Assuming there's a future for humanity, how will anyone ever be able to negotiate with Russia?

[Shrink726]

At this point they've lied so frequently and with such shameless abandon it would be insane to trust them if they said the sun was going to come up in the East.

They (read: Putin) have relegated themselves to nothing but a garbage, rogue nation which doesn't even make a pretense of honoring its commitments or negotiating in good faith.

When the orange malignancy talked about "shithole countries" he was talking about Russia (even though he was too dumb to realize it).

They have no further role in the civilized world.

 

[Integrityrespec]

At this point they've lied so frequently and with such shameless abandon it would be insane to trust them if they said the sun was going to come up in the East.

They (read: Putin) have relegated themselves to nothing but a garbage, rogue nation which doesn't even make a pretense of honoring its commitments or negotiating in good faith.

When the orange malignancy talked about "shithole countries" he was talking about Russia (even though he was too dumb to realize it).

They have no further role in the civilized world.

You can't! Putin cannot be allowed to be successful in this current invasion of a sovereign nation. A nation that Russia agreed to recognize as a sovereign and independent nation. They signed on to documents to that affect. Now they are waging a war on an independent nation and the free nations of the world basically sit and watch as they negotiate with a man who has no intentions of negotiating for anything less than control of Ukraine, and quite possibly much more
This seems to be a trend with the western nations, ignore the obvious and hope it doesn't happen. Too easy on Iran, too easy on Russia, too easy on China, Afghanistan, and others. Currently those nations have our number and know we don't want conflict and will use appeasement as the main diplomatic policy.

 

[jnug]

Post Putin....baring that when we see Putin across the table we should see Hitler.

 

[tacomancer]

Post Putin....baring that when we see Putin across the table we should see Hitler.

At this point, yes he can be considered in the same tier

 

[mrjurrs]

At this point they've lied so frequently and with such shameless abandon it would be insane to trust them if they said the sun was going to come up in the East.

They (read: Putin) have relegated themselves to nothing but a garbage, rogue nation which doesn't even make a pretense of honoring its commitments or negotiating in good faith.

When the orange malignancy talked about "shithole countries" he was talking about Russia (even though he was too dumb to realize it).

They have no further role in the civilized world.

The current government will change. The land still has energy resources. Negotiations will continue.

 

[Simpletruther]

You can't! Putin cannot be allowed to be successful in this current invasion of a sovereign nation. A nation that Russia agreed to recognize as a sovereign and independent nation. They signed on to documents to that affect. Now they are waging a war on an independent nation and the free nations of the world basically sit and watch as they negotiate with a man who has no intentions of negotiating for anything less than control of Ukraine, and quite possibly much more
This seems to be a trend with the western nations, ignore the obvious and hope it doesn't happen. Too easy on Iran, too easy on Russia, too easy on China, Afghanistan, and others. Currently those nations have our number and know we don't want conflict and will use appeasement as the main diplomatic policy.

We also signed papers saying ukraine would not be in NATO. But biden sent word that we would allow it.

 

[lwf]

We also signed papers saying ukraine would not be in NATO. But biden sent word that we would allow it.

And Russia signed papers saying it would never challenge Ukraine's territorial integrity. I guess shit changes.

 

[Fearandloathing]

At this point they've lied so frequently and with such shameless abandon it would be insane to trust them if they said the sun was going to come up in the East.

They (read: Putin) have relegated themselves to nothing but a garbage, rogue nation which doesn't even make a pretense of honoring its commitments or negotiating in good faith.

When the orange malignancy talked about "shithole countries" he was talking about Russia (even though he was too dumb to realize it).

They have no further role in the civilized world.

This is what ha puzzled me. Putin, a master manipulator and evil genius has been able to grow Russia through its oil & gas revenues. They are where they are by virtue of the fact Russia has been 'accepted' by the west. In that context he risks everything for two, small, agricultural provinces that will be a drain on the budget.

Either he has made a great mistake, not a first for sure, or he knows the "international community" won't be bothered by this at all.

And trust me when I say Putin loses NO sleep over Canada's 'stern, principled stance" What is needed here is the kind f black ops presented in the Jason Borne series.

As it......................

 

[Shrink726]

We also signed papers saying ukraine would not be in NATO. But biden sent word that we would allow it.

Nope.

PolitiFact - Fact-checking claims that NATO, US broke agreement against alliance expanding eastward

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

At this point they've lied so frequently and with such shameless abandon it would be insane to trust them if they said the sun was going to come up in the East.

They (read: Putin) have relegated themselves to nothing but a garbage, rogue nation which doesn't even make a pretense of honoring its commitments or negotiating in good faith.

When the orange malignancy talked about "shithole countries" he was talking about Russia (even though he was too dumb to realize it).

They have no further role in the civilized world.

Any productive future negotiations with Russia will likely depend one whether there is enough sanity left in the Russian political system to overthrow Putin.

 

[rickc]

Putin only respects power.

Presently, with most of the world against him, we have that power.

We need to keep the sanctions going. Corporations are cutting their ties. They can't even get ships to carry their oil. Airlines and ships cut out of ports. Russian oligarchs are being banned from visiting the west and all their toys and mansions are being confiscated. They are being greatly limited in where they can go. Eventually they will all be back in Russia.

When we bring Russia to its knees is the time to negotiate. Until them we should isolate them like North Korea.

 

[Simpletruther]

Nope.

PolitiFact - Fact-checking claims that NATO, US broke agreement against alliance expanding eastward

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

Yep

Biden assures Zelenskiy that NATO membership in Ukraine's hands, Kyiv says

U.S. President Joe Biden assured Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy that Kyiv's bid to join the NATO military alliance was in its own hands, Zelenskiy's chief of staff said after the two leaders spoke on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Simpletruther]

And Russia signed papers saying it would never challenge Ukraine's territorial integrity. I guess shit changes.

And Ukraine signed papers saying it would talk with it's breakaway western regions. Then Reneged.

 

[lwf]

And Ukraine signed papers saying it would talk with it's breakaway western regions. Then Reneged.

They reneged on "talking?" Ukraine did talk with it's breakaway western regions. Russia simply didn't like the outcome, so it violated Ukraine's territorial sovereignty despite signing a treaty saying it wouldn't.

Lesson learned. The current Russian government can never be trusted by any nation. Hope Russia enjoys its status as the next North Korea, because it will be there for a while.

 

[Simpletruther]

They reneged on "talking?" Ukraine did talk with it's breakaway western regions. Russia simply didn't like the outcome, so it violated Ukraine's territorial sovereignty despite signing a treaty saying it wouldn't.

Lesson learned. The current Russian government can never be trusted by any nation. Hope Russia enjoys its status as the next North Korea, because it will be there for a while.

Agreed on the last part.

 

[Craig234]

They (read: Putin) have relegated themselves to nothing but a garbage, rogue nation which doesn't even make a pretense of honoring its commitments or negotiating in good faith.

That's the point. In Russia's case, it's about Putin. The next leader can change things greatly. In countries like China and North Korea, the rot is massive and systemic and they could change the leader a thousand times and not much change. They're much bigger challenges.

 

[Craig234]

They reneged on "talking?" Ukraine did talk with it's breakaway western regions. Russia simply didn't like the outcome, so it violated Ukraine's territorial sovereignty despite signing a treaty saying it wouldn't.

Breakaway eastern regions. Yes, Russia did, and while it does not justify the war, we should mention in the same topic that the US and NATO broke our own commitments on NATO expansion. And that NATO doesn't have a great history when it does use force - in Yugoslavia and Libya. And we really didn't give a crap about that.

 

[SoCal]

We also signed papers saying ukraine would not be in NATO. But biden sent word that we would allow it.

As far as I know we didn't sign, just a verbal agreement. I'm not calling you a liar, but link to it and let's see...

 

[Craig234]

As far as I know we didn't sign, just a verbal agreement. I'm not calling you a liar, but link to it and let's see...

It appears that US and allied leaders all provided verbal assurances to Russia that NATO would not expand, but it was never made a formal agreement. So that's not blameless; but the blame is shared by Russia not getting it into an agreement.

 

[SoCal]

It appears that US and allied leaders all provided verbal assurances to Russia that NATO would not expand, but it was never made a formal agreement. So that's not blameless; but the blame is shared by Russia not getting it into an agreement.

I'd be interested to read more about this verbal agreement, all I've come across is this;

"...The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”...".

There's a difference between giving someone assurances and leading someone to believe something;
"...To lead someone on means to make that person believe that your intentions or feelings are different to what they actually are..."

Given Russia's reneging on its written agreements, they have nothing to bitch about;

[1994] "...To solidify security commitments to Ukraine, the United States, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances on December 5, 1994. A political agreement in accordance with the principles of the Helsinki Accords, the memorandum included security assurances against the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territory or political independence. The countries promised to respect the sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine..."

 

[Variant]

This is what ha puzzled me. Putin, a master manipulator and evil genius has been able to grow Russia through its oil & gas revenues. They are where they are by virtue of the fact Russia has been 'accepted' by the west. In that context he risks everything for two, small, agricultural provinces that will be a drain on the budget.

Either he has made a great mistake, not a first for sure, or he knows the "international community" won't be bothered by this at all.

And trust me when I say Putin loses NO sleep over Canada's 'stern, principled stance" What is needed here is the kind f black ops presented in the Jason Borne series.

As it......................

The Ukraine and it's natural gas resources would be competition for supply of Europe. Putin is clearly also obviously paranoid and still harbors fantasies of rebuilding the USSR.

 

[SoCal]

The Ukraine and it's natural gas resources would be competition for supply of Europe. Putin is clearly also obviously paranoid and still harbors fantasies of rebuilding the USSR.

I think Putin is motivated more by his fantasies of rebuilding the USSR than Ukraine's resources. I heard a former high up admin security official say he believes Putin wants the Warsaw Pac back, as they're all NATO members and we would defend them, it could get very messy. Today I heard that Putin claimed these sanctions were a declaration of war, but nothing since then...

 

[Craig234]

I'd be interested to read more about this verbal agreement, all I've come across is this;

I could link a fact check for example, but it just gives the details - Bush, Baker, Germany and others telling Gorbachev and Russia that NATO would not 'expand one centimeter' to the east (Gorbachev's word), east to find with google. Some accounts are contradictory, and I think all agree it was not added to a signed agreement.

"Given Russia's reneging on its written agreements, they have nothing to bitch about;"

We're all agreeing Putin was not justified; but that doesn't mean he has 'nothing to bitch about', just that his wrongs override any of them.

 

[Variant]

I think Putin is motivated more by his fantasies of rebuilding the USSR than Ukraine's resources. I heard a former high up admin security official say he believes Putin wants the Warsaw Pac back, as they're all NATO members and we would defend them, it could get very messy. Today I heard that Putin claimed these sanctions were a declaration of war, but nothing since then...

If he wanted a real war trying to go after the whole Warsaw pact would certainly do it.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

At this point they've lied so frequently and with such shameless abandon it would be insane to trust them if they said the sun was going to come up in the East.

They (read: Putin) have relegated themselves to nothing but a garbage, rogue nation which doesn't even make a pretense of honoring its commitments or negotiating in good faith.

When the orange malignancy talked about "shithole countries" he was talking about Russia (even though he was too dumb to realize it).

They have no further role in the civilized world.

Putin won’t live forever.

The only constant in life is change.