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Attack on Christmas

Mod Note

Moved thread to Religion and Philosophy forum.


/Mod Note
 
The attack on Xmas must not be working to well because retailers expect a record year in Xmas shopping according to today's news. I din't think there is any danger in having Xmas disappear for the forseeable futre.
 
Inuyasha said:
The attack on Xmas must not be working to well because retailers expect a record year in Xmas shopping according to today's news. I din't think there is any danger in having Xmas disappear for the forseeable futre.


To me Christms has nothing to do about how well retailers do...Its abourt the birth of Jesus Christ.........
 
Navy Pride said:
To me Christms has nothing to do about how well retailers do...Its abourt the birth of Jesus Christ.........

Well then Damn....I say we move it to June.....we dont have enough Holidays in June....and its much warmer:



Q. On what date was Jesus born?

A. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (Third Edition, 1998) in its article on "Christmas" details the history of the dating of Christmas. The article points out that the time of Christ's birth was a matter of speculation and even dispute in the early centuries of of the Christian church. The celebration of Christ's birth on a specific day did not become a general practice until the 4th century. The earliest mention of December 25 is in a calendar representing Roman practice of the year 336, the date probably chosen to oppose the pagan feast of the sun. Other traditions of the dating were present, including the Eastern tradition of connecting Christ's birth with Epiphany on January 6 (a practice still followed in the Eastern churches).

The Scriptures, of course, do not give us a precise date for Christ's birth and therefore it must always remain a man of conjecture. It is not a doctrinal matter.



On second thought....How about September....early in the month...(dont want to mess with Halloween/Samhain)
 
Navy Pride said:
To me Christms has nothing to do about how well retailers do...Its abourt the birth of Jesus Christ.........

It may not be that TO YOU but to many many and I MEAN MANY it does. There is no denying that. Beside the idea of giving presents IS tied to religion. The Three Kings and the others who brought presents to the Christ Child in the manger. This is part of the religious significance of Christmas, all that is good in man the idea of GIVING. I you want to deny that fine but don't tell me i have to follow you on that in order to be a good Christian. No way. I will keep giving presents to those in my family and my friends.
 
There's 2 Christmases in this country: 1 celebrating the birth of Christ and the other which is a capitalist/hallmark holiday where Santa Claus (average American) makes (buys) gifts and delivers them under a tree. The ACLU and their supporting lot want all traces of Christ removed from the holiday including the name CHRISTmas so we can have things like a "Friendship Tree" or a "Holiday Tree."

Why should the minority be allowed to change our traditions? We've done just dandy celebrating them all these years.

Keep in mind that the 1st ammendment protects a "freedom of religion", NOT "freedom from religion" as many seem to believe.
 
Interesting.

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn055/christmas_evidence.htm

I read somewhere Jesus's actual birth would be in mid october (by the Gregorian calendar). I need to find this again, I believe it is in one of my old theology books.

Anyway, scholars and a lot of Christian leaders agree Decemeber 25 is not the actual date of Christs birth. It is not the day we celebrate but the knowledge that we recieved from the birth and life of Christ.
 
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Just celebrate Yule.....then you can smile, be happy.....and laught at the people who trampled Gramma at Walmart.



The History & Lore of

Christmas, The Winter Solstice, and Yule
Holly Basket
boughs of holly


DEC-22: The Winter Solstice occurs on this day at 01:14 UT. It is celebrated by followers of many Aboriginal and Neopagan religions around the world. It is called Yule by Wiccans, who consider it one of their four minor Sabbats. Followers of Shinto observe Tohji-taisai, the Grand Ceremony of the Winter Solstice. Many Atheists in the U.S. also celebrate the solstice, which is the shortest day and longest night of the year.

DEC-25: Celebration of Christmas, the nominal birth date of Jesus Christ, by the western churches which follow the Gregorian calendar. Most theologians believe that Jesus was born between 4 and 7 BCE, perhaps in the fall.

Origins of solstice celebration

The seasons of the year are caused by the 23.5º tilt of the earth's axis. Because the earth is rotating like a top or gyroscope, it points in a fixed direction continuously -- towards a point in space near the North Star. But the earth is also revolving around the sun. During half of the year, the southern hemisphere is more exposed to the sun than is the northern hemisphere. During the rest of the year, the reverse is true. At noontime in the Northern Hemisphere the sun appears high in the sky during summertime and low in the sky during winter. The time of the year when the sun reaches its maximum elevation occurs on the day with the greatest number of daylight hours. This is called the summer solstice, and is typically on JUN-21 -- the first day of summer. "Solstice" is derived from two Latin words: "sol" meaning sun, and "sistere," to cause to stand still. The lowest elevation occurs about DEC-21 and is the winter solstice -- the first day of winter, when the night time hours are maximum.

In pre-historic times, winter was a very difficult time for Aboriginal people in the northern latitudes. The growing season had ended and the tribe had to live off of stored food and whatever animals they could catch. The people would be troubled as the life-giving sun sank lower in the sky each noon. They feared that it would eventually disappear and leave them in permanent darkness and extreme cold. After the winter solstice, they would have reason to celebrate as they saw the sun rising and strengthening once more. Although many months of cold weather remained before spring, they took heart that the return of the warm season was inevitable. The concept of birth and or death/rebirth became associated with the winter solstice. The Aboriginal people had no elaborate instruments to detect the solstice. But they were able to notice a slight elevation of the sun's path within a few days after the solstice -- perhaps by DEC-25. Celebrations were often timed for about the 25th.

An Abbreviated History

The history of Christmas dates back over 4000 years. Many of our Christmas traditions were celebrated centuries before the Christ child was born. The 12 days of Christmas, the bright fires, the yule log, the giving of gifts, carnivals(parades) with floats, carolers who sing while going from house to house, the holiday feasts, and the church processions can all be traced back to the early Mesopotamians.

Many of these traditions began with the Mesopotamian celebration of New Years. The Mesopotamians believed in many gods, and as their chief god - Marduk. Each year as winter arrived it was believed that Marduk would do battle with the monsters of chaos. To assist Marduk in his struggle the Mesopotamians held a festival for the New Year. This was Zagmuk, the New Year's festival that lasted for 12 days.

The Mesopotamian king would return to the temple of Marduk and swear his faithfulness to the god. The traditions called for the king to die at the end of the year and to return with Marduk to battle at his side.

To spare their king, the Mesopotamians used the idea of a "mock" king. A criminal was chosen and dressed in royal clothes. He was given all the respect and privileges of a real king. At the end of the celebration the "mock" king was stripped of the royal clothes and slain, sparing the life of the real king.

The Persians and the Babylonians celebrated a similar festival called the Sacaea. Part of that celebration included the exchanging of places, the slaves would become the masters and the masters were to obey.

Early Europeans believed in evil spirits, witches, ghosts and trolls. As the Winter Solstice approached, with its long cold nights and short days, many people feared the sun would not return. Special rituals and celebrations were held to welcome back the sun.

In Scandinavia during the winter months the sun would disappear for many days. After thirty-five days scouts would be sent to the mountain tops to look for the return of the sun. When the first light was seen the scouts would return with the good news. A great festival would be held, called the Yuletide, and a special feast would be served around a fire burning with the Yule log. Great bonfires would also be lit to celebrate the return of the sun. In some areas people would tie apples to branches of trees to remind themselves that spring and summer would return.

The ancient Greeks held a festival similar to that of the Zagmuk/Sacaea festivals to assist their god Kronos who would battle the god Zeus and his Titans.

The Roman's celebrated their god Saturn. Their festival was called Saturnalia which began the middle of December and ended January 1st. With cries of "Jo Saturnalia!" the celebration would include masquerades in the streets, big festive meals, visiting friends, and the exchange of good-luck gifts called Strenae (lucky fruits).

The Romans decked their halls with garlands of laurel and green trees lit with candles. Again the masters and slaves would exchange places.

"Jo Saturnalia!" was a fun and festive time for the Romans, but the Christians though it an abomination to honor the pagan god. The early Christians wanted to keep the birthday of their Christ child a solemn and religious holiday, not one of cheer and merriment as was the pagan Saturnalia.

But as Christianity spread they were alarmed by the continuing celebration of pagan customs and Saturnalia among their converts. At first the Church forbid this kind of celebration. But it was to no avail. Eventually it was decided that the celebration would be tamed and made into a celebration fit for the Christian Son of God.

Some legends claim that the Christian "Christmas" celebration was invented to compete against the pagan celebrations of December. The 25th was not only sacred to the Romans but also the Persians whose religion Mithraism was one of Christianity's main rivals at that time. The Church eventually was successful in taking the merriment, lights, and gifts from the Saturanilia festival and bringing them to the celebration of Christmas.

The exact day of the Christ child's birth has never been pinpointed. Traditions say that it has been celebrated since the year 98 AD. In 137 AD the Bishop of Rome ordered the birthday of the Christ Child celebrated as a solemn feast. In 350 AD another Bishop of Rome, Julius I, choose December 25th as the observance of Christmas.
 
tryreading said:
We are not, like it or not, a Christian nation. Only a Christian would say the above, which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But you are wrong.
I actually agree.
Calling this country a Christian nation is an insult to true Christianity.
We are far from being a Christian nation...and it probably never will be.
Sure, a lot of people believe in God...but unfortunatly thats as far is it goes.
CHristianity is a lifestyle, and most people who believe in God don't live it.
So again, calling this a Christian nation is a complete insult.
 
I heard a mention today on a news show (Fox news, I don't know which show) about Jerry Fallwell threatening a lawsuit against the city of Boston for calling a public Christmas tree a "holiday tree". What utter nonsense on both sides.

It all comes down to a word, that's all. "Christmas" is just a word, it won't bite you. Why call a christmas tree a holiday tree when everybody damn well knows it's a christmas tree? I'm an atheist, and I can tell you, I am definitely not offended. Main street in my small town is filled with displays this time of year: mangers, reindeer, christmas trees, etc. And yet, strangely enough, this does not send me into apoplexy. The lighted displays against a dark sky are rather nice to look at, actually. I have even been known to :gasp: drive by places just to look at the lights :eek: Yet somehow, I manage to not be offended by it at all!

Do we live in a Christian country: yes, we do. Are you forced to be a part of the Christian religion or having your rights infringed upon by displays of christianity: no. Think of it like someone living in Hawaii being offended by other people in the area wearing flowered shirts. A lot of people are wearing flowered shirts, and even though you can't get around having to see people dressed in such clothing, nobody is forcing you to wear the same kind of shirt. Now suppose a small group of people become highly offended at the fashion disasters they have to look at on a daily basis and begin throwing around lawsuits to force people to stop wearing flowered shirts in public, lest the gaudiness should burn someones eyes. If this sounds silly to you, then imagine what the whole argument over christmas (and yes, it is called "christmas", so get over it.) sounds like to me. Just a bunch of people getting all upset over nothing more than words.

It's the christmas season, enjoy it. Get together with family, friends, co-workers...exchange gifts, eat a good meal together, sit and talk a while. And stop getting upset over what other people are doing that may mean nothing to you but so much to them. If you're not a Christian, fine: celebrate anyway. And may everyone finally figure out that life is too short for arguing over and being offended by words and images instead of just getting on with your life and letting others enjoy theirs.
 
teenonfire4him77 said:
I actually agree.
Calling this country a Christian nation is an insult to true Christianity.
We are far from being a Christian nation...and it probably never will be.
Sure, a lot of people believe in God...but unfortunatly thats as far is it goes.
CHristianity is a lifestyle, and most people who believe in God don't live it.
So again, calling this a Christian nation is a complete insult.
And calling Saudi Arabia a Muslim nation is an insult to Islam. And calling Israel a Jewish nation is an insult to Judaism...this has to be one of the-at least top 5, if not the most-Christian religion dominated countries on the planet. We are the world capital of protestant Christianity, there's no getting around that. Every country in the world associates this nation with the Christian faith, every one. We are a christian nation, in the eyes of the world and of most of our citizens. I don't see any way that can be reasonably argued against, those facts are too clear. Now, like I said in my previous post, I am an athiest. But I also live in the greatest country in the history of the world and am happy with that. If it is a country run by christians, then so be it. I don't have a problem with it, as long as they leave me be, which they do.
 
teenonfire4him77 said:
I actually agree.
Calling this country a Christian nation is an insult to true Christianity.
We are far from being a Christian nation...and it probably never will be.
Sure, a lot of people believe in God...but unfortunatly thats as far is it goes.
CHristianity is a lifestyle, and most people who believe in God don't live it.
So again, calling this a Christian nation is a complete insult.

That depends on how you are using the word Christian. If you are using it in the better sense of the word there probably isn't a "Christian" nation in the world even if it has a population where 98% describe themselves as "Christians". If you are talking about a life style or a cultural background, the word works. Under Mussolini Italy described itself as a 98% Catholic (universal) nation. Was it? Of course not but it's background was centered in the Catholic Church a Christan organization. Culturally Italy was a Catholic nation, in practice it was far from upholding the better aspects of the Catholic philosophy and culture.
 
Gibberish said:
Interesting.

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn055/christmas_evidence.htm

I read somewhere Jesus's actual birth would be in mid october (by the Gregorian calendar). I need to find this again, I believe it is in one of my old theology books.

Anyway, scholars and a lot of Christian leaders agree Decemeber 25 is not the actual date of Christs birth. It is not the day we celebrate but the knowledge that we recieved from the birth and life of Christ.
December 25th was originally a pagan celebration called Saturnalia which commemorated the birth of the sun god. 12-25 is not proven to be Jesus' birthday.

I think we should change Christmas day to Saturnalia Day....most people will be so dumbfounded they won't know what to say.
 
The Christmas tree is the most recognizable symbol of the holiday season. It's just a winter solstice symbol. The idea of Christmas is not biblical at all. It's just a cleverley derived collection of ancient winter solstice customs and promotions used to lift people's spirits and rake in the dough for big businesses.
 
26 X World Champs said:
December 25th was originally a pagan celebration called Saturnalia which commemorated the birth of the sun god. 12-25 is not proven to be Jesus' birthday.

Yup. http://www.ldolphin.org/xmas.html

Yes Saturnlia, Many attempts were devised to outlaw and forbid this pagan practice. The church decided that they would change the face of the Christian practice. They were trying to lure the pagans into the Christian fold.

I think we should change Christmas day to Saturnalia Day....most people will be so dumbfounded they won't know what to say.

I don't care what they change it too, I still won't participate in it. It's nothing special, it's simply another day that the earth rotates around the sun.:2razz:
 
Inuyasha said:
That depends on how you are using the word Christian. If you are using it in the better sense of the word there probably isn't a "Christian" nation in the world even if it has a population where 98% describe themselves as "Christians". If you are talking about a life style or a cultural background, the word works. Under Mussolini Italy described itself as a 98% Catholic (universal) nation. Was it? Of course not but it's background was centered in the Catholic Church a Christan organization. Culturally Italy was a Catholic nation, in practice it was far from upholding the better aspects of the Catholic philosophy and culture.
I wasnt using the world Christian as in numbers that people claim. I am using it basing it in our values and morals (or lack there of) and the great hypocracy among many Christian Churches in America.
Basing it on that, America does not uphold it, and because of that, this is why it is so messed up. I am not saying that we should have a Theorcracy, i mean look in the book of Judges(haha). I am saying that right now, Taking God out of anything in teh first place, was the first problem, there is more on this, but thats a whole nother thread.
America, even though it was founded by Protestant-Christians, is not Christian, by a long shot.
 
galenrox said:
And thus it's a religious holiday

I've noticed you chose not to answer my questions on how you would react if your school district decided to give two weeks off for various other religions' holidays.
I'm fine with schools giving all major religious holidays a day off, but what if they started calling winter break "Solstice Break"? I mean, solstices are very important holidays to Pagans, and the solstice falls under the time that kids get off. What if it was called Chanukah break?
What if they started giving two weeks off for Muhammed's birthday, and called it Muhammedmas break?

Pagans and everyone else get the holidays off................If you don't believe in Christmas go to work...........
 
Navy Pride said:
Pagans and everyone else get the holidays off................If you don't believe in Christmas go to work...........

Why is Christs birth on the Winter Solstice?
 
Navy Pride said:
Pagans and everyone else get the holidays off................If you don't believe in Christmas go to work.
I find your posts in this thread outrageously offensive! To suggest that there's an "attack on Christmas" is ridiculous and all together LAME!

Every radio station, every TV station, every newspaper is swamped with Christmas carols, Christmas Ads, Christmas stories, every single day. It is insanity to suggest that Christmas is threatened with disappearing from the public domain.

The fact that you have already admitted starting this thread on lies, that you literally made up facts to support your "attack on Xmas" speaks volume for you and your personal agenda.

Everywhere one looks they see Christmas, no less today than years past. Either your so insecure in your religion, to the point that you need to be reminded of it just to feel safe, or your so determined to make everyone exactly like you (which is a perverted form of COMMUNISM, it's definitely not being American) or your just plain stupid. I leave it up to the other members of this community to judge you on this thread.

It is so incredible that anyone would have the balls to whine about an "attack on Christmas" in this country. It is also incredibly arrogant or just plain dumb to write this Navy Pride:
Navy Pride said:
If you don't believe in Christmas go to work.
How dare you? I must state that these 8 words clearly define exactly who Navy Pride is and what he thinks of his fellow Americans. I read it as the epitome of "your either with us or against us."

Attack on Christmas! BULLSHIT! This thread is an ATTACK on INTELLIGENCE & MORALITY.
 
Lucidthots said:
Why is Christs birth on the Winter Solstice?

Who cares? Let's eat-
 
Lucidthots said:
Why is Christs birth on the Winter Solstice?
Christ wasn't born at the time we celebrate Christmas, which falls near the time of the Winter Solstice.
Why do we celebrate it then? I don't know that.
ITs widley known that its not the time of Christ birth tho.
 
teenonfire4him77 said:
Christ wasn't born at the time we celebrate Christmas, which falls near the time of the Winter Solstice.
Why do we celebrate it then? I don't know that.
ITs widley known that its not the time of Christ birth tho.

Early Christians took the Pagan holiday to help Pagans cope with the transition from Paganism to Christianity.
 
Here are a couple more examples as to why i believe this nation is a "Christian" based nation.

In the area where i live there are 62 channels on TV. 24 of them have at least one hour of religious programing a week and most more. Six of those channels are dedicated exclusively to the Christian religion. That is found nowhere else in the world.

We also see more of Falwell or Robertson strepping into politics on TV and radio. This is because there is an audience for them. A BIG one.

Why is it that when speaking of politics Americans more than anyone resort to quoting scripture to explain and define their position?
 
Inuyasha said:
Here are a couple more examples as to why i believe this nation is a "Christian" based nation.

In the area where i live there are 62 channels on TV. 24 of them have at least one hour of religious programing a week and most more. Six of those channels are dedicated exclusively to the Christian religion. That is found nowhere else in the world.

We also see more of Falwell or Robertson strepping into politics on TV and radio. This is because there is an audience for them. A BIG one.

Why is it that when speaking of politics Americans more than anyone resort to quoting scripture to explain and define their position?

Pat Robertson actually stepped out of politics, after an embarrassment:

During the 1988 race, Robertson assured voters that God had told him he was going to win. He dropped out after placing third in the South Carolina primary with 19 percent of the vote. Not long after that, he said God had told him to run again in 1992, saying, "That is His plan for me and for this nation," but Robertson did not seek the presidency again.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3944/is_200402/ai_n9369028

As far as TV indicating anything, where I live situation comedies dominate the air waves. Does this mean we are a 'comedy' nation too? Seriously.
 
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