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AZ Supreme Court, Gay wedding invitation decision

roguenuke

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If it’s so ambiguous millions of people would not say it says the exact same thing.
Actually, millions of people do not say it says the exact same thing. Most Christians disagree between themselves on what is meant by thousands of the passages within the Bible.
 

Lisa

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Except those are actual bible scriptures so theres that.
Where did Jesus say anything negative about guy people? If you claim to be a Christian then the teachings of Jesus are to take priority in how you act. If you ignore the teachings of Jesus and instead act on the Old Testament then you are a hypocrite because Jesus is said to have created a new covenant, so that wipes the slate clean from the past. You cannot ignore the teachings of Jesus and follow Jewish law instead while claiming to be a devout Chritian.
 

weaver2

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Yet you ignore the bigotry you are spouting in your post. why is that?

How is it not? Even the founders of this country recognized where rights come from.
they were bestowed by our creator, and government gains it's power from the governed.

There is nothing there that describes that a government should be a theocracy. as you suggested.
it does state the government should govern to the highest moral standard possible.
I didn't spout bigotry. I quoted the actual wording of the mission statements from evangelical organizations and when a statement says, "God has ordained all social institutions, including the government" and "Human government was instituted by God" or "stewards of God’s creation". you are not as I said, "talking about democracy". If a religious group is not describing a democracy then in all probability they are talking about a theocracy. The statements from those organizations are almost direct quotes from the 1536 writings of theologian John Calvin who stated that the purpose of government was to enforce God's laws. And guess who told you what God's laws were?

Wedding | MASTERPIECE CAKESHOP
yes i did. you evidently did and yes he still sales wedding cakes.
If what you read was the above link you did not read the text of the SC decision. This is the link to the actual text of the decision: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-111_j4el.pdf

Mr. Phillips does not sell wedding cakes in his store: "DENVER - The owner of a bakery in Lakewood said he will no longer sell wedding cakes after the Colorado Civil Rights Commission ruled he did discriminate against a gay couple when he refused to sell them a cake."
(from CBS News May 31, 2014)


Weddings are an event and now you are just being obtuse.
You said " you can't force a business to do events." Mr. Phillips was not doing the wedding event. He was only baking a cake for the event.
 
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Condor060

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Where did Jesus say anything negative about guy people?
Who was talking about Jesus? I posted scriptures from the bible. Try and keep up

If you claim to be a Christian then the teachings of Jesus are to take priority in how you act. If you ignore the teachings of Jesus and instead act on the Old Testament then you are a hypocrite because Jesus is said to have created a new covenant, so that wipes the slate clean from the past.
And who said I was a Christian. Oh thats right, you did. I never made that claim. You just made it up.

Yet another post with your assumptions gone wrong. How surprising.
 

Lisa

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Who was talking about Jesus? I posted scriptures from the bible. Try and keep up
This is exactly the mentality that I was referring to. You claim to be a follower of Jesus but you hypocritically treat the bible as 1200 pages of excuses to cherry-pick from and hide behind to defend your immoral behavior, despite the fact that Jesus said not to do it.

BTW, that statement will be part of my signature because it is the perfect illustration of a religious hypocrite.



And who said I was a Christian. Oh thats right, you did. I never made that claim. You just made it up.

Yet another post with your assumptions gone wrong. How surprising.
Why are you defending conservative Christian hypocrites if you aren't a Christian?


For the record, what exactly are your religious beliefs?
 

Condor060

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This is exactly the mentality that I was referring to. You claim to be a follower of Jesus
Now you're just lying. I HAVE NEVER STATED THAT EVER. Show me anything I posted that states that.

BTW, that statement will be part of my signature because it is the perfect illustration of a religious hypocrite.
Go ahead, thats what liars do. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Most everyone who post here regularly knows who I am. Show everyone just how ignorant one individual can be. Post it on your signature page. I DARE YOU. You don't have the guts. Please, make my day.

Why are you defending conservative Christian hypocrites if you aren't a Christian?
I never defended anything. I posted a scripture about how God stands on Gays.


For the record, what exactly are your religious beliefs?
For the record, NONE OF YOUR F**KING BUSINESS
 

The Mark

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Funny you use the word damned. ;)

Regardless, that is not philosophy. That's religious skepticism.
I suppose, in a way.

But I'm not simply skeptical of religions which say homosexuality is wrong. Rather, I'm positive they're wrong to believe that.
 

Aberration

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They can say that someone can't do business unless they purchase, at their expense, and make available personal protective equipment. Is this forcing labor?
No. That’s requiring their labor has the proper protection to do the job.


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Aberration

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Millions of people say the bible says different things. Why do you think there are so many splintered Christian sects - all using the same bible?
For the most part they argue over petty things. The disagreement is it enough for me to accept it being “ambiguous”.
 

Aberration

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Where did Jesus say anything negative about guy people? If you claim to be a Christian then the teachings of Jesus are to take priority in how you act. If you ignore the teachings of Jesus and instead act on the Old Testament then you are a hypocrite because Jesus is said to have created a new covenant, so that wipes the slate clean from the past. You cannot ignore the teachings of Jesus and follow Jewish law instead while claiming to be a devout Chritian.
Jesus said He did not come to end the Law. He came to fulfill it.
 

weaver2

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Jesus said He did not come to end the Law. He came to fulfill it.
Fulfilling the law could mean almost anything it just depends on the scribe that translated the phrase. Since Jesus said "whomever is without sin cast the first stone" I'm guessing that meant, "mind your own business and take care of your own sins". In today's world that translates as quit pretending you know what God thinks and stick to doing what you know ..... baking cakes.
 

Lisa

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Now you're just lying. I HAVE NEVER STATED THAT EVER. Show me anything I posted that states that.



Go ahead, thats what liars do. I wouldn't expect anything less from you. Most everyone who post here regularly knows who I am. Show everyone just how ignorant one individual can be. Post it on your signature page. I DARE YOU. You don't have the guts. Please, make my day.
I already did quote it.



I never defended anything. I posted a scripture about how God stands on Gays.
Youy posted Old testament but the new testament is different or it would not be differentiated.
The SCOTUS ruled unanimously against Piggie Park BBQ ween the same made the very same religious persecution claims because the racist owner was forced to serve black and interracial customers after the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. He cherry picked a passage form the bible in the same manner that you are doing that claims to oppose race mixing. He also said that doing so was a violation of his religious beliefs and therefore he could not be forced to do it because of the First Amendment. The SCOTUS wasn't impressed with his religious hypocrisy and ruled against him 9-0. Why shouldn't the current SCOTUS do the very same thing because bigots are also making the same transparent arguments that treating LGBT customers equally and fairly in business is a threat to their religious beliefs without showing any discussion of religion during the sale or even demands by their LGBT that are are offensive to rational people.

Your religious beliefs do not give you the right to decide what parts of the law you will obey nor do you get to filter the rights of others through your bible or any other religious book. Other people cannot be forced to obey your religious beliefs, especially in a public business that you opened voluntarily. People who seek to deny LGBT people equal rights in a public business are not different then bigots who operated "whites-only" businesses and claimed that the Bible opposed race mixing. You are both religious hypocrites because Jesus didn't teach his followers to do this. He taught them to do the opposite but those passages aren't what evangelicals Christians a find useful.




For the record, NONE OF YOUR F**KING BUSINESS
What are you hiding and why are you so defensive when asked a very simple question?
 

Lisa

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No. That’s requiring their labor has the proper protection to do the job.


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They are being paid a price that they determined for their labor so don't act like you are not being paid for what they are seeking. Religious hypocrites will always be hypocrites.
 

Condor060

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I already did quote it.
You said I claimed to be a follower of Jesus. Prove it or admit you are lying

Youy posted Old testament but the new testament is different or it would not be differentiated.
The SCOTUS ruled unanimously against Piggie Park BBQ ween the same made the very same religious persecution claims because the racist owner was forced to serve black and interracial customers after the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
Which has what to do with anything I posted. Now you're just rambling.

Your religious beliefs do not give you the right to decide what parts of the law you will obey nor do you get to filter the rights of others through your bible or any other religious book.
I don't have any religious beliefs and never claimed I did. ANother lie

Other people cannot be forced to obey your religious beliefs, especially in a public business that you opened voluntarily. People who seek to deny LGBT people equal rights in a public business are not different then bigots who operated "whites-only" businesses and claimed that the Bible opposed race mixing. You are both religious hypocrites because Jesus didn't teach his followers to do this. He taught them to do the opposite but those passages aren't what evangelicals Christians a find useful.
Blah blah blah blah, Has nothing to do with me or anything I posted. Still rambling

What are you hiding and why are you so defensive when asked a very simple question?
Because it's none of your business. THought I made that pretty clear
 

lwf

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No. That’s requiring their labor has the proper protection to do the job.


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Similarly, the government can require that a business serve the public in a non-discriminatory fashion, and can shut down a business that refuses to do so.
 

weaver2

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Similarly, the government can require that a business serve the public in a non-discriminatory fashion, and can shut down a business that refuses to do so.
The state and local government offer certain services to down town store owners. In exchange the owners have to serve all of the public all of their wares. Why is that such a difficult concept for religious conservatives to understand. And why do they think they are exempt.

If a Muslim opened a shop on the same street and discriminated against women with uncovered faces they would be the first down at city hall complaining about discrimination and demanding that the shop serve everyone regardless of their religion. Why is their religion any different?
 

rwee2000

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That only applies if it is seen as offensive to the general public. Invitations are all custom made, so do they plan to claim that very invitation is also offensive if they don't like the couple or the soiree in question? Can a vegan business owner claim that printing invitations to a BBQ are offensive? How is printing an invitation to a wedding deemed offensive? Do these religious people actually believe that if they refuse to point the invitation then they cannot prevent the wedding from happening? The couple isn't asking for their approval because they are printing them, nor are they invited.
Any business that does custom work had the RIGHT to refuse business for ANY or NO reason. Think about that, if by your logic if business MUST accept all work and cannot refuse it, then Wal-mart could be forced to make a Confederate Flag cake, an LGBT business could be forced to make anti-LGBT signs. [/QUOTE]This is debatable and the work in question must be seen as offensive on a level beyond what is socially accepted or everyday actions. The very core concept of capitalism is to make your customers money your own, and LGBT couples have more money than most because they don't have to get married because someone is pregnant and they aren't spending their money on kids. They are customers that most people would want because they have more money to spend.

[/QUOTE]Again if the items are already created, and for sale then they can't refuse to sell them. [/QUOTE] You do not have stock invitations and wedding cakes, so they must be printed to order at a price that is exorbitant. I wish those religious bigots would put a sign on the door so that people know that the owners are living in the 12th century and we won't frequent their establishment.
Do these religious loons also realize that the business will be boycotted when it gets out on Facebook and other internet platforms that they are refusing to serve people because of their hypocritical religious beliefs? Are they willing to lose their business due to those boycotts when rational people take their business elsewhere because they don't like to spend money at a business that refuses to treat others as equals, or will that just feed their religious persecution?[/QUOTE]

"Do these religious people actually believe that if they refuse to point the invitation then they cannot prevent the wedding from happening? The couple isn't asking for their approval because they are printing them, nor are they invited."

No they aren't preventing a wedding, what they are saying is that they cannot support said wedding as it goes against our beliefs.

But who gets to decide what is offensive to the public. I'm willing to bet that anything can be deemed offensive, the gay pride flag can be offensive, Nike found the Betsy Ross flag offensive. Should Nike be FORCED to put the Betsy Ross flag on shoes? Who gets to decide, if you can FORCE someone to create something, then Nike can be FORCED to put the Betsy Ross Flag on shoes, I can FORCE a Vegan business owner to print invitations to a BBQ.

I SUPPORT the right not to be forced to create something you disagree with, Nike has the RIGHT to refuse to put the Betsy Ross Flag on shoes and the RIGHT recall them, a Vegan owner has the RIGHT not to print invitations to a BBQ. And I support their right to do so.
 

rwee2000

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1.) im very aware of this case and the link doesnt answer my questions
2.) notice where it says "They had not been hired by any LGBTQ couple."
these two bigoted retards were scared and trying to be proactive and currently, in thier state they can practive the vile discrinitnon they want but this case wasnt spawned off of anything current. Like i said thats not what happened in this case/story/.

also what does the word "create" matter? that doesnt answer my question as to how do you know it wasnt something they had on display ready for sell?
3.) I was asking you but if you are stating you dont know now have an opinion thats fine by me and an answer in its self
4.) now, legality wise they factually are not and im happy to prove that fact.
5.) nope, sorry that reframe wont work. your walmart example was based on a flag. the over all discussion here is rights and laws protecting antidiscrimination. There's not rights or laws that protect makign a flag. Walmart is free to refuse as they want already and that is not analogous to rights and laws in various places that protect religion, gender, sexual orientation race etc.

next your other example of gay owners not making a antigay cake is also NOT like the discussion here again for the same reason mentioned in 6.
sorry but your examples were not analogous, they are already protected and do not fall under the various rights and or laws dealing with antidiscrimination in various places.

6.) again, yes they do 100% that is not in question, any business can refuse service to whoever they want for whatever reason as long as it doent violates rights or breaks the law. Sorry that doesn't change anything and your examples remain non-analogous.
I take it you didn't read the article
"Joanna Duka and Breanna Koski, owners of a small calligraphy company specializing in handwritten invitations, ...."

Handwritten invitations.

"how do you know it wasnt something they had on display ready for sell?"

So they already had handwritten invitations that had the names, address, date, time, already made up and suddenly they found out they were gay? Do you really think that?

But how do YOU know they have NEVER been hired by anyone who's LGBTQ? Yes it say LGBTQ couple but it doesn't say they won't serve someone who LGBTQ.

"...violates rights or breaks the law..."

What right was violated, the right to free speech or freedom of association, the right to marry, yes a city ordinance (law) was violated which is what the suit is over, can a city FORCE you to print (speech) something you disagree with, can the city FORCE you to create something you disagree with?

Notice they aren't stopping the wedding, they are refusing to make the invitations. So what rights are being violated?
 

AGENT J

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1.)I take it you didn't read the article
"Joanna Duka and Breanna Koski, owners of a small calligraphy company specializing in handwritten invitations, ...."
Handwritten invitations.

"how do you know it wasnt something they had on display ready for sell?"

2.)So they already had handwritten invitations that had the names, address, date, time, already made up and suddenly they found out they were gay? Do you really think that?

3.)But how do YOU know they have NEVER been hired by anyone who's LGBTQ? Yes it say LGBTQ couple but it doesn't say they won't serve someone who LGBTQ.

4.)What right was violated, the right to free speech or freedom of association, the right to marry, yes a city ordinance (law) was violated which is what the suit is over, can a city FORCE you to print (speech) something you disagree with, can the city FORCE you to create something you disagree with?
5.)Notice they aren't stopping the wedding, they are refusing to make the invitations. So what rights are being violated?
1.) not only have i read it i have posted it other places, so wrong assumption again

2.) nope but tell me why they cant have examples of the FONT, LAYOUT etc etc on display??? :) are you telling me they just tell all thier customers with no examples? If so again, how do we know that?
3.) Doesnt matter, doesnt change anything one bit. Just like if a person SERVES blacks but will only do it out of the back door or a person that HIRED women but will never promote them that is still discrimination
4.) did you quote the wrong post or something? you might want to read #2 in the post you quoted. No where did I say thier were rights violated in this case . . sweet irony. Please dont take things out of context, the numbers are there to help you for a reason . . because people will often try to mix things up.

to sort answer the question I think is in there, there is no force with civil rights, anti discinrint laws or PA laws (or ordinance)

5.) again notice i didnt say anything about stopping a wedding . . it will do you best to actually follow along to what was actually said and thats some pretty funny irony.
 

rwee2000

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1.) not only have i read it i have posted it other places, so wrong assumption again

2.) nope but tell me why they cant have examples of the FONT, LAYOUT etc etc on display??? :) are you telling me they just tell all thier customers with no examples? If so again, how do we know that?
3.) Doesnt matter, doesnt change anything one bit. Just like if a person SERVES blacks but will only do it out of the back door or a person that HIRED women but will never promote them that is still discrimination
4.) did you quote the wrong post or something? you might want to read #2 in the post you quoted. No where did I say thier were rights violated in this case . . sweet irony. Please dont take things out of context, the numbers are there to help you for a reason . . because people will often try to mix things up.

to sort answer the question I think is in there, there is no force with civil rights, anti discinrint laws or PA laws (or ordinance)

5.) again notice i didnt say anything about stopping a wedding . . it will do you best to actually follow along to what was actually said and thats some pretty funny irony.
1. Then you should understand they wanted custom work.

2. Sample aren’t finished product, again are you really trying to say they have invitations that say “John and Fred are happy to announce their wedding”

3. Yes it matters according to the law. They are refusing a job, the didn’t say they would refuse work from all LGBTQ people, they are refusing to do a job that they disagree with. This is easy all you need to do is ask “Could this business refuse to write invitations if this was a man and a woman?” for any or no reason?

4. and 5. Freedom of speech isn’t just restricted to the spoken word, in include many forms of communication including writing, so are you in favor or FORCING people to write something they disagree with notice you said as “any business can refuse service to whoever they want for whatever reason as long as it doent violates rights or breaks the law.” Notice you said rights, what about the business owners right? Which is why I added “Notice they aren't stopping the wedding, they are refusing to make the invitations. So what rights are being violated?” and notice you aren’t telling me which right of the “customers” are being violated? A business is refusing custom work which is something all business can do for any or NO reason.
 

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1. Then you should understand they wanted custom work.

2. Sample aren’t finished product
3.) , again are you really trying to say they have invitations that say “John and Fred are happy to announce their wedding”
4.) Yes it matters according to the law. They are refusing a job, the didn’t say they would refuse work from all LGBTQ people, they are refusing to do a job that they disagree with. This is easy all you need to do is ask “Could this business refuse to write invitations if this was a man and a woman?” for any or no reason?

5. Freedom of speech isn’t just restricted to the spoken word, in include many forms of communication including writing

6.), so are you in favor or FORCING people to write something they disagree with
7.) notice you said as “any business can refuse service to whoever they want for whatever reason as long as it doent violates rights or breaks the law.” Notice you said rights, what about the business owners right?
8.) Which is why I added “Notice they aren't stopping the wedding, they are refusing to make the invitations. So what rights are being violated?” and notice you aren’t telling me which right of the “customers” are being violated? A business is refusing custom work which is something all business can do for any or NO reason.
1.) and yet theres still no indication it was fully custom hence my question
2.) didnt say they were finished product, there you go making up BS again, strawman will not take away from what i said no matter how hard i try
3.) nope thats another thing YOU are making up in your head
4.) no it doesnt the law sees it the same WHEN that group is protected see my examples. They discriminating against gays that fact wont change
5.) hey look another stupid strawman that doesnt apply to anything i said its just a rant that you think supports you in some way and it doesnt

6.) wow do you ever stop with mad up claims? LMAO this has nothign to do with "me"
it has to do with civil rights, anti-discrimination and PA laws/ordinances when in place and NONE of those things are "force"
7.) correct, the businesses owners factual rights dont come into play. As a christians myself ZERO of my rights are infringed on by civil rights, anti-discrimination and PA laws/ordinances. ZERO. If you disagree . list them, you cant. In fact all those things protect me and my religions just like everybody else. I dont get special treatment i have to play by the same rules as everybody else.
8.) this strawman already failed, you repeating it wont make it work

Maybe post something actually on topic and that applies to things I actually said. Not extra stuff in your head and random talking points that way youll have better success. Maybe ask questions one at a time, it may help control random kneejerk meltdowns and allow for more honest discussion.
 

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1.) and yet theres still no indication it was fully custom hence my question
2.) didnt say they were finished product, there you go making up BS again, strawman will not take away from what i said no matter how hard i try
3.) nope thats another thing YOU are making up in your head
4.) no it doesnt the law sees it the same WHEN that group is protected see my examples. They discriminating against gays that fact wont change
5.) hey look another stupid strawman that doesnt apply to anything i said its just a rant that you think supports you in some way and it doesnt

6.) wow do you ever stop with mad up claims? LMAO this has nothign to do with "me"
it has to do with civil rights, anti-discrimination and PA laws/ordinances when in place and NONE of those things are "force"
7.) correct, the businesses owners factual rights dont come into play. As a christians myself ZERO of my rights are infringed on by civil rights, anti-discrimination and PA laws/ordinances. ZERO. If you disagree . list them, you cant. In fact all those things protect me and my religions just like everybody else. I dont get special treatment i have to play by the same rules as everybody else.
8.) this strawman already failed, you repeating it wont make it work

Maybe post something actually on topic and that applies to things I actually said. Not extra stuff in your head and random talking points that way youll have better success. Maybe ask questions one at a time, it may help control random kneejerk meltdowns and allow for more honest discussion.

I was going to answer point my point, but I know nothing I can say will change your mind. So in a nutshell, when two right collide as in this and the cake case it’s up to the courts to decide. While the supreme court has yet to rule on this, the question boils down to, can a business be forced to create custom work? Can a person be forced to do anything that violates their religion? Can a business refuse custom work for ANY reason? Can the government make you do forced labor (forced labor is any work or service which people are forced to do against their will, under threat of punishment) even if you are paid? Notice threat of punishment so it would be forced.

Notice I keep saying custom work, in the cake case has the cake been already baked and for sale to the public, then there would be no question that they should have sold it. But given they wanted a custom job, does the business have the RIGHT to refuse it for any or no reason.

Personally, if the law forces me to do something, I disagree with it will the worst job I have ever done. In this case it would look like a 2 year old on speed wrote them.

I have notice you won't answer what rights they have violated, despite me asking several times. As I see this is going nowhere, I'm probably not going to respond, I will read any response, but I know you'll never see my point, and you really have brought up anything to change my mind.
 

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1.) I was going to answer point my point, but I know nothing I can say will change your mind.
2.) So in a nutshell, when two right collide as in this and the cake case it’s up to the courts to decide.
3.) While the supreme court has yet to rule on this, the question boils down to, can a business be forced to create custom work?
4.)Can a person be forced to do anything that violates their religion?
5.) Can a business refuse custom work for ANY reason?
6.) Can the government make you do forced labor (forced labor is any work or service which people are forced to do against their will, under threat of punishment) even if you are paid? Notice threat of punishment so it would be forced.
7.)Notice I keep saying custom work, in the cake case has the cake been already baked and for sale to the public, then there would be no question that they should have sold it. But given they wanted a custom job, does the business have the RIGHT to refuse it for any or no reason.
8.) Personally, if the law forces me to do something, I disagree with it will the worst job I have ever done. In this case it would look like a 2 year old on speed wrote them.
9.)I have notice you won't answer what rights they have violated, despite me asking several times.
10.)As I see this is going nowhere, I'm probably not going to respond, I will read any response, but I know you'll never see my point, and you really have brought up anything to change my mind.
1.) another factually wrong assumption but if its easier for you to just make stuff up thats on you not me
2.) 100% CORRECT if there was an actual rights clash, many times there is not
3.) nope thats YOUR story and again has nothign to do with what i actually said.
4.) no
5.) yes as long as it doesnt violate rights and laws
6.) no but YOUR definition is NOT what forced labor is, you cant just make up your own definitions and expect to be taken seriously
7.) and again as i asked and you keep ignoring I dont know if this was truly custom. I simply asked the question and you posted a triggered unhinged meltdown.
8.) well good thing theres factually no force in any of these cases :shrug:
9.) correct because it was a made up strawman by you and NOT stated by me . . . cant answer something i never said. Ask it 500 more times youll get the same result based on your same mistake
10.,) good move if you cant post rational and honestly about things actually said and or simply ask questions instead of just make fruitless assumptions followed by illogical attacks you will continue to get the same results.

So again when you are ready to do any of that, feel free to let me know, if not your posts will simply be pointed out as the strawmen and meltdowns they are. Let me know, thanks!

Maybe try ONE question at a time . . . might be easier for your emotions.
 
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