Assuming, for a moment, that there is an end to this horror, can a Putin-led Russia ever be included in the civilized world again?

[jnug]

I likewise am amazed by people like you. The fact remains that we invaded a sovereign nation illegally, based on a lie, and killed large numbers of civilians. It was evil, and it was wrong. Did we pay a price for it? Were we permanently excommunicated from civil society? No. We are doing just fine.

Someone asked if Russia can ‘ever again’ freely interact with other nations. My opinion and reply is ‘yes’ they can, because the United States remains an existential proof point that one can invade nations over and over, kill civilizations, destroy infrastructure and commit atrocities, then move on as if none of this ever happened. Your post exemplifies my point. You’ve moved on, and you’ve found a way to rationalize why what Russia is doing is worse than anything we’ve done, and therefore why Russia must remain excluded while we remain included.

Not with Putin in office and that was the question of this thread.

Yes Iraq 2 was a horrible horrible atrocity, fought for all the wrong and false reasons. But we have paid for it in spades, in lives, in treasure in the respect of our allies and neighbors around the world. We have virtually no friends in the Middle East any longer unless you want to consider Saudi a friend. That would be a laugh.

The difference is that we admit that we went in to Iraq for the wrong reasons and without an exit strategy. We admit that we told ourselves massive lies and told the world massive lies. Heck Blinken just admitted it again in front of the UN when he referred to the lies told by Colin Powell in front of the UN. Don't expect Putin to own up to this massive mistake in Ukraine or his savagery in Syria or in Grosny. and if you cannot see the difference between Iraq/US and Ukraine/Russia I will have a hard time helping you.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Putin better hope it goes better than it did for Saddam Hussein who practically had his faced ripped off as a result of his hanging.

Saddam Hussein never did a darned thing to me or mine. Having him killed was never a priority of mine.

 

[Cardinal]

There were multiple incidents of targeting happening in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention the behavior of Blackwater and the other mercenaries we brought in because it turned out that no, it wasn’t going to be a quick little war like we assumed.

Yet we did not become some kind of eternal pariah, and the Russians won’t either.,

I don't need to use vague, twisty wording to point to Putin's deliberate targeting of civilians.

 

[phoenix2020]

We didn't deliberately target civilians.

Intention is a difficult thing to prove in wartime. There’s little evidence that the United States deliberately targeted the civilian buildings it blew up, but they still blew up. Likewise if you look at it impartially, thus far there’s little evidence that some order was given “let’s blow up that Ukrainian hospital that clearly must be sheltering only civilians” nevertheless it was blown up. Unless you can somehow subpoena everyone in the command chain from order giver to operator and prove that civilIan’s were deliberately targeted, I think this is a strong claim to make that there is a difference.

One apparent difference is that a few weeks into this war, it’s appears as though Russia’s ability to use smart munitions to actually target things is not very good. It would not surprise me if Russia is aiming for one thing and hitting something else, more often than not.

 

[Cardinal]

You dont think there were any civilians in Iraq during the Shock & Awe terror attacks? I'll bet there were.

Try reading my post again. A little for slowly this time.

 

[Cardinal]

Intention is a difficult thing to prove in wartime. There’s little evidence that the United States deliberately targeted the civilization buildings it blew up, but they still blew up. Likewise if you look at it impartially, thus far there’s little evidence that some order was given “let’s blow up that Ukrainian hospital that clearly must be sheltering only civilians” nevertheless it was blown up. Unless you can somehow subpoena everyone in the command chain from order to operator and prove that civilizations were deliberately targeted, I think this is a strong claim to make that there is a difference.

One apparent difference is that a few weeks into this war, it’s appears as though Russia’s ability to use smart munitions to actually target things is not very good. It would not surprise me if Russia is aiming for one thing and hitting something else, more often than not.

Do you think Putin is targeting civilians?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

and if you cannot see the difference between Iraq/US and Ukraine/Russia I will have a hard time helping you.

There are "differences", but its basically the same thing. pootin may even have a more reasoned approach to Ukraine than the US ever did to Iraq, after all Ukraine is on his doorstep and was once part of Russia. You're applying a bogus double standard imo.

 

[phoenix2020]

Do you think Putin is targeting civilians?

I’m not sure. I’d be surprised if he were so hands-on that he’s in some command center telling individual operators what dots on a map to fire on. Perhaps he is, but that would surprise me, since the actual offensive doesn’t appear to be well organized at all.

More likely, I think he’s telling his generals to secure territory and eliminate threats, they’re interpreting those broad and vague orders and translating them into vague military actions based on poor information, eventually resulting in some 31 year old being given an order to fire a dumb munition at some general area. Total guess, but that’s mine for what is happening.

What’s yours?

 

[Mr Person]

I said that if he Dresden's the country he'll be an international pariah forever. And sure enough, he's Dresdening the country.

Meh, I don’t know about that. Iraq didn’t look too hot after we smashed Saddam and the insurgency started up but America isn’t an international pariah.

We didn't deliberately target civilians.

Maybe not in the Iraq war, but we bombed and burned ~25,000 civilians to death in Dresden. Not sure exactly how I want to slot that in, but it bears mention.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Try reading my post again. A little for slowly this time.

OK. I read it real slow.

I'll ask again: do you think there were no civilians in Iraq during the Shock & Awe terror attacks?

 

[Mr Person]

I’m not sure. I’d be surprised if he were so hands-on that he’s in some command center telling individual operators what dots on a map to fire on. Perhaps he is, but that would surprise me, since the actual offensive doesn’t appear to be well organized at all.

More likely, I think he’s telling his generals to secure territory and eliminate threats, they’re interpreting those broad and vague orders and translating them into vague military actions based on poor information, eventually resulting in some 31 year old being given an order to fire a dumb munition at some general area. Total guess, but that’s mine for what is happening.

What’s yours?

Why on Earth would you go so far out of your way to invent a scenario in which this is all somehow going on against or without Putin's wishes? It's the same ****ing thing he did the last few times. They're blowing up preschools, residential buildings, hospitals.

They're doing it because that's how Putin has directed Russia's armed forces to behave ever since he took power, and from what I gather it wasn't exactly any sort of deviation from the Soviet norm.


There was a good video of a brief street interview of one of the mayors. Reporter poses a question about how it's said Putin is only targeting military targets. So he points to a destroyed residential building nearby, glances back and forth as if wondering how a person could make those words come out of his mouth when he's standing right in front of the non-military targets, and says "bullshit. Sorry, it is bullshit. . . . this is residential building?"

Watch a few of those, I guess. This kind of thing does not happen en masse by innocent accident

 

[Hypothetical]

so , someone suggest to their congresspeople that we prosecute Bush 2, then.

lets see how that goes.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

I don't see any way this could happen.

It can, and has. Germany was invited to join NATO barely 10 years after VE Day.

Russia will be forced to pay reparations to Ukraine

Forced how?

and Putin will be found guilty of war crimes/crimes against humanity.

Putin will likely never see the inside of the International Criminal Court.

They will lose their seat on the UN Security Council.

There is no mechanism for removing a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

In short, they'll be viewed as a nation completely out of control.

So far, virtually all of the blame for Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine has been properly laid at Putin’s feet.

Too bad the Russian people really have no say in their county's actions.

Very much “too bad”. A point well worth remembering the next time somebody in this forum try’s passing off the lie that Russia is a democracy.

 

[ataraxia]

I always am amazed at people that think like you do. These statements of yours are ridiculous: 1) "We killed many more Iraqi civilians based on lies of similar magnitude and seem to be doing just fine." and 2) "They'll be viewed like we were during Desert Storm. Nuclear armed powers like running roughshod over others while the rest of the world stands largely powerless to stop them"

We never targeted children, women, and old people. If they did die, it was because they were casualties of the war. In some cases, they were errors made that resulted in innocents being killed. Nonetheless, the U.S. never targeted innocents, children, women, or old people. Do I need to show you the difference?

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This is just plain evil and cruelty that CANNOT be forgiven or forgotten. This is on a par with what Hitler did. Hitler was never forgiven or forgotten.

Wars are wars and they are always bad and in many cases, actions that occur are criticizable but there is a big difference. Life is precious and if you have not done anything to earn being targeted, targeting your death is unforgivable. You are way off on your thinking and it is certainly troublesome.

The problem is one of law enforcement. There is no international government with law enforcement capabilities. As long as that's the case, such things will continue to happen like they do in all arenas where there is no formal system of law and order.

 

[Cardinal]

Maybe not in the Iraq war, but we bombed and burned ~25,000 civilians to death in Dresden. Not sure exactly how I want to slot that in, but it bears mention.

I'm pretty aware of that. Much of our understanding of what is and isn't appropriate in war comes out of the wanton bombing...deliberate at worst or reckless at best...during WWII.

 

[Cardinal]

OK. I read it real slow.

I'll ask again: do you think there were no civilians in Iraq during the Shock & Awe terror attacks?

You still didn't read it slowly enough. Good luck.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Assuming, for a moment, that there is an end to this horror, can a Putin-led Russia ever be included in the civilized world again?​

I can't see any possibility of such a thing unless Russia undergoes a rather drastic transformation that favors representative democracy, and of course, reparations to the Ukrainian people.
No, not talking about the kinds of reparations that crippled the German economy after WW1 but Russia will need to make a deal with the world banking community to schedule some kind of payments to Ukraine
as a condition.
Russia's leadership is demonstrating that they are not capable of acting as leaders of a civilized society at this time.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

All he has to do is say he hates Trump and the liberals would embrace him, believe me!!

That was entertaining.
I bet you think Putin is a communist, right?

 

[Luckyone]

The problem is one of law enforcement. There is no international government with law enforcement capabilities. As long as that's the case, such things will continue to happen like they do in all arenas where there is no formal system of law and order.

Unfortunately, it is what it is and that is NOT going to change.

 

[Luckyone]

I likewise am amazed by people like you. The fact remains that we invaded a sovereign nation illegally, based on a lie, and killed large numbers of civilians. It was evil, and it was wrong. Did we pay a price for it? Were we permanently excommunicated from civil society? No. We are doing just fine.

Someone asked if Russia can ‘ever again’ freely interact with other nations. My opinion and reply is ‘yes’ they can, because the United States remains an existential proof point that one can invade nations over and over, kill civilizations, destroy infrastructure and commit atrocities, then move on as if none of this ever happened. Your post exemplifies my point. You’ve moved on, and you’ve found a way to rationalize why what Russia is doing is worse than anything we’ve done, and therefore why Russia must remain excluded while we remain included.

We did not invade a nation based on a lie, we invaded Irag based on misinformation. Our administration truly believed there were weapons of mass destruction there. In addition, we did not "target" civilians for death. Whatever deaths-to-civilians occurred, were mostly because of casualties of war, mistakes, or errors of information. No innocent civilians were targeted.

You keep forgetting the word "targeting" innocents. That is a huge difference between us and what Putin is doing. If you can't see that, then you are blind-by-choice. Proof of the contrary is found everywhere and copiously.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

They'll be viewed like we were during Desert Storm. Nuclear armed powers like running roughshod over others while the rest of the world stands largely powerless to stop them. Russia's actions today are just the latest example.

Wrong.

The military action taken by the United States, along with our coalition allies, to force Saddam Hussein’s military out of Kuwait was broadly supported by virtually every democracy around the world.

In fact, the UN resolution approving the use of force was approved by 12 of 15 member nations, with only Cuba and Yemen voting no (China abstained).

 

[RaleBulgarian]

All he has to do is say he hates Trump and the liberals would embrace him, believe me!!

As much as Loser #45.

 

[lwf]

Putin doesn't care as long as he is funded

On that we can agree. But the Russian people will care when more than half the population drops below the poverty level.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

We did not invade a nation based on a lie, we invaded Irag based on misinformation. Our administration truly believed there were weapons of mass destruction there.

Bologna imo.

In addition, we did not "target" civilians for death

Again: Bologna imo.

Whatever deaths-to-civilians occurred, were mostly because of casualties of war, mistakes, or errors of information.

And I'm sure thats exactly how pootin views Ukraine.

"Casualties of war".

a huge difference between us and what Putin is doing. If you can't see that, then you are blind-by-choice.

IMO, it is you that are "blind by choice" my friend. Work on that.

 

[beancounter]

I think it can be stated beyond a shadow of a doubt that Putin saw no value in winning "heats and minds".

I wonder why?...