Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

[bongsaway]

I agree, it's tough. And yet, cooperation has always been essential to our survival as a species. Traditionally "cooperation" has been achievable through coercion. Less so now. I'm not trying to figure out how to reconcile ideologies. I, personally, believe that to be impossible. Rather, I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile people, despite their holding differing ideologies.

Do you have any thoughts on how this could be done?

Believe in yourself and treat others the way you wish to be treated.

 

[OlNate]

But no gay folks?

As a point of clarification, this is not a universal attitude. I belong to the Lutheran church. We welcome gay folks to service, we marry them, and ordain them. We are not the only denomination to do this.

Not that there isn't persecution of gays within other denominations within the greater church...this is just to point out that a generalization cannot be made here.

 

[OlNate]

Believe in yourself and treat others the way you wish to be treated.

Ok...so...with respect and caution... Are you saying that Christians should hold the opinion that atheists are the bane of humanity?

 

[nota bene]

Do you think the problem lies entirely with them, or does our response to them further the division?

I say meet all your brothers and sisters in love (and keep working on those "timbers").

 

[OlNate]

Probably works both ways...I know I get frustrated when a person mocks and ridicules what I hold dear or I explain something over and over to a person and he just doesn't get it, or just doesn't wanna get it...patience is definitely a fruitage of the spirit I need to work on...

I would suggest you are correct...while instantly admitting that I face the same challenges - though, as you know, my friend, I experience this with both atheists and theists. A similar thread to this one could certainly be put up on how to reconcile the denominations or sects of any particular religion.

 

[Cynical]

Starting Point: This is NOT a thread about the existence of God, or gods. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. In fact, I'm going to try to do my best to stay out of this one, outside of the initial question. Not making any promises, but that's the intent. I'm posting this to learn something. At most I'll ask for clarification, if required.

Rather, this is a discussion around what it would take to bridge the gap we see here, between atheists and theists. We see a lot of angry posting here, that goes well beyond the academic debate of "real or not real", from both sides. Is there a way to deal with that anger, or is this a manifestation of the overly combative climate we find ourselves in generally?

Of course I have my own thoughts, but I'm trying to leave this wide open.

Important note: It is important to acknowledge that not all atheists and theists fall into the "angry" category. Many folks are happy to live and let live, irrespective of what camp they have landed in. If you are not "angry", which we'll define for this thread as going out of your way to disrespect someone for their lack of belief or belief as a starting point, then I am not attempting to say that you are.

So...if you're "angry" at atheists, what would it take your to not be? And, if you're "angry" at theists, what would it take to not be?

There are many reasons for this. It is an issue that many people are passionate about. Also when people engage in debate there is this innate desire to prove the other person wrong (which in an of itself begs the question why, but I digress). But this is not just the case when it comes to God or religion, people are just as passionate if not more when it comes to politics. Part of the fundamental issue in particularly for the atheist (or non-theist) is that they don't want someone else telling them ow to live their life. The same is the case when it comes to politics, most people don't want some self-righteous politician telling them how to live their life.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Look at the world we live in...do you think there can ever be a paradise, with all inhabitants living in peace, the way things are...the way people are?

Not likely, but much of that conflict is due to religious differences. There are basically three ways for folks to treat each other: cooperation, indifference or conflict.

 

[bongsaway]

Oh, I think it goes both ways in here. You can do your own research through the thread history, I won't spend time in here calling anyone out specifically.

So, in a thread about reconciliation, what do you think your "bane of humanity" opinion adds? You've dropped that twice today, in two threads trying to understand why we fight so much.

I've said it because that's how I feel. Any thread about religion is at some point going to devolve into an us against them thing and it will never change. How many wars and how many people have been and still are being killed over religious beliefs? Look back at the history of the church in the middle ages and the inquisition. It's always been a mess and controlled by men. Heretics everywhere. The people who fled europe because of religious oppression, what did they do? Came to america and either tried to 'convert' the savages to their beliefs, or kill them if they didn't.

All over a book and an entity nobody can see.

 

[OlNate]

I say meet all your brothers and sisters in love (and keep working on those "timbers").

Hi, bene.

So, I'm asking questions of everyone here, some kinda tough...but first fully admitting my own faults. None of us are perfect, as we know.

A while ago we discussed silent prayer outside of abortion clinics. How do you think that plays with what you've said? Do you think that, as Christians, we also have room to improve in the whole "meet your brothers and sisters in love" thing? Especially those who do not share our beliefs?

I'm not looking to turn this into a discussion about abortion, merely methodology.

 

[ttwtt78640]

So, why do you think it's not working? I mean, the golden rule seems to be widely abandoned, does it not? Not just in this context, but nearly every one I can think of. How do we make our way back to that?

See post #57.

 

[OlNate]

I've said it because that's how I feel. Any thread about religion is at some point going to devolve into an us against them thing and it will never change. How many wars and how many people have been and still are being killed over religious beliefs? Look back at the history of the church in the middle ages and the inquisition. It's always been a mess and controlled by men. Heretics everywhere. The people who fled europe because of religious oppression, what did they do? Came to america and either tried to 'convert' the savages to their beliefs, or kill them if they didn't.

All over a book and an entity nobody can see.

So, per the bolded, you do not think reconciliation is possible? That we will never be able to respect one another, due to our differing beliefs? I ask for clarification, because I've known many theists and atheists for whom this was absolutely not a hurdle. What is the difference between them and you?

 

[Daisy]

Not likely, but much of that conflict is due to religious differences. There are basically three ways for folks to treat each other: cooperation, indifference or conflict.

But is that true peace? How else can true peace be brought about...peace that will last forever...people living in complete harmony with one another and with our home, the earth? Is our way really working or do we need a Higher Power to bring that all about? Only then could all humans ever have the same goal in mind...

 

[OlNate]

See post #57.

Read it. So, how do we avoid option number three? Or do you think it's unavoidable?

 

[bongsaway]

As I said, this is not a thread about whether or not God, or gods, is real. I accept that you don't believe, and I do not feel compelled to try to change your mind.

This is about getting two groups of people, with very different opinions, to stop fighting. Is proving my beliefs are real the only way you'll accept my right to hold them, unharassed? Should I wait for you to prove the non-existence of God before I accept your decision to withhold belief?

OlNate, the only time I discuss religion is on here, it has no part of my everyday life. The two groups of people we are discussing will never agree and it will always be volatile between us. I like your thought that you wish there was something we could agree on but it just ain't gonna' happen.

 

[Daisy]

I've said it because that's how I feel. Any thread about religion is at some point going to devolve into an us against them thing and it will never change. How many wars and how many people have been and still are being killed over religious beliefs? Look back at the history of the church in the middle ages and the inquisition. It's always been a mess and controlled by men. Heretics everywhere. The people who fled europe because of religious oppression, what did they do? Came to america and either tried to 'convert' the savages to their beliefs, or kill them if they didn't.

All over a book and an entity nobody can see.

Is that really how people conform to God's way? Really? Or is it something else, something that has nothing to do with God? Put the blame where it belongs...

 

[OlNate]

There are many reasons for this. It is an issue that many people are passionate about. Also when people engage in debate there is this innate desire to prove the other person wrong (which in an of itself begs the question why, but I digress). But this is not just the case when it comes to God or religion, people are just as passionate if not more when it comes to politics. Part of the fundamental issue in particularly for the atheist (or non-theist) is that they don't want someone else telling them ow to live their life. The same is the case when it comes to politics, most people don't want some self-righteous politician telling them how to live their life.

Of course, you are correct - perhaps if we come up with something in this micro example, we can apply it to the macro. The fact is that some folks are able to tolerate differing opinions just fine. Why do you think it works in their case, but not others? Is there a way to help folks remain passionate, but also let them know that it's ok for people to hold different opinions, without ending up in a donnybrook?

 

[bongsaway]

And others, such as myself, cannot believe anything else, but that there is a Divine Creator for all of this, it's not just by happenstance...so we're back to square one...

Not really. I never go door to door trying to convince anyone to not believe in a god but I've had my door approached many times by people trying to spread the word of god. To me it all goes back to believe what you wish, just don't come to my door and try to convince me to believe what you do.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Read it. So, how do we avoid option number three? Or do you think it's unavoidable?

You either concur an enemy or surrender to it. The only other (temporary?) out seems to be running away and hoping that they revert to option #2 and do not pursue you.

 

[Daisy]

Not really. I never go door to door trying to convince anyone to not believe in a god but I've had my door approached many times by people trying to spread the word of god. To me it all goes back to believe what you wish, just don't come to my door and try to convince me to believe what you do.

What motive do you think is behind the door knocking?

 

[bongsaway]

As a point of clarification, this is not a universal attitude. I belong to the Lutheran church. We welcome gay folks to service, we marry them, and ordain them. We are not the only denomination to do this.

Not that there isn't persecution of gays within other denominations within the greater church...this is just to point out that a generalization cannot be made here.

However in real life you cannot tell me the 'christians' don't try to jam laws down the throats of others to condone their beliefs. Look at abortion for just one issue.

 

[OlNate]

OlNate, the only time I discuss religion is on here, it has no part of my everyday life. The two groups of people we are discussing will never agree and it will always be volatile between us. I like your thought that you wish there was something we could agree on but it just ain't gonna' happen.

I know we'll never agree on religion, as I've said. But is it truly impossible to agree to respect each other, and the way we choose to live our lives? You say it ain't gonna happen, but I totally respect your decision to stay true to the version of the universe that makes sense to you. You and I agree on a ton of other things. Like, most things, we throw each other likes in pretty much every other part of this forum. We both identify as progressive. But I believe in a sky daddy, and you don't. Are we friends, or do you think I'm a dumbass?

 

[bongsaway]

Ok...so...with respect and caution... Are you saying that Christians should hold the opinion that atheists are the bane of humanity?

Anyone can hold any belief they wish. If you think/believe I'm a bad person for voicing my opinion of religion, so be it you are welcome to whatever you wish to believe.

The point I'm trying to be clear on is believe what you wish.

 

[OlNate]

However in real life you cannot tell me the 'christians' don't try to jam laws down the throats of others to condone their beliefs. Look at abortion for just one issue.

hehe...some definitely do. But not all, and I think that's an important consideration. Just going back to my own experience for an example, the Lutheran church's stance on abortion is as follows: We make every attempt to ensure that someone coming to us for guidance (generally a member) around abortion has all their options in front of them, and, if they decide that they still want to go through with the abortion, we love them all the same. We do not protest abortion, we don't attempt to get in the middle of it at all.

The problem with online debating is that you never know what kind of Christian (or atheist) you're talking to. Assumptions are made, the fight ensues, and everyone leaves more pissed off and confused than when it started. Would it bother you to know that you called someone with the above beliefs "the bane of humanity"? Does that sound like "the bane of humanity" to you?

 

[OlNate]

Anyone can hold any belief they wish. If you think/believe I'm a bad person for voicing my opinion of religion, so be it you are welcome to whatever you wish to believe.

The point I'm trying to be clear on is believe what you wish.

I don't think you're a bad person. I'm just exploring your statement "Believe in yourself and treat others the way you wish to be treated." Given that you feel it's important to tell us that you think our way of life is the bane of humanity, is that what you're hoping for in return?

(Just want to clarify, I'm not particularly offended by your position. I find it sad, on a personal note, but I understand why *some people feel that way. Remember, the purpose of this thread is to see if there's a way to de escalate that, and reconcile. If your firm position is that reconciliation is impossible, I accept that).

 

[OlNate]

You either concur an enemy or surrender to it. The only other (temporary?) out seems to be running away and hoping that they revert to option #2 and do not pursue you.

But that assumes that we had no part in creating the conflict. Say someone picks a fight with you after you...I dunno...cut them off thoughtlessly in traffic. Wouldn't apologizing and acknowledging the harm done which lead to the conflict be a way to diffuse it?