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Attention Palestinian Supporters.... This is who you are supporting.

I do not condone genocidal racism, nor do I make excuses for it simply because it originates from a particular group of people.

I am safe in the knowledge that there are many out there who DON'T find such a rejection of genocidal racism to be abhorent as you find it.

As tight-assed as the mods can be on this section of the forum, it always amazes me that such remarks are not considered personal attacks

PS seriously, is accusing people of wanting to kill jews the only argument at your disposal?
 
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As tight-assed as the mods can be on this section of the forum, it always amazes me that such remarks are not considered personal attacks

What about "derp"?
 
What I find more disturbing is that people are unable to distinguish between support for the rights of a people and agreement with their leadership. I find the very notion of of dennying 'bad' nationalities the same rights as others highly disturbing and a bizzarely ethnocentric line of argument to take. Simply put, to support the rights of the Palestinian people is not to say they are somehow more virtous then the Israelis, it is simply to say that they have these rights regardless of the stances they take. I find you're views abhorent but that doenst mean I wish the same treatment the Palestinians have had to endure on you.

Yeah, and from what I've seen, NO American would put up with the way the Palestinians live.
 
Yeah, and from what I've seen, NO American would put up with the way the Palestinians live.

NO American would tolerate being treated the way the Palestinians have been treated, for 44 years.

They would rise up in violent revolution, and fight to the death to obtain their God-given rights.
 
Rather than condemn Palestinian men, women, and children, for reacting angrily to living in poverty and oppression, how about we instead work to alleviate them from said poverty and oppression. At which point, they'll be too busy being comfortable and enjoying not starving and suffering to bother hating and killing anyone.
 
Oh, so it must be a lie then... That makes it easy for you to avoid discussing the reality of what the Palestinian people believe.

That was a close call, wasn't it?

Well excuse me for being objective and digging for a source or evidence.
Just saying if this poll was taken by The Israel Project or the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion wouldn't it make sense to at least publish the poll?
 
As tight-assed as the mods can be on this section of the forum, it always amazes me that such remarks are not considered personal attacks

PS seriously, is accusing people of wanting to kill jews the only argument at your disposal?

What part of the linked article in the o.p. did you fail to comprehend? Stating that I oppose such genocidal racism is hardly a personal attack, especially inasmuch as such a view has been called "abhorent".
 
One can engineer a ME poll to indicate just about anything. Israelis do it. Palestinians do it. So does the UN and NGOs.

About the only ME poll I would trust to deliver an honest realism would be a Pew poll.
 
One can engineer a ME poll to indicate just about anything. Israelis do it. Palestinians do it. So does the UN and NGOs.

About the only ME poll I would trust to deliver an honest realism would be a Pew poll.

One could "engineer" false poll results, perhaps, but Stanley Greenberg, who oversaw this poll, has an impeccable reputation as a political pollster, and the results of the poll are consistent with polls taken as the 2000 talks were breaking down and as the 2008 talks were breaking down. While the results are disturbing to those who want to believe a sustainable final status agreement can be achieved in the near term, I see no reason to doubt they were arrived at honestly and accurately reflect current attitudes.
 
Mira, I refered to your twisted version of history not to your affection of Jews. If this is what Palestinian children grow up with its not a supprise if 70% of them grow up to think a good Jew is a dead Jew.

If I had stayed in the Middle East, you could have said so, but I've been living aboroad for the past 22 years and have had plenty of time to look at the matter from a different perspective.
Name one situation where the a people under occupation have loved and cherished their occupiers.
Name one situation where people have been treated as second class citizens in their own country, deprived of their basic human rights, turned into refugees, bombed and opressed and they ended up loving their oppressors.
 
One could "engineer" false poll results, perhaps, but Stanley Greenberg, who oversaw this poll, has an impeccable reputation as a political pollster, and the results of the poll are consistent with polls taken as the 2000 talks were breaking down and as the 2008 talks were breaking down. While the results are disturbing to those who want to believe a sustainable final status agreement can be achieved in the near term, I see no reason to doubt they were arrived at honestly and accurately reflect current attitudes.

I have to generally agree with this. The results are hardly surprising nor some type of revelation
 
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If I had stayed in the Middle East, you could have said so, but I've been living aboroad for the past 22 years and have had plenty of time to look at the matter from a different perspective.
Name one situation where the a people under occupation have loved and cherished their occupiers.
Name one situation where people have been treated as second class citizens in their own country, deprived of their basic human rights, turned into refugees, bombed and opressed and they ended up loving their oppressors.

As you frame the issue, the Palestinian Arabs can either love and cherish Israelis or blow them up. Can't there be a middle ground where the Palestinian Arabs say, "I want to understand the issues from your point of view and I want to try to get you to see them from our point of view, so no matter what we may have done to each other in the past, we can start with a fresh understanding of each other that will allow us to reach an agreement in which we will get some of what we want by agreeing that you get some of what you want"?
 
As you frame the issue, the Palestinian Arabs can either love and cherish Israelis or blow them up. Can't there be a middle ground where the Palestinian Arabs say, "I want to understand the issues from your point of view and I want to try to get you to see them from our point of view, so no matter what we may have done to each other in the past, we can start with a fresh understanding of each other that will allow us to reach an agreement in which we will get some of what we want by agreeing that you get some of what you want"?

has either side actually done that?
 
has either side actually done that?

I imagine there are some individuals on both sides who have done this. I put the words in the mouths of the Palestinian Arabs because hating Israel and morbidly dwelling on past grievances seems to be a cultural imperative for them and because they have nothing to bargain with other than an appeal to the better nature of Israelis.
 
As you frame the issue, the Palestinian Arabs can either love and cherish Israelis or blow them up. Can't there be a middle ground where the Palestinian Arabs say, "I want to understand the issues from your point of view and I want to try to get you to see them from our point of view, so no matter what we may have done to each other in the past, we can start with a fresh understanding of each other that will allow us to reach an agreement in which we will get some of what we want by agreeing that you get some of what you want"?

That would be perfect, but unfortunately humans don't behave that way. They become angry after being humiliated for decades. I don't understand why Palestinians are expected to behave like saints.

I'm a fervent believer that change comes from the people. I have always supported the idea of teaching the people the truth. Israelis should admit and accept the Nakba and Palestinians should understand the need for a homeland for the Jewish people. The Jerusalem Post article in the OP certainly doesn't help achieve that and the stupid songs taught to Palestinian children don't either.

Fortunately, there are some Israelis and Palestinians who work hand in hand to spread tolerance and the understanding of each other. They are usually accused of being traitors by one side and self-hating Jews by the other.
 
Hmm, this Greenberg seems to be an ok guy.

Looks like the Palestinians having some growing up to do.



...meanwhile, I shall continue to support the Palestinians in their legitimate and justified goal of a Palestinian State in most of the West Bank & Gaza, with parts of East Jerusalem as their capital.

and so tie it all together. Given the Palestinians fairly ... regressive views and their seeming incompatability with them achieving their legitimate and justified goal of a Palestinian State in most of the West Bank & Gaza (and please note I didn't throw the phrase in "mocking quotes", because I agree with you this is a legitimate and justified goal), how exactly do you see things progressing from here to there without first addressing the issue of what the Palestinians' actual objective is (using any independent state as a jumping off point to get the rest of Israel) and the means they are prepared to support to achieve this destructionist objective.

Cause where I sit, while I share your views on the "justness" of a sovereign state where Palestinians can exercise their rights to self determination, I just don't see how we get there within the framework of existing Palestinian society. Because Palestinians' sovereignty must not be on the backs of those they have been trying to destroy for so long, and for so long as their goal really is the destruction of Israel rather than their own independent state, they can get nothing.

But all of this makes very clear - the obsticle to peace is the same now as it was in 2000 - the Palestinians are not prepared to accept an indeoendent state if that involves relinquishing any ability or any right to further pursue the destruction of Israel. That, combined with the cult of death they worked so hard to inculcate into the Oslo war generation virtually guarantees the conflcit will continue, regardless of any Israeli actions, positive or negative (whether concessions or settlments or proposed agreements or anything else).

And this is why it is so frustrating for those who are not anti-Israeli in all this. Because it is plain as day what the problem is here and what needs 5to be done to fix it. Yet none of the attention of the world or the policy makers or the charttering classes (ourselves included) seem to pay even a modicum of attention to this issue and how it impacts on their analysis of where the pressure needs to be, what the next action should be, how the next process should unfold.

If you want to know why the "peace process" has failed for decades it's this: Making up reality and then devising a policy course that would allow for the objective you want when implemented within that reality does not work where the reality you create is fundamentally different from reality as it exists.

And to ignore the results and implications of this (and similar) poles is to deny reality. Any "plan" based on a reality where this pole does not reflect Palestinian attitudes is doomed to failure.
 
That would be perfect, but unfortunately humans don't behave that way. They become angry after being humiliated for decades. I don't understand why Palestinians are expected to behave like saints.

I'm a fervent believer that change comes from the people. I have always supported the idea of teaching the people the truth. Israelis should admit and accept the Nakba and Palestinians should understand the need for a homeland for the Jewish people. The Jerusalem Post article in the OP certainly doesn't help achieve that and the stupid songs taught to Palestinian children don't either.

Fortunately, there are some Israelis and Palestinians who work hand in hand to spread tolerance and the understanding of each other. They are usually accused of being traitors by one side and self-hating Jews by the other.

In fact, people do behave this way, not because they are saints but because they are rational, self serving people who understand that if they allow their actions to be ruled by their emotions they are likely to create nakba after nakba for themselves.

If peaceful relations between the two peoples and a sustainable final status agreement are the goals, then the relevant "truths" are not about the past but about the present and future needs of each side. Even setting aside emotionally charged issues such as Jerusalem, the fact is that there are such huge impediments to the Palestinian Arabs being able to deliver the security guarantees every nation demands of its neighbors that while self government within defined borders may be achievable in the near term, full sovereignty is not until such time that a stable, unified Palestinian Arab government is willing and able to provide such security.

This is a truth from an Israeli perspective, and the Palestinian Arabs can either choose to see it as a humiliation to rage against or as a problem within their own society that needs to be fixed before they can reasonably expect any Israeli government to entrust the lives and welfare of its citizens to Palestinian Arab security guarantees by fully withdrawing its troops and agreeing to full sovereignty for a Palestinian state.
 
If I had stayed in the Middle East, you could have said so, but I've been living aboroad for the past 22 years and have had plenty of time to look at the matter from a different perspective.
Name one situation where the a people under occupation have loved and cherished their occupiers.
Name one situation where people have been treated as second class citizens in their own country, deprived of their basic human rights, turned into refugees, bombed and opressed and they ended up loving their oppressors.

Japan.

Just saying.
 
In response to the OP, there have been many polls done in Israel that show a great many Israelis feel racism in official govt. policy towards Arabs is ok.

Regardless, its still ok to support Israel's right to exist. Just as it is ok to support a Palestinian state in most of the WB, Gaza, and parts of East Jerusalem.
 
I do not condone genocidal racism, nor do I make excuses for it simply because it originates from a particular group of people.

I am safe in the knowledge that there are many out there who DON'T find such a rejection of genocidal racism to be abhorent as you find it.

Once again, please point out ONE ****ING TIME when I have condoned genocidal racism. The fact you are are allowed to make these libellous statements without backing them up, and without the slightest bit of consequence shows youe everything you need to know about the filthy hypocrites who run this forum.
 
Once again, please point out ONE ****ING TIME when I have condoned genocidal racism. The fact you are are allowed to make these libellous statements without backing them up, and without the slightest bit of consequence shows youe everything you need to know about the filthy hypocrites who run this forum.

I made a statement criticizing the way people support a group with full knowledge that said group endorsed genocide. You replied that such a view is abhorrent. Those are the facts of the matter.

I reject the majority Palestinian views as illustrated in the o.p. You have not only failed to criticize these views in any way, shape or form, but you have called me abhorrent for doing so. This does not mean that you actually support genocide per se, and I have not accused you of such. I only pointed out the truth of the matter.
 
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I made a statement criticizing the way people support a group with full knowledge that said group endorsed genocide. You replied that such a view is abhorrent. Those are the facts of the matter.
Supporting the rights of a group is separate from supporting their views. This is an important distinction that you seem unable to make in any topic having to do with the Palestinians. I imagine you support the rights of the Westboro Baptist Church and that you do not support their views. The distinction is the same.
 
I made a statement criticizing the way people support a group with full knowledge that said group endorsed genocide. You replied that such a view is abhorrent. Those are the facts of the matter.

I reject the majority Palestinian views as illustrated in the o.p. You have not only failed to criticize these views in any way, shape or form, but you have called me abhorrent for doing so. This does not mean that you actually support genocide per se, and I have not accused you of such. I only pointed out the truth of the matter.

I made no statement at all on the validity of the Hamas charter in this thread (which I have rejected in no uncertain terms on many occasions in other threads)
what I find abhorrent is the insinuation that the views should have any bearing on the rights of the rest of the Palestinian people, these are self evident and shouldn't be denied even if 99% of Palestinians had a picture of Adolf Hitler on their walls). I think the problem here is your warped focus on nationality and not on the rights of human beings and individuals.
 
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