At the only gun shop in Thousand Oaks, fearful residents decide it's time to buy a gun

[Bullseye]

Then how crazy and illogical it is that all the other developed countries seem to be statistically safer with dramatically less guns than the US. If your thesis were correct America would be the safest place on earth.

You've heard the saying "lies, damn lies, and statistics" I assume. Statistics don't reflect societal and cultural differences, for instance.

 

[JC Callender]

In a conversation about America's violent crime rate, directly pointing to blacks and hispanics as the reason we have a problem is objectively racist. We'd still have a violent crime problem if only whites were allowed in America, and the vast number of mass shooting perpetrators are white. Stop blaming other races for our problem as a society.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/health/gun-deaths-in-men-by-state-study/index.html

Tell me, according to this CNN link, who commits more gun homicides by at least 380%, blacks or whites?

Btw, it's not a black problem, it's a cultural problem of a race that was treated horribly in the U.S. for hundreds of years trying to figure things out, imo. But the bottom line is Wan was intitially right and your attempt at guilt shaming him with identity politics was uncalled for.

 

[Rich2018]

...People need to recognize that giving up their arms and pushing for laws forcing other's to do so only makes it easier for those who don't care about the law to harm them....

People need to realize that passing laws and forcing Americans to give up their arms is the only way to stop those that don't care about the law from gunning them down...regularly.

 

[Cordelier]

I am.

You figure back in the day when Jesus and the Apostles were wandering around the Galilee that they were carrying? Not Glock 17s of course... but some sort of self-defense? Swords or daggers or such?

 

[Anarchon]

Then how crazy and illogical it is that all the other developed countries seem to be statistically safer with dramatically less guns than the US. If your thesis were correct America would be the safest place on earth.

Perhaps there are other factors you aren't accounting for. For example, those countries (like in Europe) have been significantly more culturally uniform than has the "melting pot" of the U.S.. That is now changing, and you're seeing their increases in crime as a result.

 

[Cordelier]

This is a defeatist's attitude. I would like the option, regardless of if the chances are stacked against me. There have been some would-be mass shootings that were cut short by people on the scene carrying. Your mindset would preclude that from ever happening.

Unfortunately, your mindset is also the government's mindset. They create the gun-free zones in which the majority of these mass-shootings occur, or they infringe on people's abilities to defend themselves in other ways. The bad guys know this...and that's precisely why they happen. If these bad guys knew their chances of success were significantly less because people were willing and capable of defending themselves, there would be fewer mass shootings.

You can call it defeatism... I call it realism. I don't argue that the right person in the right place at the right time can make a difference.... but it seems to me that far more active shooters are subdued by unarmed bystanders than armed ones on the rare occasions where people have the opportunity to respond.

 

[Anarchon]

...it seems to me that far more active shooters are subdued by unarmed bystanders than armed ones on the rare occasions where people have the opportunity to respond.

Feel free to back this up this ridiculous claim. Any man with a gun can also choose to do something unarmed.

 

[Rucker61]

You can call it defeatism... I call it realism. I don't argue that the right person in the right place at the right time can make a difference.... but it seems to me that far more active shooters are subdued by unarmed bystanders than armed ones on the rare occasions where people have the opportunity to respond.

Every mass shooting has unarmed victims - how many have armed victims?

 

[Cordelier]

You were in the Army, yeah? Then you know that "no plan survives first contact with the enemy".

There are always unknowns in any attack. No mass shooter plans to meet a skilled, motivated defender. That's why they attack targets that they believe to be 100% defenseless. A counter-attack, using maximum violence is the unknown in these kinds of attacks. When counter-attacked, his plan doesn't survive.

You know what's different about the Army? When you're in a combat zone, you have a certain expectation of contact. Even if you're ambushed and caught completely flat-footed in a seemingly "safe" area, it's not entirely out of the blue in the same way it'd be if gunfire broke out while you were picking up milk at Whole Foods. I don't doubt that a counter-attack would be effective... what I doubt is the ability of the vast majority of people to counter-attack in that kind of a situation.

What the hell do I know, though? Everyone I talk to about this is some hero ready, willing, and armed to save the day. Of course they're going to know better than some chickens**t defeatist who says it ain't gonna be that way.

 

[dogboy49]

Awareness is one thing.... what I'm talking about is another thing entirely.

Yes. The awareness of which you speak is not the same as the one I describe. I will add that the war that changed me was different from the one that molded your experience. I can't possibly hope to know what you know.

I'm just suggesting that in the rare occasions where that does happen, it's just a fluke. The right person in the right place at the right time. Everybody thinks they're that person... but pretty much everybody is wrong.

Maybe. So what? With your experience, I think you will agree that being shot at while empty handed is quite a bit less desirable than being shot at while armed. Statistics/odds/chances of something working out in a certain way are irrelevant to me. I choose to defend myself, my family, and my property as I see fit. The final outcome may very well not be the one I imagine, but none of us really knows, with all the variables involved, how a specific scenario will actually work out. In the end, I'll continue to take the gun option. I have no objection if you choose otherwise.

 

[Cordelier]

Every mass shooting has unarmed victims - how many have armed victims?

February 13, 2005
At 3:15 pm, Robert Charles Bonelli, Jr., 25, armed with an AK-47 variant, began shooting in the Best Buy at the Hudson Valley Mall in Kingston, NY. The shooter continued firing as he ran farther and father into the mall until he ran out of ammunition. No one was killed; two people were wounded. The shooter was restrained by two mall workers until police arrived and took him into custody.

Are you going to tell me that out of the hundreds of people in that Mall that day, not one of them was armed?

 

[apdst]

You know what's different about the Army? When you're in a combat zone, you have a certain expectation of contact. Even if you're ambushed and caught completely flat-footed in a seemingly "safe" area, it's not entirely out of the blue in the same way it'd be if gunfire broke out while you were picking up milk at Whole Foods. I don't doubt that a counter-attack would be effective... what I doubt is the ability of the vast majority of people to counter-attack in that kind of a situation.

What the hell do I know, though? Everyone I talk to about this is some hero ready, willing, and armed to save the day. Of course they're going to know better than some chickens**t defeatist who says it ain't gonna be that way.

That's why as many people as possible need to do all they can to be prepared to react to contact. Will it be Hollywood perfect? Probably not. Could only make matters worse? That possibility exists. But, doing nothing, isn't an option. We seen what doing nothing accomplishes and I don't know about you, but I'm not satisfied with the result.

"Make a decision, even it's wrong"

 

[apdst]

February 13, 2005
At 3:15 pm, Robert Charles Bonelli, Jr., 25, armed with an AK-47 variant, began shooting in the Best Buy at the Hudson Valley Mall in Kingston, NY. The shooter continued firing as he ran farther and father into the mall until he ran out of ammunition. No one was killed; two people were wounded. The shooter was restrained by two mall workers until police arrived and took him into custody.

Are you going to tell me that out of the hundreds of people in that Mall that day, not one of them was armed?

In New York state? Yeah, it's probable that no one was armed.

 

[Cordelier]

Yes. The awareness of which you speak is not the same as the one I describe. I will add that the war that changed me was different from the one that molded your experience. I can't possibly hope to know what you know.



Maybe. So what? With your experience, I think you will agree that being shot at while empty handed is quite a bit less desirable than being shot at while armed. Statistics/odds/chances of something working out in a certain way are irrelevant to me. I choose to defend myself, my family, and my property as I see fit. The final outcome may very well not be the one I imagine, but none of us really knows, with all the variables involved, how a specific scenario will actually work out. In the end, I'll continue to take the gun option. I have no objection if you choose otherwise.

I understand what you're saying.... but do you understand me? Don't you feel like the "edge" you need to respond effectively in that kind of situation dulls over time?

I just - if I were lucky enough to be able to do so - picture myself returning fire in that kind of a situation, and all I can picture is screaming people running in panic from one direction, only to be confronted with gunfire in another one. That's what I mean when I say an armed bystander has the potential to make an already terrible situation worse. Secondly, when and if the cops show up while the shooting is going on... they're not going to be able to tell if you're a shooter or a bystander. So there is the potential for more confusion there as well. It just seems like a recipe for making things worse.

 

[Cordelier]

In New York state? Yeah, it's probable that no one was armed.

July 27, 2008
At 10:18 am, Jim David Adkisson, 58 armed with a shotgun, began shooting in the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, TN. Two people were killed; seven were wounded. The shooter was restrained by citizens before police arrived and took him into custody.

How about there?

 

[TurtleDude]

If you exclude any group's contribution you reduce the crime rate. You just chose the racist option.

what exactly was racist about his comments?

 

[TurtleDude]

People need to realize that passing laws and forcing Americans to give up their arms is the only way to stop those that don't care about the law from gunning them down...regularly.

a most stupid suggestion-the people MOST likely to harm others with firearms are the LEAST likely to give up firearms.

 

[TurtleDude]

February 13, 2005
At 3:15 pm, Robert Charles Bonelli, Jr., 25, armed with an AK-47 variant, began shooting in the Best Buy at the Hudson Valley Mall in Kingston, NY. The shooter continued firing as he ran farther and father into the mall until he ran out of ammunition. No one was killed; two people were wounded. The shooter was restrained by two mall workers until police arrived and took him into custody.

Are you going to tell me that out of the hundreds of people in that Mall that day, not one of them was armed?

maybe not in NY-hard to get a permit in lots of NY

 

[joko104]

Renae's secret admirer strikes again.

 

[JoanDavis]

A lot of people have the right idea.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-grill-fearful-residents-buy-guns/1947476002/

Why are guns banned at trump and republican rallies? If guns are so great they should be allowed in their rallies. Why are they disrespecting the 2nd amendment? Do they hate guns?

 

[apdst]

July 27, 2008
At 10:18 am, Jim David Adkisson, 58 armed with a shotgun, began shooting in the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, TN. Two people were killed; seven were wounded. The shooter was restrained by citizens before police arrived and took him into custody.

How about there?

People acted. Stopped the attack. What's your point?

It is (was?) illegal to tote a gun in a church house in most places.

 

[apdst]

If you exclude any group's contribution you reduce the crime rate. You just chose the racist option.

But you're ok when your buddy Don Lemon finger ****ed white males?

 

[JoanDavis]

You show little evidence of spreading the love.

TRUE Christians would NEVER support murder, the death penalty, wars, adultery, sexual assault, rape, pedophilia, racism, homophobia, sexism or greed. Sadly a lot of far right conservatives support all this **** and claim to be 'christian'.

 

[apdst]

Why are guns banned at trump and republican rallies? If guns are so great they should be allowed in their rallies. Why are they disrespecting the 2nd amendment? Do they hate guns?

Guns aren't banned at Trump rallies. The Secret Service has plenty of guns, at Trump rallies.

This is one of President Reagan's body guards. That's an Uzi sub-machine gun he's carrying.

 

[apdst]

You show little evidence of spreading the love.

Jesus said that if you don't own a sword to protect yourself, you should sell your coat to make the money to get one.