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Azov Movement

sanman

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Mr Person

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What is the point, @sanman?

Are you just nakedly attacking Ukraine, Ukranians, and their resistance to Putin's evil invasion? Or is it supposed to be a side discussion about "white supremacist militia" in Ukraine that just sorta happens to have caught your interest at this moment?


Let's say they have white supremacists and that some have a "militia". And? What's the tie-in to general politics?
 

Grand Mal

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What is the point, @sanman?

Are you just nakedly attacking Ukraine, Ukranians, and their resistance to Putin's evil invasion? Or is it supposed to be a side discussion about "white supremacist militia" in Ukraine that just sorta happens to have caught your interest at this moment?


Let's say they have white supremacists and that some have a "militia". And? What's the tie-in to general politics?
Don't ask questions, just do the assignment.
 

sanman

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The Azov militants were involved in regime change in Ukraine. They showed up at the Maidan and other public places, and carried out violence. They became the henchmen of the nationalist movement.

They are more than just hateful toward non-whites, and have race-hatred toward ethnic Russians who are one third of the country's population, as well as hatred toward Jews and other inferior untermenschen. They want ethnic cleansing.

The reality of Ukraine is that it has various ethnic groups, and meanwhile the most famous and beloved names in Ukrainian nationalism have a history of expressing Nazi ideology, including hatred toward Jews.


I was actually chatting online with a guy in Ukraine when he was livestreaming while marching in that annual event to honor their favorite hero Stepan Bandera, whom they regard as the founding father of their country. He took us on their march through Kyiv, while they all held candles, torches, phone lights, etc. It gave me a front row seat to their national celebration. I didn't diss them or say anything against their hero, even though he was responsible for a lot of deaths, and I could see various flags & symbols in their procession. Hey, I get it - everyone is entitled to ethnic pride - including the Germans.


During World War II, Bandera led the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose men killed thousands of Jews and Poles, including women and children, while fighting alongside Nazi Germany against the Red Army and communists.

At the march, many participants waved banners carrying the symbol of the far-right Svoboda party, whose leaders have often made anti-Semitic comments, and banners reading: “Nationalism is our religion. Bandera is our prophet,” Pravda Ukraine reported.




Some Americans want to "make Ukraine the next Afghanistan for Russia" -- but when I think of Afghanistan, I also think of 9-11, and also the Taliban.
If an Afghan-style jihad were supported in Ukraine through supply of arms and insurgency training -- then what could go wrong? Nah, nothing could go wrong -- why would it?
The one silver lining in this Ukraine invasion, is that it's jolted the Germans into radically boosting their military spending to 2% of GDP, suddenly giving them them the 3rd-largest military budget in the world. Their military budget will be larger than any European country's, and also larger than Russia's.

Theodore Roosevelt supported Imperial Japan in the Russo-Japanese war, because he felt they could tie down the Russians in a war in the far east. The idea that the nationalists of Imperial Japan would then embark on conquest of other countries in the Asia-Pacific didn't really occur to him. Bah, why worry about future hypotheticals? You can just cross(burn?) that bridge when you come to it.
But one Pearl Harbor attack later, and another world war later, along with 2 atomic bombings later, that stunt did perhaps look like an idea that could have been passed over.

The Afghan jihad was another bright idea originating from Dr Zbigniew Brzezinski -- an East European / Polish mind, no less -- who happened to be Jimmy Carter's national security advisor.



Like Teddy, Zbig and Carter were able to bleed the Russian troops (and also Ukrainian ones) in Afghanistan through the jihadists. Being an east european, he had some candid views about his priorities:
Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
Le Nouvel Observateur, Interview with Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, Paris, January 15-21, 1998
That interview was just a few years before the unfortunate events of 9-11, whereupon Zbig quickly ran to testify in front of Congress, speaking about how it could be a 'false flag' attack.

Another East European was Dr Henry Kissinger, Secretary of State for President Nixon to thaw ties with China. Being an East European, he too may have been interested in using China to tie down USSR in the east, however he may not have considered the consequences of that US tilt toward China on the rest of Asia. Taiwan may not be remembering that historic shift very fondly.

How do so many Europeans all get to be national security advisors, anyway? Must be some kind of affirmative action program for people who don't like Russians.


But I do want to say I'm most impressed with retired NATO general, General Breedlove who's advanced the Strange suggestion that the US can impose a No Fly Zone on Russian forces in Ukraine:



 
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joluoto

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Still you can't really claim their ideology is anywhere near in power when the President of Ukraine is a Russophone Jew, and their political wing Svoboda has 1 whole seat in the Rada.... Actually wait, while Svoboda is horrible they are not actually connected to the Azov Battallion, that would be the party called National Corps, and how many seats do they have in the Rada? Ah, 0.... And btw, the Azov battallion are against EU and NATO membership.... so hardly much supporters of the current government.
 

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Still you can't really claim their ideology is anywhere near in power when the President of Ukraine is a Russophone Jew, and their political wing Svoboda has 1 whole seat in the Rada.... Actually wait, while Svoboda is horrible they are not actually connected to the Azov Battallion, that would be the party called National Corps, and how many seats do they have in the Rada? Ah, 0.... And btw, the Azov battallion are against EU and NATO membership.... so hardly much supporters of the current government.

He's a Russian-speaking Jew whose family fought for the Soviet Army. Remember that many Russians died in Nazi concentration camps, while Americans did not.
Nobody sacrificed more people fighting the Nazis than the Russians did.
As a matter of fact, without their sacrifice, the Nazis would have never been defeated.

The Ukrainian nationalists, on the other hand, fought for the Nazis.

Do you understand that Ukraine may become the next Mecca for Nazis? Just like how Islamic radicals from around the world flocked to Afghanistan to fight in a jihad for Islam. Or the Spanish Civil War.
What the **** are you going to do then, when this thing mushrooms?
Just like the jihadists, these people will then start regime change efforts in surrounding countries of Europe.

 

joluoto

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He's a Russian-speaking Jew whose family fought for the Soviet Army. Remember that many Russians died in Nazi concentration camps, while Americans did not.
Nobody sacrificed more people fighting the Nazis than the Russians did.
As a matter of fact, without their sacrifice, the Nazis would have never been defeated.

The Ukrainian nationalists, on the other hand, fought for the Nazis.

Do you understand that Ukraine may become the next Mecca for Nazis? Just like how Islamic radicals from around the world flocked to Afghanistan to fight for jihad and Islam.
What the **** are you going to do then, when this thing mushrooms?


Most Ukrainians did not support the Nazis in WW2, despite how the USSR had treated Ukraine. Most Ukrainians were indeed loyal. Some Russians also backed the Nazis. You are just aping Kreml propaganda by tryong to make Ukraine look like something Nazi, when it's not, and it's about a largely insgnificant group, and such groups can be found in several other nations. If Russia wants to fight Fascism, they have those at home.
 

sanman

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Most Ukrainians did not support the Nazis in WW2, despite how the USSR had treated Ukraine. Most Ukrainians were indeed loyal. Some Russians also backed the Nazis. You are just aping Kreml propaganda by tryong to make Ukraine look like something Nazi, when it's not, and it's about a largely insgnificant group, and such groups can be found in several other nations. If Russia wants to fight Fascism, they have those at home.

Stepan Bandera was a Nazi supporter and affiliate, who led a militant organization which committed atrocities. Do you acknowledge that?

And yet Ukrainian nationalists of all stripes celebrate and honor him. Do you acknowledge that as well?

Show me the Ukrainian leader who condemns Stepan Bandera and acknowledges the wrongs he committed against helpless people. Does Zelensky even condemn him?

And yet Zelensky is able to imprison someone like Viktor Medvedchuk. For doing what exactly? And yet Zelensky is your hero for this?
 

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Stepan Bandera was a Nazi supporter and affiliate, who led a militant organization which committed atrocities. Do you acknowledge that?

And yet Ukrainian nationalists of all stripes celebrate and honor him. Do you acknowledge that as well?
Yes, he was, and most Ukrainians don't celebrate him.

Another collaborator was Boris Smyslovsly, and another was Andrey Vlasov. There were Russian collaborators too.

And I hope you do realize that Russia also has Neo- Nazi movements, and that they have been actice on the Russian side in Donbas for years.
 

sanman

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Yes, he was, and most Ukrainians don't celebrate him.

If he's not important to Ukrainians, then why did Viktor Yuschenko pass a decree making Stepan Bandera a national hero?
Was this not a political move to tap a fan base and win him more popularity? Or was he just randomly name-dropping?


Another collaborator was Boris Smyslovsly, and another was Andrey Vlasov. There were Russian collaborators too.

And I hope you do realize that Russia also has Neo- Nazi movements, and that they have been actice on the Russian side in Donbas for years.
Soviet history does not glorify the Nazis. It actually eulogizes Nazi victims.

People from the Far Right are not flocking from the around the world to go to Russia, just as jihadists from around the world are not flocking to go to Russia.
People from the Far Right are now flocking to Ukraine. Because the Far Right sees glory in killing Russians, just like the jihadists did.
But as they achieve success, the Far Right will later expand their gaze elsewhere, just like the jihadists did.
This is inevitable.

Zelensky should condemn the Far Right, and declare that they have no place in Ukrainian society. He should refuse to help them or take help from them in this war.

The Russian Army has now captured the Azov base in Donskoe:

o5qy2iwdxck81.jpg


Those guys are really heavy into the symbology, I've noticed. They're really building a mystique around it. Gonna need a new Indiana Jones movie, if this keeps up.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Yes, he was, and most Ukrainians don't celebrate him.

Another collaborator was Boris Smyslovsly, and another was Andrey Vlasov. There were Russian collaborators too.

And I hope you do realize that Russia also has Neo- Nazi movements, and that they have been actice on the Russian side in Donbas for years.
Has the Russian PM ever gone to a neo Nazi concert to listen to a song called “six million lies”?
 

OrphanSlug

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Looks like the Russian disinformation campaign is running full tilt today... again.

Just saying there are a few assholes in Ukraine is no reason to not help the enormous volumes of others in Ukraine that are not as that Time piece suggests.

On that standard, no one should help the US ever.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Looks like the Russian disinformation campaign is running full tilt today... again.

Just saying there are a few assholes in Ukraine is no reason to not help the enormous volumes of others in Ukraine that are not as that Time piece suggests.

On that standard, no one should help the US ever.
The standard of the left was that one flag at the Truckers protest meant that all truckers are Nazis.

Well now we’ll Just apply that to Ukraine. Putin is a hero like Trudeau for breaking this country up.
 

EMNofSeattle

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The noose is tightening around Mariupol

263E97B9-3994-4B4F-992D-56082120A717.jpeg
 

HangLow

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If he's not important to Ukrainians, then why did Viktor Yuschenko pass a decree making Stepan Bandera a national hero?
Was this not a political move to tap a fan base and win him more popularity? Or was he just randomly name-dropping?



Soviet history does not glorify the Nazis. It actually eulogizes Nazi victims.

People from the Far Right are not flocking from the around the world to go to Russia, just as jihadists from around the world are not flocking to go to Russia.
People from the Far Right are now flocking to Ukraine. Because the Far Right sees glory in killing Russians, just like the jihadists did.
But as they achieve success, the Far Right will later expand their gaze elsewhere, just like the jihadists did.
This is inevitable.

Zelensky should condemn the Far Right, and declare that they have no place in Ukrainian society. He should refuse to help them or take help from them in this war.

The Russian Army has now captured the Azov base in Donskoe:

o5qy2iwdxck81.jpg


Those guys are really heavy into the symbology, I've noticed. They're really building a mystique around it. Gonna need a new Indiana Jones movie, if this keeps up.
1647926853673.png
 

sanman

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Yuschenko the Nazi-lover


Former Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko’s decision to confer the title of Hero of Ukraine on nationalist leader Stepan Bandera on Jan. 22 has unleashed a storm of outrage inside and outside Ukraine. Critics accuse Yushchenko of whitewashing a Nazi-era fascist and betraying the ideals of the Orange Revolution that brought him to power.



 

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