Assuming, for a moment, that there is an end to this horror, can a Putin-led Russia ever be included in the civilized world again?

[iguanaman]

I don't see any way this could happen.

Russia will be forced to pay reparations to Ukraine and Putin will be found guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity.

They will lose their seat on the UN Security Council.

In short, they'll be viewed as a nation completely out of control.

Too bad the Russian people really have no say in their county's actions.

I don't think the free world can trade with him ever again. He uses that money to build up his weapon stash and military. We need to deprive him of the means to do that again. Ukraine is being destroyed with western money.

 

[phoenix2020]

Speechless.

Operation Iraqi Freedom

Operation Iraqi Freedom

20 March 2003 marked the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom with preemptive airstrikes on Saddam Hussein’s Presidential Palace and military targets followed by approximately 67,700 “boots on the ground” with 15,000 Navy personnel on ships in the region (Belasco). OIF was authorized when Iraq...

www.history.navy.mil

Already caught and apologized to you earlier, I got Iraqi Freedom and Desert Storm mixed up. Definitely my bad.

My post is intended to apply to Iraqi Freedom which I find largely indistinguishable from what Russia is doing to Ukraine today... a nuclear heavyweight (+ friends) wreaking havoc on another sovereign nation based on lies, misinformation and/or whatever other convenient excuses they held at the time.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Inre: The OP.

No. Not as long as Putin is alive.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Already caught and apologized to you earlier, I got Iraqi Freedom and Desert Storm mixed up. Definitely my bad.

My post is intended to apply to Iraqi Freedom which I find largely indistinguishable from what Russia is doing to Ukraine today... a nuclear heavyweight (+ friends) wreaking havoc on another sovereign nation based on lies, misinformation and/or whatever other convenient excuses they held at the time.

I’m no defender of operation Iraqi Freedom however, that action and Putin’s invasion of Ukraine very much distinguishable from each other.

 

[Cordelier]

Lol what? America didn’t lose its security council seat over Iraq, so the idea that Russia would over Ukraine is rather amusing

I don't know what parallel you're trying to draw, but we were operating under the authority of Gulf War-era UN Security Council Resolutions when we went into Iraq.

When Iraq has found to be in material breach of the terms of the Gulf War ceasefire - as it was on multiple occasions between 1991 and 2002 (notably Resolution 1441) - then that ceasefire was effectively in abeyance and the resumption of hostilities was fully justified.

 

[Tigerace117]

I don't know what parallel you're trying to draw, but we were operating under the authority of Gulf War-era UN Security Council Resolutions when we went into Iraq.

When Iraq has found to be in material breach of the terms of the Gulf War ceasefire - as it was on multiple occasions between 1991 and 2002 (notably Resolution 1441) - then that ceasefire was effectively in abeyance and the resumption of hostilities was fully justified.

And yet there was a massive degree of backlash across a significant portion of the world— including in Europe proper, not just the Third World— where the whole affair was seen as blatantly imperialistic. Yet America didn’t become some eternal pariah, funnily enough.

 

[Cordelier]

And yet there was a massive degree of backlash across a significant portion of the world— including in Europe proper, not just the Third World— where the whole affair was seen as blatantly imperialistic. Yet America didn’t become some eternal pariah, funnily enough.

There's always backlash. Probably would have been a lot worse - and actually justified - if we had actually targeted civilians, though.

 

[phoenix2020]

I’m no defender of operation Iraqi Freedom however, that action and Putin’s invasion of Ukraine very much distinguishable from each other.

Perhaps but from a geopolitical perspective and to the question of this thread, I don't see what changes all that much. After Iraq, did we lose any friends? No. Did we win over any enemies? No. Now let's look at Russia today. Did they lose any friends? No, not really. Did they win over any enemies? No, not really. The geopolitical status quo remains largely unchanged. The only difference is that over the long haul Russia might gain a bit of land and lose a bit of trade. When your strongest strategic alliance is with the de facto superpower of the 21st century, that isn't a bad place to be.

 

[Hannu]

I have little doubt civil casualties in Ukraine will, as the war drags on, eventually be larger than in Iraq. Also, I can imagine counting civil casualties when the war is underway at full speed is uncertain at best.

 

[Tigerace117]

There's always backlash. Probably would have been a lot worse - and actually justified - if we had actually targeted civilians, though.

Except for the fact that such incidents did happen on multiple occasions in both Iraq and Afghanistan....and that’s not even getting into the behavior of the mercenaries, like Blackwater, we brought in because the war wound up not being as fast as predicted.

 

[iguanaman]

Already caught and apologized to you earlier, I got Iraqi Freedom and Desert Storm mixed up. Definitely my bad.

My post is intended to apply to Iraqi Freedom which I find largely indistinguishable from what Russia is doing to Ukraine today... a nuclear heavyweight (+ friends) wreaking havoc on another sovereign nation based on lies, misinformation and/or whatever other convenient excuses they held at the time.

There are major differences between Iraq and Ukraine not that I am defending Bush's folly. The Iraqis were ruled by a vicious dictator and his army barely even fought us when we invaded and some at least were glad Saddam was gone. We did not purposely bomb civilian housing or create a mass refugee exodus from Iraq. Putin's war is one of repression of democracy and we installed a "democracy" in Iraq. Just because the Iraqis did not know what a democracy is does not mean we went there to extinguish their country like Putin is doing.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Perhaps but from a geopolitical perspective and to the question of this thread, I don't see what changes all that much. After Iraq, did we lose any friends? No. Did we win over any enemies? No. Now let's look at Russia today. Did they lose any friends? No, not really. Did they win over any enemies? No, not really. The geopolitical status quo remains largely unchanged.

You equate Iraqi Freedom and Putin’s invasion of Ukraine based on how many friends/enemies/frenemies the United States and Russia maintain?

The only difference is that over the long haul Russia might gain a bit of land and lose a bit of trade.

Many obvious differences aside, Russia may gain land in Ukraine, but Putin will not never again be welcomed in any international forum, and Russian citizens will bear the brunt of continued economic sanctions for the foreseeable future.

When your strongest strategic alliance is with the de facto superpower of the 21st century, that isn't a bad place to be.

Which country is the United States’ “strongest strategic alliance”?

 

[Outlook]

I don't see any way this could happen.

Russia will be forced to pay reparations to Ukraine and Putin will be found guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity.

They will lose their seat on the UN Security Council.

In short, they'll be viewed as a nation completely out of control.

Too bad the Russian people really have no say in their county's actions.

Of course Russia will be included back into the world after this war. It's all about the money.

Several large U.S. corporations, including PepsiCo Inc PEP.O and McDonald's Corp MCD.N, still count Russia as a growth market.
Russia imported $12.5 billion worth of U.S. products in 2017, according to official customs data. That included aircraft, machinery, pharmaceutical and chemical products.
Publicly listed U.S. companies generated more than $90 billion in revenue from Russia in 2017.

Some of these same corporation do business with the devil (Jinping) already.

 

[donhughesmusic]

I don't see any way this could happen.

Russia will be forced to pay reparations to Ukraine and Putin will be found guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity.

They will lose their seat on the UN Security Council.

In short, they'll be viewed as a nation completely out of control.

Too bad the Russian people really have no say in their county's actions.

Emperor Hirohito was left in power, even after Pearl. I guess anything can happen.

 

[yankintx]

I don't see any way this could happen.

Russia will be forced to pay reparations to Ukraine and Putin will be found guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity.

They will lose their seat on the UN Security Council.

In short, they'll be viewed as a nation completely out of control.

Too bad the Russian people really have no say in their county's actions.

I see it difficult for Russia to rejoin at the table while Putin is at the helm.

 

[Cordelier]

Except for the fact that such incidents did happen on multiple occasions in both Iraq and Afghanistan....and that’s not even getting into the behavior of the mercenaries, like Blackwater, we brought in because the war wound up not being as fast as predicted.

And every step of the way we were operating under the mandate of United Nations Security Council Resolutions.

 

[HangLow]

I likewise am amazed by people like you. The fact remains that we invaded a sovereign nation illegally, based on a lie, and killed large numbers of civilians. It was evil, and it was wrong. Did we pay a price for it? Were we permanently excommunicated from civil society? No. We are doing just fine.

Someone asked if Russia can ‘ever again’ freely interact with other nations. My opinion and reply is ‘yes’ they can, because the United States remains an existential proof point that one can invade nations over and over, kill civilizations, destroy infrastructure and commit atrocities, then move on as if none of this ever happened. Your post exemplifies my point. You’ve moved on, and you’ve found a way to rationalize why what Russia is doing is worse than anything we’ve done, and therefore why Russia must remain excluded while we remain included.

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