperville, IL on your 1st offense of DUI, guilty or not... you pay $700 impoundment fee for your car. Then you pay the tow and storage fee VIA the tow company. Then I THINK you pay $4000 if youre found guilty. (because thats what Naperville wants) Then you pay the DuPage County fees. That varies but is about $5000. Then you have to pay for alcohol classes... $2500. Dont forget your lawyer! $3000 right off the bat. $5000-$10000 IF you go to trial. :roll:

Then try to pay that off when you lose your job.

Nobody said you had to hire a lawyer.... that expense is not the state's responsibility.

As per the rest of it, Ive never heard of anywhere in the great US of A where one pays a fine to the City. As cities don't collect and/or set the fine for the offense, the state does. You pay the money to the state.
Also, Im having a hard time understanding how "county fees" are 5k when the fine was 4k. So every time you pay a fee on a speeding ticket its 5k?

Don't want to pay for alcohol classes? Don't be a stinkin' alcoholic.

Don't way to pay any of this ****... Don't be a ****ing moron and go drinking and driving and then complain about how hard the state kicked your ass for being a moron.

 

[MaggieD]

Don't want to pay for alcohol classes? Don't be a stinkin' alcoholic. Don't way to pay any of this ****... Don't be a ****ing moron and go drinking and driving and then complain about how hard the state kicked your ass for being a moron.

Green Noodle, this is why you are fighting a losing battle, imo. You just can't fault the man's logic. Being convicted of drunk driving can be a life-changing moment. Even being arrested for it can put a fellow into a spiral of debt. I have one problem with the law in Illinois. As I understand it, you can blow under the legal limit and STILL be arrested for a DUI.

That's wrong, imo. I don't think there's a soul who drinks who hasn't gotten behind the wheel of a car when he shouldn't have...though I do think that people are much more careful about it. I can understand your frustration; but it's again back to "that man's logic." You just won't get sympathy from anyone -- unless perhaps they've stood in your shoes before the judge.

@ Caine: Here's IL's DUI penalty for first offense:

First Drunk Driving Conviction
•Jail – Up to 1 Year Possible
•Jail – Add Up to 6 Months - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)
•Fine – Up to $2,500
•Fine – Add $500 Minimum (BAC above .16)
•Fine – Add $1,000 Minimum - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)
•License Suspension – Minimum 1 Year
•Breath Alcohol Ignition Interlock Device (BAIID) Possible
•Vehicle Registration Suspension
•Community Service – 100 Hours Minimum - (BAC above .16)
•Community Service – 25 Days - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)
Illinois DUI Laws |Drunk Driving Penalties, Fines, SR22 Insurance | drivinglaws.org

If what I understand is true, that one can get a DUI for less than our state's .08, I think, after reading this thread, I'd have to agree that it's pretty steep. Giving the officer so much power on the street isn't a good thing, imo. Yes, of course, one can avoid it; but still, if one isn't even safe below the legal limit, then that does seem severe to me. Ought to make a distinction in the law.

 

[Caine]

Green Noodle, this is why you are fighting a losing battle, imo. You just can't fault the man's logic. Being convicted of drunk driving can be a life-changing moment. Even being arrested for it can put a fellow into a spiral of debt. I have one problem with the law in Illinois. As I understand it, you can blow under the legal limit and STILL be arrested for a DUI.

Yes, You can be arrested under a "legal limit" for DWI. In order for this to happen, an officer has to prove impairment regardless of the BAC blown. Im impaired at .06.. I know this to be a fact.

That's wrong, imo. I don't think there's a soul who drinks who hasn't gotten behind the wheel of a car when he shouldn't have...though I do think that people are much more careful about it. I can understand your frustration; but it's again back to "that man's logic." You just won't get sympathy from anyone -- unless perhaps they've stood in your shoes before the judge.

Ive never got behind the wheel of a vehicle when Ive had anything to drink, let alone when "I shouldn't have". One must remember the 5 "P's". Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.


@ Caine: Here's IL's DUI penalty for first offense:

First Drunk Driving Conviction
•Jail – Up to 1 Year Possible [/quote]POSSIBLE. Meaning, with really ****ty circumstances. Or you were a moron and violated your probation.

•Jail – Add Up to 6 Months - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)

Again, really ****ty circumstance. Who the **** does that? They deserve to be in jail.

•Fine – Up to $2,500

"Up To" Keyword there. Meaning for a .12 with no crash no kids in the car, you MIGHT be looking at a quarter of that.

•Fine – Add $500 Minimum (BAC above .16)

Add 500 bucks to whatever lowly original fine was issued out of the "UP TO" amount. Check.

•Fine – Add $1,000 Minimum - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)

Again, the asshole is lucky he isn't in jail on that one.

•License Suspension – Minimum 1 Year

I'd be willing to bet you failed to find out how often one gets a limited license to drive to and fro work under this.

•Breath Alcohol Ignition Interlock Device (BAIID) Possible

Keyword. Possible.

•Vehicle Registration Suspension

I'd be willing to bet thats also a possible.

•Community Service – 100 Hours Minimum - (BAC above .16)

BAC above .16... what about below it.. The Goof Nooble keeps telling us about these 10k fines and community service for grannies who went out and had 2 glasses of wine. Lets focus on his ridiculous scenario.

•Community Service – 25 Days - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)

again, should be thankful they aren't DOING 25 days.
Illinois DUI Laws |Drunk Driving Penalties, Fines, SR22 Insurance | drivinglaws.org

If what I understand is true, that one can get a DUI for less than our state's .08, I think, after reading this thread, I'd have to agree that it's pretty steep.

Yes. If one managed to be proved to be impaired at a .06 and managed to get the max fines and punishments as listed above, then yes, that would be steep. However, judging from my own experience in watching over 120 DWI offenders get convicted and sentenced from my own personal cases. Ive never seen even HALF the max punishments given out, even when these involved 2nd time offenses, crashes, injuries, etc.

Giving the officer so much power on the street isn't a good thing, imo. Yes, of course, one can avoid it; but still, if one isn't even safe below the legal limit, then that does seem severe to me. Ought to make a distinction in the law.

The officer doesn't have the power. The JUDGE does. The Officer isn't the one who sets the punishments within limitations set by the legislature.
The officer just investigates, arrests, and reports to the court at trial. The rest is up to the judge.

Don't like being "not safe" below the legal limit? Don't be such a ****ing lightweight. Learn to eat before boozing and hold your booze.

 

[Caine]

This whole notion of "a few drinks" and being caught impaired is ridiculous.

You know how many drinks it took me to get to a .06... MY PERSONAL level of impairment?
6 Within an hour and a half.

Nobody out in public who has to depend upon themselves for transportation needs to drink that much.

Who drinks 6 mountain dews in an hour and a half? Nobody.
So why drink 6 alcoholic drinks in that amount of time? Oh, thats right, to get impaired.

Save me the "TWO BEERS OSSSSIFFFER!" bull****. Ive seen 160lbs guys who have said "Two Beers" and blow a .04... and Ive had about 30 240lbs guys say "Twuu Beerzz" and blow a .21. Save the "Two Beers" "One Beer" "Nothing... uhh... well, I had twu beerzz about 4 hourz uhgo" for some moron who actually believes you.

1 12 oz beer, 1 5oz glass of wine, and 1 1.5 oz shot of standard liquor are about the same amount of ethyl alcohol (the stuff dat getz u drunk). With that said. The average male will accumulate .01 to .015 BAC per drink. For females alot of times its a little more. .02 ish. Now.... it takes the average (non bottle of whiskey per day drinker) about 1 hour to eliminate .0165 alcohol from the body. Sometimes more sometimes less, but not significantly unless you are a hardcore alcoholic who has a damaged liver. Now, when people give me the TWO BEERS ****. I expect them to be at most .04.
The problem is... instead of beers, alot of people are drinking these newfangled "mixed drinks" and considering it to be "one". The problem is, these mixed drinks hold several shots (counted drink, see above) of alcohol in them.

Everyone Following?

 

[MaggieD]

@ GIANT Noodle!!!! OMFG!!!! I did it again!!!! Pullleeeeze forgive me. Where on God's GREEN earth am I getting GREEN Noodle??? I am so sorry!!! (In a post above it's too late to edit. GADS!!!)

[BCaine said:[/B]The officer doesn't have the power. The JUDGE does. The Officer isn't the one who sets the punishments within limitations set by the legislature. The officer just investigates, arrests, and reports to the court at trial. The rest is up to the judge.

What I meant by this was that the officer can decide you are driving impaired when you get your 7-mile-over speeding ticket. If a copper testified to that in court, one's goose would be cooked, as they say. I haven't had any first-hand experience with the court system; but rumor "on the street" is that it costs $5K-$10K for a first-time offense. I don't know how it gets that high, but that's the skinny. As to your never having gotten behind the wheel when you shouldn't have, *applause-applause*. I think you are in the minority.

 

[Caine]

I think you are in the minority.

And that is the sad part. The majority are a bunch of selfish "me generation" dip****s.

 

[MaggieD]

Now, now, Ossifer. ;-)

 

[Ikari]

If what I understand is true, that one can get a DUI for less than our state's .08, I think, after reading this thread, I'd have to agree that it's pretty steep.

.08 is DUI, but almost all states have something like DWAI which carries almost the same exact penalties (there's less time suspension on the license, though that may have changed) and comes in at 0.05

 

[Caine]

.08 is DUI, but almost all states have something like DWAI which carries almost the same exact penalties (there's less time suspension on the license, though that may have changed) and comes in at 0.05

Well, We have DWI. Thats it. You can be guilty of DWI for being high on pot, vicodin, being impaired by booze at >.08 or <.08. As long as impairment can be proven OR a person has a BAC of .08 or higher.

As long as impairment can be showed or alcohol above .08 can be shown. Thats all one needs.

 

[Ikari]

Well, We have DWI. Thats it. You can be guilty of DWI for being high on pot, vicodin, being impaired by booze at >.08 or <.08. As long as impairment can be proven OR a person has a BAC of .08 or higher.

As long as impairment can be showed or alcohol above .08 can be shown. Thats all one needs.

Well as I've said before, you seem to have a well more reasonable State than most of us do. There's a cop in my town notorious for patrolling a few streets late at night pulling over anyone he can. Gives road side and breath and if you're .05 or higher; you're going to jail. Better pray it's not Friday night or the weekend because CO got rid of PR bonds for DUI/DWAI so you'd have to spend the weekend in jail (which they charge you for) till you can see the judge.

Maybe you come from a place of responsible police; but not all of us are fortunate to live in such a place. And I think you'd find conditions more like ours than yours across the country. Just saying. DUI/DWAI is big money for the State and they have their people out trolling for it.

 

[Caine]

Well as I've said before, you seem to have a well more reasonable State than most of us do. There's a cop in my town notorious for patrolling a few streets late at night pulling over anyone he can. Gives road side and breath and if you're .05 or higher; you're going to jail. Better pray it's not Friday night or the weekend because CO got rid of PR bonds for DUI/DWAI so you'd have to spend the weekend in jail (which they charge you for) till you can see the judge.

Maybe you come from a place of responsible police; but not all of us are fortunate to live in such a place. And I think you'd find conditions more like ours than yours across the country. Just saying. DUI/DWAI is big money for the State and they have their people out trolling for it.

The sad part is that you view police officers out looking for impaired drivers as a negative evil "gettin' money for the man" type thing.

While I know my reason for enforcing traffic safety laws have little to do with getting money for the state, and more to do with trying to keep the roadways safe.
Out of drug crimes, property crimes, violent crimes, traffic crimes, and crimes against morality.......for me its.
1. Violent Crimes
2. Traffic Crimes
3. Property Crimes.
4. Drug Crimes
5. Crimes against Morality.

I put traffic crimes above property crimes because people can actually get hurt/killed because of negligence on the roadway. Very few people get hurt/killed stealing ****.

 

[Ikari]

Very few people get hurt/killed stealing ****.

They do on my property.

And what can you really do about violent crimes other than investigate the aftermath? It's not like you can teleport there. Drug crimes can be bad, but are also an excuse for the State to steal people's property. So that one is also used for fundraising. There are problems which need to be addressed. Surely DUI can't be considered legal. But even if there are good things, it can be abused and used for other purposes; such as fundraising. DUI is on that level now. It's a problem, you need to watch for it and punish it; but we've allowed it to become a cash cow and now it's abused by the State.

You may think it's sad that I will recognize and admit reality; but I think it's important to see just how our laws are being enforced and questioning the punishments of anything that goes too far on the part of the State. Police officers in many areas (apparently not your area though) do look for the impaired driver for the money. It's big business and the more DUI you can get, the more money you can have. And if you get enough, you can have police patrolling around town on Segways and driving BMW motorcycles (our cops have these). There is a safety factor in there somewhere, 0 policing of DUI can lead to bad things. But the safety concerns were left behind long ago and now it's all about the Benjamins.

 

[Caine]

They do on my property.

And what can you really do about violent crimes other than investigate the aftermath? It's not like you can teleport there. Drug crimes can be bad, but are also an excuse for the State to steal people's property. So that one is also used for fundraising. There are problems which need to be addressed. Surely DUI can't be considered legal. But even if there are good things, it can be abused and used for other purposes; such as fundraising. DUI is on that level now. It's a problem, you need to watch for it and punish it; but we've allowed it to become a cash cow and now it's abused by the State.

You may think it's sad that I will recognize and admit reality; but I think it's important to see just how our laws are being enforced and questioning the punishments of anything that goes too far on the part of the State. Police officers in many areas (apparently not your area though) do look for the impaired driver for the money. It's big business and the more DUI you can get, the more money you can have. And if you get enough, you can have police patrolling around town on Segways and driving BMW motorcycles (our cops have these). There is a safety factor in there somewhere, 0 policing of DUI can lead to bad things. But the safety concerns were left behind long ago and now it's all about the Benjamins.

Whats wrong with Segways and BMW Motorcycles? Most departments have these.
Most departments have Ford cars too.... I wonder why that is?
Is it because BMW's motorcycles might be a part of Law Enforcement Fleet services, like Ford, Chevrolet, and Dodge?

And... Ive seen Security Guards on segways........Segways are awesome for mobility in targeted neighborhoods and downtown areas, or at special events.

 

[Ikari]

My point is more or less the cost of those things. First off, a bike is way cheaper than a Segway. And there are way cheaper bikes out there than fully decked out BMWs. In times of extreme cuts to budgets and economic turmoil, some precincts are going on a spending spree buying all this nice, new, expensive equipment. Gotta make the money for all those luxury items somehow.

 

[Caine]

My point is more or less the cost of those things. First off, a bike is way cheaper than a Segway. And there are way cheaper bikes out there than fully decked out BMWs. In times of extreme cuts to budgets and economic turmoil, some precincts are going on a spending spree buying all this nice, new, expensive equipment. Gotta make the money for all those luxury items somehow.

Do you understand what "Fleet" means?
Do you also understand that Motor Units don't just ride 'any old bike'? They have to have certain equipment, compartments, etc.....

 

[Ikari]

Yup, I also understand about money and budgets as well. And how much money is made from tickets and DUI and things of that nature. And the habit of law enforcement to ramp up crack downs on these things when they want more expensive luxury items to roll around in.

 

[Caine]

Yup, I also understand about money and budgets as well. And how much money is made from tickets and DUI and things of that nature. And the habit of law enforcement to ramp up crack downs on these things when they want more expensive luxury items to roll around in.

If it only worked like that... I wouldn't be without an annual raise for the last 3 years......

 

[Ikari]

If it only worked like that... I wouldn't be without an annual raise for the last 3 years......

Move to Chicago or pretty much anywhere else and you can do that. Hell, the old police chief of my University was one of the highest paid public servants in CO. Till we found out how horribly corrupt and thieving of a bastard the dude was (Chicago cop, go figure).

In Ft. Collins several years ago, the police wanted money to update their cars and add vehicles, bikes, and Segways. They were told we didn't have the money to do it at the time. Ft. Collins then jumped up within the year to one of the highest DUI cities (DIUs issued) in Colorado. Then the police started running around with super nice BMW motorcycles, top of the line bicycles, etc. Interesting coincidence.

 

[Caine]

Move to Chicago or pretty much anywhere else and you can do that. Hell, the old police chief of my University was one of the highest paid public servants in CO. Till we found out how horribly corrupt and thieving of a bastard the dude was (Chicago cop, go figure).

Yes... because he gives himself a raise... :roll:
I think you have a piss poor idea of how public funding works.

In Ft. Collins several years ago, the police wanted money to update their cars and add vehicles, bikes, and Segways. They were told we didn't have the money to do it at the time. Ft. Collins then jumped up within the year to one of the highest DUI cities (DIUs issued) in Colorado. Then the police started running around with super nice BMW motorcycles, top of the line bicycles, etc. Interesting coincidence.

Based upon the above acknowledgement that you don't have a clue how public funding works.... I have a feeling this is a load of crap.

 

[The Giant Noodle]

Green Noodle, this is why you are fighting a losing battle, imo. You just can't fault the man's logic. Being convicted of drunk driving can be a life-changing moment. Even being arrested for it can put a fellow into a spiral of debt. I have one problem with the law in Illinois. As I understand it, you can blow under the legal limit and STILL be arrested for a DUI.

That's wrong, imo. I don't think there's a soul who drinks who hasn't gotten behind the wheel of a car when he shouldn't have...though I do think that people are much more careful about it. I can understand your frustration; but it's again back to "that man's logic." You just won't get sympathy from anyone -- unless perhaps they've stood in your shoes before the judge.

@ Caine: Here's IL's DUI penalty for first offense:

First Drunk Driving Conviction
•Jail – Up to 1 Year Possible
•Jail – Add Up to 6 Months - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)
•Fine – Up to $2,500
•Fine – Add $500 Minimum (BAC above .16)
•Fine – Add $1,000 Minimum - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)
•License Suspension – Minimum 1 Year
•Breath Alcohol Ignition Interlock Device (BAIID) Possible
•Vehicle Registration Suspension
•Community Service – 100 Hours Minimum - (BAC above .16)
•Community Service – 25 Days - (If Child under 16 in Vehicle)
Illinois DUI Laws |Drunk Driving Penalties, Fines, SR22 Insurance | drivinglaws.org

If what I understand is true, that one can get a DUI for less than our state's .08, I think, after reading this thread, I'd have to agree that it's pretty steep. Giving the officer so much power on the street isn't a good thing, imo. Yes, of course, one can avoid it; but still, if one isn't even safe below the legal limit, then that does seem severe to me. Ought to make a distinction in the law.

1st.... I didnt read Caine's reply yet to your post so I concentrate on yours.
I feel you are accurate in what you said. Except that the misconception of not being safe below the legal limit is utter crap. Its totally false and its a ANOTHER power grab on MADD's behalf. They should have closed their doors 5 years ago if not even before that. But they do that..... they are out of a job. :roll:
I STRONGLY agree that there should be levels of severity. You cant say someone under 0.15 should pay the same fines and penalties as someone above that. Likewise you cant say that someone above 0.25 should get off NEARLY as easy as someone between 0.15 - 0.2.
TRUE drunk drivers should be heavily punished and the current laws already do that.
But when Someone that texts while driving has the virtual BAC of 0.14 and the fine is $50...... that does say something.

 

[The Giant Noodle]

Whats wrong with Segways and BMW Motorcycles? Most departments have these.
Most departments have Ford cars too.... I wonder why that is?
Is it because BMW's motorcycles might be a part of Law Enforcement Fleet services, like Ford, Chevrolet, and Dodge?

And... Ive seen Security Guards on segways........Segways are awesome for mobility in targeted neighborhoods and downtown areas, or at special events.

Well if we are going for the "most" arguement.....
Most off duty officers drink and drive at least once a month.
Most of the time if a officer pulls over an officer they arent charged with a DUI.
Most orders of Fraternal Police stand by the officer even when the offending officer should be behind bars.

NOW..... I very much LIKE police folks. I have a friendship with the chief of police where I live along with other officers. I am blessed to have the best cop-shop in the State I live in. My friend and cousin is the lead detective in a large County in Illinois. He tells me what the reality is.

Look... there is a difference in the reality of the punishment that fits the crime in MOST of the DUI cases. Damn good people are getting FAR too much punishment for what they have done, which is have a few drinks and drive. These arent people that have actually even DONE any harm. In fact a texter and a person that downs a few drinks are supposed to have the possible harmful effect on the road. One is a $50 fine. The other is a long destructive process on the offender.

 

[hazlnut]

As I’ve said in previous posts, drunk driving has become a cash cow for local governments starving for revenue. See DUI: Government’s Cash Cow, How to Make a Million in the DUI Business and What if the Cash Cow Goes Dry?. This has lead to such things as putting pressure on cops with DUI arrest quotas. See Do Police Have Quotas?, "Yes, We Have No Quotas" and "Inside Edition" Documents DUI Quotas Across the US. The hunger of municipalities for money might also influence some judges in their rulings…


http://www.duiblog.com/

I read though the articles you posted. It sounds like this lawyer makes a living defending DUIs. So business is good, right?

I see no problem in police arresting and fining as many drunk drivers as possible.

As far as falsifying evidence, influencing judges, I'd need to see something more concrete from an objective source -- with DUI's you're either over the limit or you're not. The field sobriety test is usually videotaped. So, unless you can show a county where they're regularly arresting people who have not touched a drop of alcohol... I applaud every arrest and conviction.

Most DUI defenses amount to chain of custody issues with blood/urine or questioning the probable cause for the stop.

 

[The Giant Noodle]

I read though the articles you posted. It sounds like this lawyer makes a living defending DUIs. So business is good, right?

I see no problem in police arresting and fining as many drunk drivers as possible.

As far as falsifying evidence, influencing judges, I'd need to see something more concrete from an objective source -- with DUI's you're either over the limit or you're not. The field sobriety test is usually videotaped. So, unless you can show a county where they're regularly arresting people who have not touched a drop of alcohol... I applaud every arrest and conviction.

Most DUI defenses amount to chain of custody issues with blood/urine or questioning the probable cause for the stop.

I also cheer on DUI arrests. Just as long as they are over 0.14
I havent seen a video recorded sobriety test as of yet. Why? The laywer can and will point out the various tests that were done wrong. Also have you seen where officers have gone FAR out of their way to falsely convict drivers of a DUI? I was flying my Cesna on Flight Simulator X and Caine knocked on my door and hauled me away,

 

[hazlnut]

I also cheer on DUI arrests. Just as long as they are over 0.14

In CA it's .08. I thought that was pretty much the norm.

I havent seen a video recorded sobriety test as of yet. Why? The laywer can and will point out the various tests that were done wrong.

Just the opposite -- the video shows that proper procedure was followed at check points. There's quite a few on youtube.

Also have you seen where officers have gone FAR out of their way to falsely convict drivers of a DUI?

No, I haven't seen that. Have you seen that?

Give me an example. Do they take a guy out, buy him some drinks, then arrest him when he gets in his car and turns the ignition??

Look, I thought Libertarians were about freedom and choice. Who's forcing these people to drink in bars and then drive home? They know the law and they have choices. I don't have a lot of sympathy because drinking and driving is risky behavior. It's like people who complain about prostitution laws and police stings.

I've heard people complain about getting DUIs, but none of them ever said they were coming home from Church and were stone cold sober at the time. "I had a few beers, no big deal." My kids safety is a big deal. Pay the fine and pick up some garbage, do the program, but don't pull a Lohan.

I was flying my Cesna on Flight Simulator X and Caine knocked on my door and hauled me away,

I don't know what that means. You were playing a video game and got hauled away for what?