At least five people stabbed at neo-Nazi event outside Capitol in Sacramento

[Beaudreaux]

When talking about White Supremacists, mentioning Hitler isn't the same sort of fallacy it usually is.

As for being ridiculous, you'll have to take it up with the person I was quoting. I'm merely applying his Transitive Property of Ideology on the other side of this confrontation.

It wasn't him that extemporaneously used this thread to compare conservatism to Hitler by doing so in a way as if he invented it - that, was a blatant and ironically transitive application of ideology. Hence my WTF... and so forth that followed.

 

[MadLib]

What do you folks think? Should it be okay for people to attack racist neo-Nazi hate groups and cause riots and mayhem to keep them from being able to exercise their 1st Amendment Rights to Peacefully Assemble and that of Freedom of Speech?

In general, no. In extreme circumstances, such as when Nazis are close to gaining power or have just been removed from power, it may be necessary to use force of some kind to prevent them from spreading their ideology. Such violence should be carried out with the goal in mind of relegating fascism to political irrelevancy and should not be wanton. Consider, for example, Germany's laws against fascist parties and Holocaust denial. Those laws, while alien to us due to our consistent climate of political freedom, were necessary to purge the nation of a cancerous ideology that had ruled it with totalitarian control for twelve years.

Free speech is obviously one of the most important rights there is, but it is not sacrosanct - every right may need to be abrogated at some point to protect freedom in general. The right of Jews, biracial people, disabled people, LGBT people and others to live their lives without fear of death or deportation ultimately trumps fascists' right to free speech, a right that they would happily trample on if they were in power anyways.

 

[calamity]

I just saw on CNN where there were about 30-40 of these neo-Nazi assholes and there were between 200-300 of the other people and that the 200-300 were planning on attacking the racist group - that was the purpose of the anti-rally, to attack and harm the neo-Nazi's.

If we don't protect the rights of the bad people, then the rights of the good people are not safe, and when the good people are the ones that trample the Constitution, then they are just as bad (if not worse) than the neo-Nazi bastards.

JMHO.

We've had this in court already - National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 (1977) where the SCOTUS ruled that the neo-Nazi's had the 1st Amendment protected right to Peacefully Assemble and that the Swastika does not rise to "fighting words" to be suppressed and is also protected by the 1st Amendment, specifically the right to Freedom of Speech.

There are very few things that rise to the level that I can say that I hate them : Nazi's and neo-Nazi's rise to that level. However, I fought to protect their rights under the Constitution just as I did for you and I.

In the end, attacking them just makes martyrs out of the Neo Nazis, which was their goal. I am sure.

 

[chuckiechan]

Nothing warms my heart more than a gang fight between two different goon squads on the steps of the state Capitol of Commiefornia - land of fruits and nuts!

 

[rocket88]

Political correctness has twisted the idea of free speech to the point that free speech is anything that agrees with progressive ideology.
Anything else is hate speech and violent suppression is somehow justified.

Racism qualifies as hate speech no matter what your partisan stripe.

 

[rocket88]

WTF? Seriously? Reductio ad absurdum and reductio ad Hilterum all in the same sentence. Amazing.

I think when it's a Nazi group, reference to Hitler is pretty much assumed.

 

[chuckiechan]

The nazis had a permit,and were a small group. Miss Muffet who spoke for the anarchist said that they came to exercise their right to shut them down.

They came armed, and outnumbered the nazis. They bragged that they were going to kill them.

With all the cell phones,etc, I expect attempted murder charges be filed as soon as that squadron of pigs at Sac Metro Airport files it's flight plan.

They were protesting at a largely closed building.

 

[TobyOne]

Fascists vs Fascists. Arm both sides.

 

[Deuce]

It wasn't him that extemporaneously used this thread to compare conservatism to Hitler by doing so in a way as if he invented it - that, was a blatant and ironically transitive application of ideology. Hence my WTF... and so forth that followed.

No, he just did it for "political correctness" and stabbin a dude.

I'm glad you agree with me that this concept he invented is absurd.

 

[Quazimodo]

I'm just curious:how'd you Dudes and Dudettes feel if the Neo-Nazis were instead a small group of Islamic Radicals?

 

[Beaudreaux]

In general, no. In extreme circumstances, such as when Nazis are close to gaining power or have just been removed from power, it may be necessary to use force of some kind to prevent them from spreading their ideology. Such violence should be carried out with the goal in mind of relegating fascism to political irrelevancy and should not be wanton. Consider, for example, Germany's laws against fascist parties and Holocaust denial. Those laws, while alien to us due to our consistent climate of political freedom, were necessary to purge the nation of a cancerous ideology that had ruled it with totalitarian control for twelve years.

Free speech is obviously one of the most important rights there is, but it is not sacrosanct - every right may need to be abrogated at some point to protect freedom in general. The right of Jews, biracial people, disabled people, LGBT people and others to live their lives without fear of death or deportation ultimately trumps fascists' right to free speech, a right that they would happily trample on if they were in power anyways.

When you make excuses to abrogate rights to "protect" rights, no rights are safe, freedom is lost, and tyranny reigns.

 

[Beaudreaux]

In the end, attacking them just makes martyrs out of the Neo Nazis, which was their goal. I am sure.

You may be giving them (the Nazis) too much credit, to even think that far ahead, or to think at all for that matter.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I think when it's a Nazi group, reference to Hitler is pretty much assumed.

Not relevant in the context of the discussion between he and I or his original statement which promulgated the discussion. Correlation is not causation.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I'm just curious:how'd you Dudes and Dudettes feel if the Neo-Nazis were instead a small group of Islamic Radicals?

Me? The same, given that the US Constitution doesn't say - all these rights apply to everyone, except those guys over there.

 

[ajn678]

Racism qualifies as hate speech no matter what your partisan stripe.

Hate speech. What a stupid idea.

 

[Beaudreaux]

No, he just did it for "political correctness" and stabbin a dude.

I'm glad you agree with me that this concept he invented is absurd.

His point was valid, which based on what you wrote above, was missed by you.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Hate speech. What a stupid idea.

I have to agree, under these circumstances: speech is speech, and any other adjective attached to it is irrelevant to its validity and protection under the 1st Amendment.

 

[Tigerace117]

At least five people stabbed at neo-Nazi event outside Capitol in Sacramento | LA Times



It would appear that a racist neo-Nazi hate group had a permit to have rally at the capital, and a large group of young people that are against racist neo-Nazi hate groups attacked them and started a major riot, that ended up getting at least 5 people stabbed.

According to what I've seen on CNN, especially an interview they broadcast with a young woman that was a leader and speaker of the group that was against the racist neo-Nazi hate group, that those against the hate group, intended on attacking and causing violence.

When the good people lower themselves to the level below the gutter that these racist neo-Nazi hate groups live in by infringing on their 1st Amendment Rights, and then attacking them... they are no better, and are at that particular moment in time, even worse than the racist neo-Nazi hate group is being.

What do you folks think? Should it be okay for people to attack racist neo-Nazi hate groups and cause riots and mayhem to keep them from being able to exercise their 1st Amendment Rights to Peacefully Assemble and that of Freedom of Speech?

Nazis are scumbags. The problem is the actions of these people were hardly constitutional, and certainly in poor taste, sinking to the Nazis' level.

 

[AGENT J]

At least five people stabbed at neo-Nazi event outside Capitol in Sacramento | LA Times



It would appear that a racist neo-Nazi hate group had a permit to have rally at the capital, and a large group of young people that are against racist neo-Nazi hate groups attacked them and started a major riot, that ended up getting at least 5 people stabbed.

According to what I've seen on CNN, especially an interview they broadcast with a young woman that was a leader and speaker of the group that was against the racist neo-Nazi hate group, that those against the hate group, intended on attacking and causing violence.

When the good people lower themselves to the level below the gutter that these racist neo-Nazi hate groups live in by infringing on their 1st Amendment Rights, and then attacking them... they are no better, and are at that particular moment in time, even worse than the racist neo-Nazi hate group is being.

What do you folks think? Should it be okay for people to attack racist neo-Nazi hate groups and cause riots and mayhem to keep them from being able to exercise their 1st Amendment Rights to Peacefully Assemble and that of Freedom of Speech?

No, assault is not ok

 

[Beaudreaux]

Nazis are scumbags. The problem is the actions of these people were hardly constitutional, and certainly in poor taste, sinking to the Nazis' level.

Yup, and pretty much what I said in the OP.

 

[Henrin]

Knife violence! It's ****ing everywhere!

possible solutions:

1. Background check for knives
2. Mandated knife safety training
3. Mandated classes to teach people how to properly store knives
4. Ban military style knives
5. Ban black knives
6. Ban people from having knives in public

:lamo

 

[Henrin]

Free speech is obviously one of the most important rights there is, but it is not sacrosanct - every right may need to be abrogated at some point to protect freedom in general. The right of Jews, biracial people, disabled people, LGBT people and others to live their lives without fear of death or deportation ultimately trumps fascists' right to free speech, a right that they would happily trample on if they were in power anyways.

How do I control how someone feels?

 

[Moot]

At least five people stabbed at neo-Nazi event outside Capitol in Sacramento | LA Times
....

What do you folks think? Should it be okay for people to attack racist neo-Nazi hate groups and cause riots and mayhem to keep them from being able to exercise their 1st Amendment Rights to Peacefully Assemble and that of Freedom of Speech?

The BoR's ..the First Amendment...is a restriction on government infringement on the people's free speech and right to assemble. It is NOT a restriction on the people infringing on the free speech and assembly of other people.

 

[SMTA]

At least five people stabbed at neo-Nazi event outside Capitol in Sacramento | LA Times



It would appear that a racist neo-Nazi hate group had a permit to have rally at the capital, and a large group of young people that are against racist neo-Nazi hate groups attacked them and started a major riot, that ended up getting at least 5 people stabbed.

According to what I've seen on CNN, especially an interview they broadcast with a young woman that was a leader and speaker of the group that was against the racist neo-Nazi hate group, that those against the hate group, intended on attacking and causing violence.

When the good people lower themselves to the level below the gutter that these racist neo-Nazi hate groups live in by infringing on their 1st Amendment Rights, and then attacking them... they are no better, and are at that particular moment in time, even worse than the racist neo-Nazi hate group is being.

What do you folks think? Should it be okay for people to attack racist neo-Nazi hate groups and cause riots and mayhem to keep them from being able to exercise their 1st Amendment Rights to Peacefully Assemble and that of Freedom of Speech?

Holy Hategroups, Batman - what could have possibly gone wrong there!?

 

[SMTA]

Nazis are scumbags. The problem is the actions of these people were hardly constitutional, and certainly in poor taste, sinking to the Nazis' level.

The local folks were armed with clubs and other weapons - how do you know that they didn't bring knives also?