Assuming, for a moment, that there is an end to this horror, can a Putin-led Russia ever be included in the civilized world again?

[lwf]

There should be no attempt to apprehend, or strike, him for war crimes?

From a NATO country? No there shouldn't. Such a strike would be an act of war on Russia, same as if Putin declared Joe Biden a war criminal and sent a Russian ICBM into the White House.

Unless and until Putin intentionally draws NATO blood, NATO should refrain from drawing Russian blood. That said, I am ALL FOR Russians drawing the blood of one of their own who they deem to be the enemy of their country, and Putin certainly is the enemy of the Russian people. I am also ALL FOR Ukrainians sending hit squads into Russian cities and wreaking havoc. Ukrainian blood has obviously been drawn. Ukrainians are absolutely entitled to strike back however they can.

 

[jnug]

There are "differences", but its basically the same thing. pootin may even have a more reasoned approach to Ukraine than the US ever did to Iraq, after all Ukraine is on his doorstep and was once part of Russia.You're applying a bogus double standard imo.

Am I?

In the first place, the Soviet Union was created to emulate something like what the United States had. In the case of the USSR, a group of Republics flying under the same banner as opposed to a group of States flying under the same banner. Russia gave up any legitimates future claims on Ukraine when it simply became just another Republic flying under the banner of the USSR, just as Ukraine was. When the USSR dissolved, no Republic of the former USSR had any legitimate claim over any other Republic of the former USSR. That it would have is a bogus argument. Russia has as little claim to Ukraine as it has over Alaska though that absurdity is often put forward by Russia as well. Yes, the rest of the Republics of the USSR were simply vassal states to Russia. But that is not what the documents of the USSR said. They got what they wanted in PR out of creating something that "looked like" the United States. But paid for it when the USSR dissolved. They fugged up.

Putin's war in Ukraine is a war of conquest. Ukraine as a threat on on his doorstep?.....NOPE. Ukraine would just be happy if Putin would take his foot off their necks one of these decades. What do you think the overthrow of Yanukovych was about and why do you think he ended up in exile IN RUSSIA? NATO? NOPE....NATO is a defensive treaty alliance and Putin knows it, ethnical Russians in Ukraine?......NOPE That is not at all his rational for invading. Between ethnic Russians in Ukraine and his own loses, Putin is killing more ethnic Russians than Ukrainians. Denazification?...NOPE. Russian language in Ukraine....NOPE Donbas?..... NOPE

This is a war of conquest that Putin is fighting for the same reasons other wars of conquest are fought....because he wants the territory and the assets of Ukraine which he has wanted for decades and attempted to secure with other means for decades.

We did not go to war in Iraq over WMD's. That is for sure. However we were not trying to conquer either country. We went to war because certain chicken hawks in US government, notably Dick Cheney and John Bolton saw it as advantageous geopolitically to the West to destabilize the ME even more than it was. THAT WORKED!!!! The "tip over the applecart and see what falls out" strategy. Never mind whether we had an exit strategy or not. We didn't have one because those two BOZO's didn't want one!!!!! They thought if we upset the applecart one of two things would happen. We would end up recovering some of our lost positioning with Iran, positioning we and the UK had given up in the 1950's and which they never forgot or that we would enhance our position with what was left of Iraq after decapitating Saddam. We got neither one. We got an Iraq that was and is a mess and an Iran that hates us as much as ever.

Now, we do not have a single friend left in the ME and oh by the way, not a single friend left in OPEC. Sort of an odd position to be in for the largest consumer of oil based products in the world...wouldn't you agree. So we have paid in spades for our mistakes in that region of the world. At least we admit to them.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Am I?

Yes, you are IMO.

 

[Grand Mal]

All he has to do is say he hates Trump and the liberals would embrace him, believe me!!

Oh look, another pouting Trumpist.
Sounds like a band name, don't it? The Pouting Trumpists. They only play covers of Foreigner and Wings.

 

[jnug]

Yes, you are IMO.

Except you have not explained in any meaningful way HOW.

Your "Ukraine on Russia's doorstep" argument is bogus and your "Ukraine part of Russia" argument is equally bogus. Got any others or do you agree that Putin is fighting a war of conquest which we were not in Iraq2.

 

[Luckyone]

Intention is a difficult thing to prove in wartime. There’s little evidence that the United States deliberately targeted the civilian buildings it blew up, but they still blew up. Likewise if you look at it impartially, thus far there’s little evidence that some order was given “let’s blow up that Ukrainian hospital that clearly must be sheltering only civilians” nevertheless it was blown up. Unless you can somehow subpoena everyone in the command chain from order giver to operator and prove that civilIan’s were deliberately targeted, I think this is a strong claim to make that there is a difference.

One apparent difference is that a few weeks into this war, it’s appears as though Russia’s ability to use smart munitions to actually target things is not very good. It would not surprise me if Russia is aiming for one thing and hitting something else, more often than not.

You are blind-by-choice

Ukrainian officials say Russia has bombed a school with 400 people sheltering inside​

It was the second time in less than a week that city officials reported a public building where residents had taken shelter coming under attack. A bomb hit a Mariupol theater with more than 1,300 believed to be inside on Wednesday, local officials said.


‘Pure genocide’: civilian targets in Mariupol ‘annihilated’ by Russian attacks

Deputy mayor of southern Ukrainian city says people living in ‘medieval conditions’ after week of continuous shelling

 

[Luckyone]

Bologna imo.


Again: Bologna imo.


And I'm sure thats exactly how pootin views Ukraine.

"Casualties of war".



IMO, it is you that are "blind by choice" my friend. Work on that.

It is a debate board so your "Bologna" answers are BS.

Prove your Bologna negations.

I have shown actual irrefutable pictures (and articles) of innocents being purposely targeted by Russia to "kill the population of Ukraine and not just fight for conquest by fighting troops". Show otherwise!

Explain why people on a bread line with no weapons among them and no aggressive actions from them were shot by Russian soldiers on purpose.

 

[element94]

Saddam Hussein never did a darned thing to me or mine. Having him killed was never a priority of mine.

Good to know you have nothing to do with the Iraqi tribunal.

 

[element94]

From a NATO country? No there shouldn't. Such a strike would be an act of war on Russia, same as if Putin declared Joe Biden a war criminal and sent a Russian ICBM into the White House.

Unless and until Putin intentionally draws NATO blood, NATO should refrain from drawing Russian blood. That said, I am ALL FOR Russians drawing the blood of one of their own who they deem to be the enemy of their country, and Putin certainly is the enemy of the Russian people. I am also ALL FOR Ukrainians sending hit squads into Russian cities and wreaking havoc. Ukrainian blood has obviously been drawn. Ukrainians are absolutely entitled to strike back however they can.

Last time I checked Biden isn't killing civilians, but I get your point.
It's also ongoing violations of the IHL Geneva Conventions in Ukraine since 2014 for which they should be further crippled permanently by all means possible.

 

[Buckeyes85]

Oh look, another pouting Trumpist.
Sounds like a band name, don't it? The Pouting Trumpists. They only play covers of Foreigner and Wings.

The Pouting Trumpists. I love it.
You better go trademark that before I claim it for my local, middle aged dad band.

 

[Buckeyes85]

Except you have not explained in any meaningful way HOW.

Your "Ukraine on Russia's doorstep" argument is bogus and your "Ukraine part of Russia" argument is equally bogus. Got any others or do you agree that Putin is fighting a war of conquest which we were not in Iraq2.

I doubt he's ever going to agree, but the last point is really not debatable.
I was not a fan of the Iraq war, and perhaps you weren't either. But the fact remains the motivations/purpose/outcome of these two conflicts are simply not comparable.

 

[Grand Mal]

The Pouting Trumpists. I love it.
You better go trademark that before I claim it for my local, middle aged dad band.

Have it, just please don't play covers of Foreigner and Wings.

 

[nvflash]

I don't see why it couldn't. We killed many more Iraqi civilians based on lies of similar magnitude and seem to be doing just fine. No reason Russia can't achieve the same.

Those people are not in power here anymore.

W. and Cheney lied and we have to own that, and this war with the Ukraine and Russia is much like that war, both based on lies, but that has no bearing on the US today, we are not under the same regime.

They'll be viewed like we were during Desert Storm. Nuclear armed powers like running roughshod over others while the rest of the world stands largely powerless to stop them. Russia's actions today are just the latest example.

Desert storm was a US lead coalition to stop this same type of aggression. It was a master stroke of diplomacy much like Biden is trying to pull off now.

 

[phoenix2020]

Desert storm was a US lead coalition to stop this same type of aggression. It was a master stroke of diplomacy much like Biden is trying to pull off now.

I agree that this is true from the perspective of American, Canadian, British and Australian residents. I would encourage you to consider whether it was viewed the same by, well, the rest of the world. And note we are talking about Desert Storm, not Desert Shield which was indeed a master stroke of diplomacy by Bush I. Desert Storm was a nuclear power (+ a few friends) invading a sovereign nation and killing tens of thousands of civilians for Reasons.

 

[phoenix2020]

Wrong.

The military action taken by the United States, along with our coalition allies, to force Saddam Hussein’s military out of Kuwait was broadly supported by virtually every democracy around the world.

In fact, the UN resolution approving the use of force was approved by 12 of 15 member nations, with only Cuba and Yemen voting no (China abstained).

I think you are confusing Desert Shield and Desert Storm. I was trying to be quite explicit that I was talking about the latter, which was not about liberating Kuwait (which had already happened) but instead was because of one or more of the following:
- Shrub's daddy issues
- Terrorism red herrings
- WMD red herrings
- We just wanted to stomp on Iraq more forcefully than the last time
- "Regime Change"

Has everyone forgotten that there were two separate wars in that region, one to liberate Kuwait in the early 1990s, and another ten years later to basically do what Russia is doing to Ukraine now? The "Coalition of the Willing" aka. United States and Friends? The war everyone supported in the early 2000s before it was fashionable to say 'maybe let's not invade a sovereign nation because we have a fuzzy photo that we claim means something most of the world disagrees with?'

 

[nvflash]

I agree that this is true from the perspective of American, Canadian, British and Australian residents. I would encourage you to consider whether it was viewed the same by, well, the rest of the world. And note we are talking about Desert Storm, not Desert Shield which was indeed a master stroke of diplomacy by Bush I. Desert Storm was a nuclear power (+ a few friends) invading a sovereign nation and killing tens of thousands of civilians for Reasons.

I think you maybe confusing operation Iraqi Freedom with Desert Storm?

 

[Luce]

Not as long as Putin is in charge.

I think we've all had enough of his shit.

 

[Luce]

Intention is a difficult thing to prove in wartime. There’s little evidence that the United States deliberately targeted the civilian buildings it blew up, but they still blew up. Likewise if you look at it impartially, thus far there’s little evidence that some order was given “let’s blow up that Ukrainian hospital that clearly must be sheltering only civilians” nevertheless it was blown up. Unless you can somehow subpoena everyone in the command chain from order giver to operator and prove that civilIan’s were deliberately targeted, I think this is a strong claim to make that there is a difference.

One apparent difference is that a few weeks into this war, it’s appears as though Russia’s ability to use smart munitions to actually target things is not very good. It would not surprise me if Russia is aiming for one thing and hitting something else, more often than not.

That's one possibility.

The other possibility is that the Russians are being murderous thugs, trying to get the Ukraine to submit via terror attacks and the murder of civilians.

 

[multivita-man]

There are ways Russia could return to a somewhat more normal situation, but I think Putin is irredeemably a Hitler-like war criminal figure, and I hope the world's sanctions continue until there is new leadership that changes things.

Fully agree - sanctions can't just be lifted once there's a tentative armistice. Europe will never be safe as long as Putin is in command, unless he agrees to some concessions first.

There are great practical issues with continuing sanctions, and a lot of innocent Russians are harmed; it's important that the wrong of the country be more important anyway and they're punished, but longer term I'd hope there's a ways to have Russia be a better country and allowed to do ok. There should be a lot of reparations.

Here's a interesting take on sanctions but renowned economist, Thomas Piketty of France.

The western elite is preventing us from going after the assets of Russia’s hyper-rich | Thomas Piketty

Why has no progress been made on an international financial registry? One simple reason: wealthy westerners don’t want one

www.theguardian.com

Let us first recall that the freezing of assets held by Putin and his relatives is already part of the arsenal of sanctions that have been tried for several years.

The problem is that the freezes applied so far remain largely symbolic.

The US and its allies are now considering fully disconnecting Russia from the Swift financial network, which would deprive Russian banks of access to the international system for financial transactions and money transfers. The problem is that such a measure is very poorly targeted.

To bring the Russian state to heel, we must focus sanctions on the thin social layer of multimillionaires upon which the regime relies: a group much larger than a few dozen people, but much narrower than the Russian population in general.

To implement this type of measure, it would be sufficient for western countries to finally set up an international financial registry (also known as a “global financial registry” or GFR) that would keep track of who owns what in the various countries.

So why has no progress still not been made in this direction? For one simple reason: western wealthy people fear that such transparency will ultimately harm them.

This is one of the main contradictions of our time. The confrontation between “democracies” and “autocracies” is overplayed, forgetting that western countries share with Russia and China an unbridled, hyper-capitalist ideology, and a legal, fiscal and political system that is increasingly favourable to large fortunes.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

trying to get the Ukraine to submit via terror attacks and the murder of civilians.

Shock & Awe?

 

[slavablueberryjam]

I don't see any way this could happen.

Russia will be forced to pay reparations to Ukraine and Putin will be found guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity.

They will lose their seat on the UN Security Council.

In short, they'll be viewed as a nation completely out of control.

Too bad the Russian people really have no say in their county's actions.

Looks like the US plan was to kick Russia off of UN Security Council? It's a win situation for them considering Russia can then be stopped through several other means.

 

[phoenix2020]

I think you maybe confusing operation Iraqi Freedom with Desert Storm?

Correct - I stand corrected. My bad. I was intending to refer to Iraqi Freedom and not Desert Storm.

@RaleBulgarian same applies my response to you - apologies and I hope you re-interpret my posts with the right war name

My comments still stand vis-a-vis the 2002-03 war.

 

[Razoo]

China is in bed with Putin

yep .......

 

[RaleBulgarian]

I think you are confusing Desert Shield and Desert Storm. I was trying to be quite explicit that I was talking about the latter, which was not about liberating Kuwait (which had already happened) but instead was because of one or more of the following:
- Shrub's daddy issues
- Terrorism red herrings
- WMD red herrings
- We just wanted to stomp on Iraq more forcefully than the last time
- "Regime Change"

Has everyone forgotten that there were two separate wars in that region, one to liberate Kuwait in the early 1990s, and another ten years later to basically do what Russia is doing to Ukraine now? The "Coalition of the Willing" aka. United States and Friends? The war everyone supported in the early 2000s before it was fashionable to say 'maybe let's not invade a sovereign nation because we have a fuzzy photo that we claim means something most of the world disagrees with?'

Speechless.

Operation Iraqi Freedom

Operation Iraqi Freedom

20 March 2003 marked the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom with preemptive airstrikes on Saddam Hussein’s Presidential Palace and military targets followed by approximately 67,700 “boots on the ground” with 15,000 Navy personnel on ships in the region (Belasco). OIF was authorized when Iraq...

www.history.navy.mil

 

[iguanaman]

All he has to do is say he hates Trump and the liberals would embrace him, believe me!!

Putin owns Trump. Why would he hate him?