Atheist / Theist Reconciliation Thread

[beancounter]

There is no way to reconcile. Two very different views of reality where no "in-between" exists.

 

[bongsaway]

I am an atheist and very, very happy I am. I don't have to twist myself into knots about 'moral' issues because of a god. I know the difference between right and wrong and I don't need a god or a religion for that purpose. I don't believe in an afterlife either, along with a heaven or hell. I also don't care what others believe or what religion they choose to believe or what god.

With that said, I think religion is the bane of humanity and I've said that time and again on here.

I believe there was a guy named jesus that once walked this earth. I do not believe this jesus was any kind of god. I look at jesus as more of the first hippie preaching sharing and love for one another, period.

All I ever ask is don't try to push your beliefs down my throat.

I was stewed in the catholic religion for many years and went to catholic school. I believe none of it.

 

[Daisy]

As an atheist, I could easily tolerate the religious if:

1. They stay the **** out of politics
2. They stay the **** away from abortion clinics
3. They stay the **** away from me
4. They stay the **** off the goddamned TV
5. They pray in private like the good lord asked them to.

Well, as you probably already know, JW's do all of that except for #3 and you've probably been told why that is...

 

[OlNate]

That's the point of the quote...I don't think you can...

So you think there is no possibility of a live and let live coexistence between theists and atheists in general? Or is it that you think that the folks who are "angry", per the definition provided in the OP, cannot be reconciled with?

 

[swing_voter]

Yes we are. So, why do you think some of us have such a difficult time tolerating their challenges?

I don't have a hard time tolerating their challenges.

 

[OlNate]

I am an atheist and very, very happy I am. I don't have to twist myself into knots about 'moral' issues because of a god. I know the difference between right and wrong and I don't need a god or a religion for that purpose. I don't believe in an afterlife either, along with a heaven or hell. I also don't care what others believe or what religion they choose to believe or what god.

With that said, I think religion is the bane of humanity and I've said that time and again on here.

I believe there was a guy named jesus that once walked this earth. I do not believe this jesus was any kind of god. I look at jesus as more of the first hippie preaching sharing and love for one another, period.

All I ever ask is don't try to push your beliefs down my throat.

I was stewed in the catholic religion for many years and went to catholic school. I believe none of it.

Hi, Bong.

So, what would it take to get you to say "All I ever ask is don't try to push your beliefs down my throat", without including "religion is the bane of humanity"? What would it take for you to ask that we "don't try to push your beliefs down my throat", without "pushing your belief (religion is the bane of humanity) down our throat"?

(Quotes used to indicate that I'm using your words to draw a parallel, not because I'm trying to call you out or get nasty).

 

[OlNate]

I don't have a hard time tolerating their challenges.

No, I know...I said "some of us".

 

[bongsaway]

It's difficult to have a discussion when we don't have definition of subject matter, or exclude what else should be in the range of subject.

Many people are not atheist but rather agnostic and may not know it but for giving some further, critical thought to the matter. Agnostics are more about science and recognize that the supernatural being cannot be proven but cannot be disproven either. Therefore, however slim the possibility, the existence of a supernatural being is "possible". An atheist believes there is no such thing and can't be any such thing. That it's an impossibility. Pretty much black and white. Einstein, for instance, was agnostic. Though he might just have said he's not an agnostic, he's a scientist.

Anyway, to your point, it bothers me when people do not practice what they expect of others, whether they be theist, atheist, agnostic, naturalist or what. It can make me angry when any group attempts to force, legally binding, their belief upon others that must be followed. I will add that it is much easier to practice atheism/agnosticism/naturalism or even deism than to practice some form of religion and say you practice what you preach. Much easier.

As an atheist I must object to your statement that atheist don't believe there can be supernatural. I firmly believe there is more on earth than most of us can pick up on. Like these ghost shows. To me most of them are a load of crap. There used to be a show on about kids with paranormal abilities and most of them were scared of their abilities and didn't like them. I firmly believe these kids could see and hear what they were describing. I just don't believe in a god, a supreme being. I do believe in nature and evolution.

 

[OlNate]

As an atheist I must object to your statement that atheist don't believe there can be supernatural. I firmly believe there is more on earth than most of us can pick up on. Like these ghost shows. To me most of them are a load of crap. There used to be a show on about kids with paranormal abilities and most of them were scared of their abilities and didn't like them. I firmly believe these kids could see and hear what they were describing. I just don't believe in a god, a supreme being. I do believe in nature and evolution.

Side note: I find this fascinating. I'd love for you to start a thread on beliefs in the supernatural by atheists.

 

[bongsaway]

Hi, Bong.

So, what would it take to get you to say "All I ever ask is don't try to push your beliefs down my throat", without including "religion is the bane of humanity"? What would it take for you to ask that we "don't try to push your beliefs down my throat", without "pushing your belief (religion is the bane of humanity) down our throat"?

(Quotes used to indicate that I'm using your words to draw a parallel, not because I'm trying to call you out or get nasty).

I think this might be the difference. Do you or anyone else that visit the beliefs or religion threads and see me posting a question there? Do you ever, ever see me starting a thread that says, religion the bane of humanity, what do you think? No, never. I'm only voicing my singular opinion and what I think about organized religion of any sort.

On the contrary, how many threads on here have you seen where 'christians' are only interested in jamming their beliefs down others throats? Lots.

 

[Daisy]

So you think there is no possibility of a live and let live coexistence between theists and atheists in general? Or is it that you think that the folks who are "angry", per the definition provided in the OP, cannot be reconciled with?

The angry ones, yes...many others do live and let live, at least on the surface...

 

[bongsaway]

Side note: I find this fascinating. I'd love for you to start a thread on beliefs in the supernatural by atheists.

Great thought but if I did it would negate my last post to you.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I agree, it's tough. And yet, cooperation has always been essential to our survival as a species. Traditionally "cooperation" has been achievable through coercion. Less so now. I'm not trying to figure out how to reconcile ideologies. I, personally, believe that to be impossible. Rather, I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile people, despite their holding differing ideologies.

Do you have any thoughts on how this could be done?

Follow the golden rule (treating others as you want to be treated or the ethic of reciprocity) - which seems to be fairly universally accepted.

 

[bongsaway]

First, I'm not trying to define anyone with this... It's not about who's what, there's lots of callouts in other threads, and they generally turn to **** as a result.

As for the distinction, I'd accept either, but I suppose I'm most interested in what goes on here - or online, anonymously, if that works. What would it take to say "I believe because" or "I don't believe because", without adding "and because you're the opposite, you're a dummy" - either literally, or with the chosen tone of responses, and the cavalier disrespect shown for differing opinions.

I'm going heavy with the disclaimers in this thread, so I'll add that I'm not centering out theists over atheists, or vice versa. I've seen it from both sides, and both sides have gotten mad at me for calling it out.

I use this example when speaking with 'believers' in the bible. When you can explain to me in a way that I will believe, I'll accept your beliefs. How does a human live in the belly of a fish for three days?

 

[OlNate]

I think this might be the difference. Do you or anyone else that visit the beliefs or religion threads and see me posting a question there? Do you ever, ever see me starting a thread that says, religion the bane of humanity, what do you think? No, never. I'm only voicing my singular opinion and what I think about organized religion of any sort.

On the contrary, how many threads on here have you seen where 'christians' are only interested in jamming their beliefs down others throats? Lots.

Oh, I think it goes both ways in here. You can do your own research through the thread history, I won't spend time in here calling anyone out specifically.

So, in a thread about reconciliation, what do you think your "bane of humanity" opinion adds? You've dropped that twice today, in two threads trying to understand why we fight so much.

 

[ttwtt78640]

That is a choice only each one of us can make for ourselves...I've learned, through life experiences, His way works much better in the long run than doing as I please...

OK, and what is "His way" of dealing with non-believers?

 

[bongsaway]

As Christians, people who follow the teachings of Jesus, we are directed to love atheists.

But no gay folks?

 

[OlNate]

The angry ones, yes...many others do live and let live, at least on the surface...

Do you think the problem lies entirely with them, or does our response to them further the division?

 

[Daisy]

OK, and what is "His way" of dealing with non-believers?

Look at the world we live in...do you think there can ever be a paradise, with all inhabitants living in peace, the way things are...the way people are?

 

[OlNate]

Great thought but if I did it would negate my last post to you.

Why do you say that? Surely a thread can be started in a respectful way. "I believe" is vastly different than "you should believe" or "you're an idiot if you believe", no?

 

[OlNate]

Follow the golden rule (treating others as you want to be treated or the ethic of reciprocity) - which seems to be fairly universally accepted.

So, why do you think it's not working? I mean, the golden rule seems to be widely abandoned, does it not? Not just in this context, but nearly every one I can think of. How do we make our way back to that?

 

[Daisy]

Do you think the problem lies entirely with them, or does our response to them further the division?

Probably works both ways...I know I get frustrated when a person mocks and ridicules what I hold dear or I explain something over and over to a person and he just doesn't get it, or just doesn't wanna get it...patience is definitely a fruitage of the spirit I need to work on...

 

[bongsaway]

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” ― Criss Jami, Killosophy

I think that is really simplifying the issue and not addressing the why the atheist believe in a what. As I have stated on here many times, I was steeped in the catholic religion for years, and now I believe it to be nothing more than a fantasy created by who knows who. Some storyteller way back when to keep the kids in line. After many years of being 'taught' 'who' created the universe, I find it to be a story I simply can't believe and that is why I'm an atheist.

 

[OlNate]

I use this example when speaking with 'believers' in the bible. When you can explain to me in a way that I will believe, I'll accept your beliefs. How does a human live in the belly of a fish for three days?

As I said, this is not a thread about whether or not God, or gods, is real. I accept that you don't believe, and I do not feel compelled to try to change your mind.

This is about getting two groups of people, with very different opinions, to stop fighting. Is proving my beliefs are real the only way you'll accept my right to hold them, unharassed? Should I wait for you to prove the non-existence of God before I accept your decision to withhold belief?

 

[Daisy]

I think that is really simplifying the issue and not addressing the why the atheist believe in a what. As I have stated on here many times, I was steeped in the catholic religion for years, and now I believe it to be nothing more than a fantasy created by who knows who. Some storyteller way back when to keep the kids in line. After many years of being 'taught' 'who' created the universe, I find it to be a story I simply can't believe and that is why I'm an atheist.

And others, such as myself, cannot believe anything else, but that there is a Divine Creator for all of this, it's not just by happenstance...so we're back to square one...