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Ask A Pagan

Hoplite

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I've fielded a few PM's from people genuinely curious when I've mentioned I was Pagan. I love talking to people and I'm happy that I get to clear up a lot of misconceptions, but I'd like to do it in a more public light. And also I dont have to keep repeating myself :)

Feel free to ask any questions you want about my beliefs and I'll try my best to answer them.

One thing to keep in mind is that my answers do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of other Pagans. There is a wide array of different paths in Paganism and I am on but one and only one but I have encountered people on the vast majority of them.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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So, what flavor of pagan are you?

I'm an Asatruar, a Germanic reconstructionist, though my beliefs are too heavily influenced by other sources to really be considered a traditionalist.
 

Pal

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So what makes a particular religion pagan anyway if they're all so different? I always thought the term arose as a derogative to refer to any religion practiced in Europe before the spreading of Christianity and didn't actually reflect any one shared set of beliefs or traditions. Is that wrong?
 

Hoplite

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So, what flavor of pagan are you?

I'm an Asatruar, a Germanic reconstructionist, though my beliefs are too heavily influenced by other sources to really be considered a traditionalist.
I dislike using labels simply because it gets ridiculous after a while, I prefer just being called a Pagan and have done with it. But if we really want to go into labels, I would technically be an Eclectic Hellenic Pagan

So what makes a particular religion pagan anyway if they're all so different?
Why can we call Episcopals, Baptists, Evangelicals, Protestants, and Methodists Christian? Different paths are different enough to warrant their own delineations within the larger group however they tend to share some core commonalities and are thus grouped together.

I always thought the term arose as a derogative to refer to any religion practiced in Europe before the spreading of Christianity and didn't actually reflect any one shared set of beliefs or traditions. Is that wrong?
No, it's not wrong. Pagan was, at one time, considered an insult. Like we would use "redneck" or "hillbilly" today. "Pagan" technically means any religion that is not The Big Three, however modern Pagans have adopted the usage of the term to refer to a group of beliefs sharing some common beliefs.
 

Goshin

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I would be curious to know how you came to be a pagan, that is what lead you to this belief: family, friends, research, spiritual experiences... ?
 

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Were you glad when the Giants traded you to Pittsburgh so you could get away from Candlestick?

If you are not named Jose, please ignore this message.
 

TacticalEvilDan

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Feel free to ask any questions you want about my beliefs and I'll try my best to answer them.
As a Pagan, what is your favorite way to cook up a baby?

Personally, I prefer to marinate and barbecue them.

They call them "baby-back ribs" for a reason, after all. :mrgreen:
 

Hoplite

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I would be curious to know how you came to be a pagan, that is what lead you to this belief: family, friends, research, spiritual experiences... ?
Actually it was my own youthful stupidity :)

I got into Paganism the way a lot of people do. I was Christian for a long time but I lost my faith and sort of wandered around the religious landscape for a while. At that time, I was having problems with identity and depression so Paganism seemed to be a way for me to get control over my life, to have some sort of power over my own world. The more I read, the more I talked to people, I found out I was bass-ackwards wrong but what I was finding out appealed to me more than anything I'd found before. I felt a sense of...I guess homecoming is the best term, I felt like I was where I was SUPPOSED to be.

As a Pagan, what is your favorite way to cook up a baby?

Personally, I prefer to marinate and barbecue them.

They call them "baby-back ribs" for a reason, after all. :mrgreen:
Stir fry, I luv's me some Asian food :)
 

First Thought

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Actually it was my own youthful stupidity :)

I got into Paganism the way a lot of people do. I was Christian for a long time but I lost my faith and sort of wandered around the religious landscape for a while. At that time, I was having problems with identity and depression so Paganism seemed to be a way for me to get control over my life, to have some sort of power over my own world. The more I read, the more I talked to people, I found out I was bass-ackwards wrong but what I was finding out appealed to me more than anything I'd found before. I felt a sense of...I guess homecoming is the best term, I felt like I was where I was SUPPOSED to be.
I can relate. When I found Buddhism, I told a friend that it felt like I was "home" again. Good luck on your spiritual journey :)
 

HLimen

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Actually it was my own youthful stupidity

I got into Paganism the way a lot of people do. I was Christian for a long time but I lost my faith and sort of wandered around the religious landscape for a while. At that time, I was having problems with identity and depression so Paganism seemed to be a way for me to get control over my life, to have some sort of power over my own world. The more I read, the more I talked to people, I found out I was bass-ackwards wrong but what I was finding out appealed to me more than anything I'd found before. I felt a sense of...I guess homecoming is the best term, I felt like I was where I was SUPPOSED to be.
Please understand that I am approaching this topic with the goal of facilitating an honest exchange of ideas in a non-aggressive manner. I believe the biggest mistake that is made when discussing the realm of comparative theology is the critical error of succumbing to emotion and throwing logical thought to the wayside.

To shed some understanding on my context I should first say that I am a Biblical based, born-again Christian. I do not subscribe to any denomination. I also do not frequent any one church. I view the splintering of the church over the course of history into various sects as the work of the enemy with one exception, and that exception would be the getting away from the oppressive and pagan-infiltrated catholic church. When I use the word pagan I consider it synonymous with Luciferian; whether you wish to admit it or not you have bought into a belief system that places you as sovereign over all things in your life. This means that you have eliminated your Creator from the equation and turned your back on God the Father.

You state that you were a "Christian",but you lost your faith. I find this profoundly interesting; especially since you ultimately ended up buying into a belief system that places you as your own "god" of your existence.

Again, let me point out that I am not attacking you or being hostile in any manner. I do have some problems with this statement that I feel compelled to point out. Assuming you were a "Christian", you would have to have been taught the fundamental doctrines of scripture in an exceedingly bad way. Either that or you were never exposed to the immutable truth of fundamental bible-based doctrine.

Have you ever stopped to examine the various buffet of theologies out there? Whether you consider all of the esoteric/occult or all of the mainstream "religions" out there I find it striking that there is one common thread that runs through all of them. They are all designed to tickle your ear and play into your pride by placing you in a mindset of pseudosuperiority. They also place you into a position of near omniscient authority. Most people forget that the first sin was actually in heaven, and that the sin which was committed was that of pride.

"Oh I'm much smarter than those mindless sheep."

Of course the more you read the more you will find pagan literature appealing. That is how it is designed. The things you don't hear, though, are the things that are the most important. Have you ever stopped and thought for a split-second about where your spiritual energy (in the form of worship of either yourself or false pagan entities) is going ? I would like to remind you that when Lucifer fell into rebellion he took alongside of him one third of the angelic hierarchy. It should also be noted that at the top of his priority list is receiving worship (either directly or through proxy/clandestine means) from the human race is his top priority.

I could easily argue a case with profound evidence that every poly/pan/etc. theistic theological system out there that does not fall in line with the Old and New Testaments (depending upon their historical context) is the work of none other than Lucifer and his fallen host. Have you ever stopped to think about exactly where your pagan belief system has come from throughout the scope of time ? Even Nebuchadnezzar was converted from false pagan beliefs into, in his time, the true religion of the original covenant. What do you think the plagues of Exodus were all about ? What do you think the Bible is illustrating when God allows pharaoh's sorcerers to mimic all of the plagues up until a certain point ? If you were to study the Egyptian theological hierarchy of the time you would realize that each of the plagues were direct attacks on the major Egyptian deities of the time, and that the accounts of Exodus were essentially God the Father versus Lucifer : round one.

The reason I point all of this out is because the same place the Egyptians got their false religion is the same place that you have gotten yours. If you choose to cherry pick and ignore the rest of my post, the only question I have is why did you turn your back on the truth ?

I tend to end up chasing rabbits when I discuss these topics in any medium besides an active conversation, so I apologize for the length of the post :)
 

Arch Enemy

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Given the event that you're wrong in your belief, and that one of the monotheist religions are right...

whose hell would you want to go to, and why?
 

Hoplite

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Please understand that I am approaching this topic with the goal of facilitating an honest exchange of ideas in a non-aggressive manner. I believe the biggest mistake that is made when discussing the realm of comparative theology is the critical error of succumbing to emotion and throwing logical thought to the wayside.
I'll keep it in mind...

To shed some understanding on my context I should first say that I am a Biblical based, born-again Christian. I do not subscribe to any denomination. I also do not frequent any one church. I view the splintering of the church over the course of history into various sects as the work of the enemy with one exception, and that exception would be the getting away from the oppressive and pagan-infiltrated catholic church.
Heh, trust me, the Catholics may ACT Pagan, but they're still Catholics.

When I use the word pagan I consider it synonymous with Luciferian; whether you wish to admit it or not you have bought into a belief system that places you as sovereign over all things in your life. This means that you have eliminated your Creator from the equation and turned your back on God the Father.
Paganism is not Luciferian for several reasons.

First, Pagans do not recognize the devil as a deific figure nor do they pay him respect, worship, or even attention. He is not a part of the Pagan shroud of beliefs.

Second, Pagans do not believe they are sovereign over all things in our lives. We are told to attempt to be harmonious with the world around us, to find balance, and not to try and dominate everything.

You state that you were a "Christian",but you lost your faith. I find this profoundly interesting; especially since you ultimately ended up buying into a belief system that places you as your own "god" of your existence.
Again, we do not consider ourselves our own "gods." The vast majority of Pagans worship several gods and Pagans with any wisdom realize that the gifts that are granted come with a responsibility not to misuse them.

Again, let me point out that I am not attacking you or being hostile in any manner. I do have some problems with this statement that I feel compelled to point out. Assuming you were a "Christian", you would have to have been taught the fundamental doctrines of scripture in an exceedingly bad way. Either that or you were never exposed to the immutable truth of fundamental bible-based doctrine.
I discarded the bible and the church because I felt both were tainted with the touch of man. There was no way to really verify if the bible was written by man so it was safer to discard it as a creation of man and try to act as Jesus-like as possible. It's a bit of an unorthodox approach, but it seemed to be working for years.

Have you ever stopped to examine the various buffet of theologies out there? Whether you consider all of the esoteric/occult or all of the mainstream "religions" out there I find it striking that there is one common thread that runs through all of them. They are all designed to tickle your ear and play into your pride by placing you in a mindset of pseudosuperiority. They also place you into a position of near omniscient authority. Most people forget that the first sin was actually in heaven, and that the sin which was committed was that of pride.
That's not strictly true. Many promise rewards, but I wouldn't say they all promise a form of superiority. I can definitely see which ones do, but I would hardly say that that is a common theme in all religions.

Of course the more you read the more you will find pagan literature appealing. That is how it is designed. The things you don't hear, though, are the things that are the most important. Have you ever stopped and thought for a split-second about where your spiritual energy (in the form of worship of either yourself or false pagan entities) is going ? I would like to remind you that when Lucifer fell into rebellion he took alongside of him one third of the angelic hierarchy. It should also be noted that at the top of his priority list is receiving worship (either directly or through proxy/clandestine means) from the human race is his top priority.
Seems a pretty needlessly roundabout way to do it. Most of what I learned about being Pagan I learned from other Pagans.

I could easily argue a case with profound evidence that every poly/pan/etc. theistic theological system out there that does not fall in line with the Old and New Testaments (depending upon their historical context) is the work of none other than Lucifer and his fallen host. Have you ever stopped to think about exactly where your pagan belief system has come from throughout the scope of time ? Even Nebuchadnezzar was converted from false pagan beliefs into, in his time, the true religion of the original covenant. What do you think the plagues of Exodus were all about ? What do you think the Bible is illustrating when God allows pharaoh's sorcerers to mimic all of the plagues up until a certain point ? If you were to study the Egyptian theological hierarchy of the time you would realize that each of the plagues were direct attacks on the major Egyptian deities of the time, and that the accounts of Exodus were essentially God the Father versus Lucifer : round one.
The plagues of Exodus had a naturalistic explanation that can be traced back to the eruption of Santorini in 1,500 BC

I'm all about things un-natural...but I'm not going to slap a supernatural sticker on something we can prove had a naturalistic explanation.

The reason I point all of this out is because the same place the Egyptians got their false religion is the same place that you have gotten yours. If you choose to cherry pick and ignore the rest of my post, the only question I have is why did you turn your back on the truth ?
I would answer that by saying I didnt, the truth turned it's back on me. I ended up in a very bad place some years ago and I prayed to God for something, anything, that would tell me that things would eventually be ok and that I could get through it. The next day the situation took a decidedly southerly turn and continued to get worse.

I interpreted that as the divine version of a middle finger. I had been a good person, attempted to emulate Jesus, and that was the response when I asked for the most basic of help?

It was that and wrestling with the idea of eternal life and why I should want it.

This guy put up a video the other day that lays out what I was struggling with pretty well
YouTube - Why do I want to live forever in heaven?

Since that time, I've learned to draw inspiration and enjoyment from whatever corner I could find it :) I listen to Sami Yusuf and the next song in the playlist is a Gregorian chant for crying out loud :D
 
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Hoplite

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Given the event that you're wrong in your belief, and that one of the monotheist religions are right...

whose hell would you want to go to, and why?
Hell doesnt sound fun regardless how you package it, but if I had my choice I'd probably go to the Christian hell.

One angel who has already tried to rebel and millions of other souls....sounds like an army to me :)
 

liblady

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in general terms, what do you believe?
 

Hoplite

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in general terms, what do you believe?
In generalities, I believe in multiple gods and the golden rule, reincarnation and the ability of the human will to change the world around it.

Anything more specific and I'll need more specific questions :)
 

HLimen

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I'll keep it in mind...

Heh, trust me, the Catholics may ACT Pagan, but they're still Catholics.
Since I have already established that I am in no way attacking or being aggressive, I will be speaking more "matter of factly" for the remainder of my participation in this thread.

Without derailing the thread, I'll just say that I do agree that Catholics are Catholics. I also know that Catholics are not Bible based Christians. The easiest thing to point at for this is that they have had to rewrite the Bible to fit their warped doctrines and they are way too dogmatic which results in their hierarchy being unquestionable.

Challenging my faith is one of the primary reasons why it has grown as well as my relationship with God. Blind faith is weak faith, and that is nothing more than a stereotype that is applied to all of Christendom because there are, sadly enough, tons of people out there claiming to be Christians when they have no idea what it is really about.

Paganism is not Luciferian for several reasons.

First, Pagans do not recognize the devil as a deific figure nor do they pay him respect, worship, or even attention. He is not a part of the Pagan shroud of beliefs.

Second, Pagans do not believe they are sovereign over all things in our lives. We are told to attempt to be harmonious with the world around us, to find balance, and not to try and dominate everything.

Again, we do not consider ourselves our own "gods." The vast majority of Pagans worship several gods and Pagans with any wisdom realize that the gifts that are granted come with a responsibility not to misuse them.
I would like to humbly suggest that you look into what the Luciferian doctrine actually entails. Recognizing Lucifer/Satan specifically as a deity residing over your theology is not a prerequisite to falling into the doctrine.

Let me quote Albert Pike's definition of subscribing to the Luciferian doctrine : " The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry."

I choose to quote this individual because he, unlike the myriad of other pagan literature which is too afraid to actually address the top levels of what they promote because they know no one will buy into what they sell if they did, actually lays it out in plain language.

It should be noted that subscribing to Lucifer's doctrine in no way entails directly acknowledging Lucifer or Satan; simply negating God the Father is all that is required. Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant because that is the ugly truth which most Godless people willfully make themselves ignorant of.

As I have previously stated, you are directing your worship toward a fallen demonic host whose main objective is to subvert God the Father and His only Son : Jesus Christ. Why do you think Jesus had to do what he did ? It's because before the work on the cross was completed Lucifer could easily say to God, " You are a just God, and we both know that. I am in rebellion and I know that I will end up in the lake of fire; however, man is also in rebellion and if You are truly just : then they must be cast into the lake with me."

Denying God the Father his rightful dues is in direct conflict with the Golden Rule. Why do you think when asked what the most important commandment is Jesus did not respond by reciting the entirety of the law ?

I do believe that you receive gifts from these entities that you worship. The thing that you are not realizing though is that they do that just to draw you further and further into the trap. Logically, you do not first earn trust by lying or not giving someone a reason to keep buying into what you offer.
I discarded the bible and the church because I felt both were tainted with the touch of man. There was no way to really verify if the bible was written by man so it was safer to discard it as a creation of man and try to act as Jesus-like as possible. It's a bit of an unorthodox approach, but it seemed to be working for years.
The Bible was written by man via the direct inspiration of God in the form of the Holy Spirit. I disagree with your assertion that there is no way to verify the bible. Without getting into a massive post to articulate the immutable truth of the Word of God, I will simply say that the most blatant way to verify the Bible is to simply study prophecy. The easiest example would be the book of Daniel, which many secular scholars try to claim could in no way have been written at the actual date that it was because of its explicit accuracy in predicting future events. These same scholars conveniently neglect to acknowledge the translation of the OT into Greek (the Septuagint) which included the book of Daniel. Interestingly enough Jesus Himself specifically verifies the authenticity of Daniel, and several other OT prophets are verified in the NT such as Isaiah, Elijah etc.

That's not strictly true. Many promise rewards, but I wouldn't say they all promise a form of superiority. I can definitely see which ones do, but I would hardly say that that is a common theme in all religions.

Seems a pretty needlessly roundabout way to do it. Most of what I learned about being Pagan I learned from other Pagans.

The plagues of Exodus had a naturalistic explanation that can be traced back to the eruption of Santorini in 1,500 BC

I'm all about things un-natural...but I'm not going to slap a supernatural sticker on something we can prove had a naturalistic explanation.
It may seem "needlessly roundabout" , but I would suggest that you think about it on a deep level. Approach it from the perspective of Lucifer, the king of all lies and deception. If you were attempting to subvert God the Father's plan of salvation for mankind, then you would obviously not be blatant about it when you set up false belief systems. Likewise : if you counterfeit a $100 bill you are not going to place a yellow smiley face in the middle instead of Benjamin Franklin.

Your "explanation" of the plagues is very superficial, so I will offer a superficial rebuttal based upon yours. Assuming they were brought about by natural disasters, how do you know that God the Father was not the one who brought those natural disasters into taking place ? The very same secular realm of science is the one that has sold mankind so many myths it amazes me that people place more faith in it than in the Word of God. I should point out that all of the myths associated with coming from the Word of God are the work of man and not of God because the Father does not lie.

I would answer that by saying I didnt, the truth turned it's back on me. I ended up in a very bad place some years ago and I prayed to God for something, anything, that would tell me that things would eventually be ok and that I could get through it. The next day the situation took a decidedly southerly turn and continued to get worse.

I interpreted that as the divine version of a middle finger. I had been a good person, attempted to emulate Jesus, and that was the response when I asked for the most basic of help?
Have you ever heard of the saying " praying through " ? I would humbly suggest that you read the book of Daniel for an explicit example of this. Daniel prayed , and it took him 21 days to receive an answer from an angel which was dispatched the moment that Daniel prayed. The angel was intercepted by demonic interference on his way to Daniel (the same demonic forces that you now worship interestingly enough) and Michael had to assist him so that he could get through to Daniel.

I would also like to recommend that you read the book of Job. The ONLY reason that God the Father allows tribulation and testing of His people is to test them and build their character. I specifically use the word "allows" because nothing happens without his foreknowledge and approval. The book of Job is a perfect example of this and it also illustrates that Lucifer presently still has access to the heavenly realm which is God's dwelling place. Many people falsely believe that he has been permanently cast out of heaven.

It is my personal belief, I label it as that since there is no irrefutable scriptural corroboration for it, that Satan's current kingdom resides between the earth and the heavenly dwelling place of God the Father. The reason I believe this is because when you get into the greek/hebrew of the scriptures that describe the heavens they are always plural. "Heaven" is not one place, and there are at least three heavens spoken of in the Bible.

To put it simply, and I am not accusing or attacking you, I believe that you turned your back on God at the very time that you should have been compelled to draw closer to Him.
It was that and wrestling with the idea of eternal life and why I should want it.

This guy put up a video the other day that lays out what I was struggling with pretty well
YouTube - Why do I want to live forever in heaven?

Since that time, I've learned to draw inspiration and enjoyment from whatever corner I could find it :) I listen to Sami Yusuf and the next song in the playlist is a Gregorian chant for crying out loud :D
I was wondering if you could point out to me any Bible verse that describes the new heaven and new earth that will be inherited by the righteous in explicit detail ? That was a trick question so I will save you some time : there are none.

The only verses that describe heaven simply say that it is incomprehensible to us in our current forms; therefore, it is impossible to know what the kingdom will be like. They only describe it as being perfect and a place where death does not exist. Since the end result of sin is death (death of respect, self respect, or literal death as in an end of your life), it is only logical to conclude that there will be no sin in the new heaven and earth. Contrary to popular belief, this does not mean that there will be no enjoyment there.

The truth is actually quite the opposite, and the most common myth that Lucifer instills in the minds of mankind is that heaven will be a place of eternal oppression in the form of enforced worship toward God the Father and Jesus Christ. He also likes to deceive people into thinking that hell will be an endless time of partying, drunkenness, etc. I pray that eventually that myth will be dispelled from anyone whom it currently deceives.

I encounter this delusion a lot, and it was something that I myself struggled with for some time. The idea of kneeling down with my face to the ground for eternity does not seem enjoyable. It is also a good thing that this is not what heaven will be like, but ,sadly, most people do not bother putting in the work to figure that much out.

In conclusion, I would like to point out that the Word of God is a spiritually discerned book. Since I believe that one thing we can both agree upon is that there is indeed a spiritual realm beyond our sensory perception a majority of the time, I would like to encourage you to reexamine the Word of God and pray for wisdom from Jesus Christ. Regardless of what you do, just remember that God will never turn His back on you as you have done to Him.
 

Hoplite

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Without derailing the thread, I'll just say that I do agree that Catholics are Catholics. I also know that Catholics are not Bible based Christians. The easiest thing to point at for this is that they have had to rewrite the Bible to fit their warped doctrines and they are way too dogmatic which results in their hierarchy being unquestionable.
Ehhhhhyeah I'll leave that one for the Catholics to field.

I would like to humbly suggest that you look into what the Luciferian doctrine actually entails. Recognizing Lucifer/Satan specifically as a deity residing over your theology is not a prerequisite to falling into the doctrine.
Worshiping something you dont believe in seems a little...well...contradictory.

Let me quote Albert Pike's definition of subscribing to the Luciferian doctrine : " The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry."
Considering I'm not an atheist or an idolator, I'm in pretty good shape.

It should be noted that subscribing to Lucifer's doctrine in no way entails directly acknowledging Lucifer or Satan; simply negating God the Father is all that is required. Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant because that is the ugly truth which most Godless people willfully make themselves ignorant of.
So, if you do subscribe, this can only be pointed out by others, or what? That seems a little... convenient.

As I have previously stated, you are directing your worship toward a fallen demonic host whose main objective is to subvert God the Father and His only Son : Jesus Christ.
Incorrect, I am directing my worship at Athena, goddess of wisdom and Aphrodite, goddess of love and sexuality.

Denying God the Father his rightful dues is in direct conflict with the Golden Rule. Why do you think when asked what the most important commandment is Jesus did not respond by reciting the entirety of the law ?
The Golden Rule FAR pre-dates Christianity and says nothing about God, dont try to co-opt things that arent yours.

I do believe that you receive gifts from these entities that you worship. The thing that you are not realizing though is that they do that just to draw you further and further into the trap. Logically, you do not first earn trust by lying or not giving someone a reason to keep buying into what you offer.
It seems counter-productive to protect and nurture the person you are trying to corrupt. Why not just kill me when I lose my faith, why string it out for years?

The Bible was written by man via the direct inspiration of God in the form of the Holy Spirit. I disagree with your assertion that there is no way to verify the bible. Without getting into a massive post to articulate the immutable truth of the Word of God, I will simply say that the most blatant way to verify the Bible is to simply study prophecy. The easiest example would be the book of Daniel, which many secular scholars try to claim could in no way have been written at the actual date that it was because of its explicit accuracy in predicting future events. These same scholars conveniently neglect to acknowledge the translation of the OT into Greek (the Septuagint) which included the book of Daniel. Interestingly enough Jesus Himself specifically verifies the authenticity of Daniel, and several other OT prophets are verified in the NT such as Isaiah, Elijah etc.
Except we have DOZENS of other gospels that are NOT included, one of which was written by (or from the words of) Mary herself. Why were all these texts discarded?

Additionally, we KNOW the bible has been changed several times in history. King James changed it when he created the Church of England and there are a myriad of translation changes that creep into texts through the centuries.

It may seem "needlessly roundabout" , but I would suggest that you think about it on a deep level. Approach it from the perspective of Lucifer, the king of all lies and deception. If you were attempting to subvert God the Father's plan of salvation for mankind, then you would obviously not be blatant about it when you set up false belief systems. Likewise : if you counterfeit a $100 bill you are not going to place a yellow smiley face in the middle instead of Benjamin Franklin.
Ok, WHY is Lucifer trying to do this?

Your "explanation" of the plagues is very superficial, so I will offer a superficial rebuttal based upon yours. Assuming they were brought about by natural disasters, how do you know that God the Father was not the one who brought those natural disasters into taking place ? The very same secular realm of science is the one that has sold mankind so many myths it amazes me that people place more faith in it than in the Word of God. I should point out that all of the myths associated with coming from the Word of God are the work of man and not of God because the Father does not lie.
I'd ask why your god has to play dominoes. If Zeus wishes to show his displeasure, he splits the mother****ing sky open. None of this dicking around with chaos theory.

Have you ever heard of the saying " praying through " ? I would humbly suggest that you read the book of Daniel for an explicit example of this. Daniel prayed , and it took him 21 days to receive an answer from an angel which was dispatched the moment that Daniel prayed. The angel was intercepted by demonic interference on his way to Daniel (the same demonic forces that you now worship interestingly enough) and Michael had to assist him so that he could get through to Daniel.
That seems like waiting for your god to solve your problems for you, I disagree with that now and I disagreed with that when I was Christian; the gods help those who help themselves.

I would also like to recommend that you read the book of Job. The ONLY reason that God the Father allows tribulation and testing of His people is to test them and build their character. I specifically use the word "allows" because nothing happens without his foreknowledge and approval. The book of Job is a perfect example of this and it also illustrates that Lucifer presently still has access to the heavenly realm which is God's dwelling place. Many people falsely believe that he has been permanently cast out of heaven.
Job was one reason I discarded the bible. Allowing someone to be tormented to prove a point to someone who probably isnt going to agree with you regardless of the outcome isnt exactly in line with a loving deity.

It is my personal belief, I label it as that since there is no irrefutable scriptural corroboration for it, that Satan's current kingdom resides between the earth and the heavenly dwelling place of God the Father. The reason I believe this is because when you get into the greek/hebrew of the scriptures that describe the heavens they are always plural. "Heaven" is not one place, and there are at least three heavens spoken of in the Bible.

To put it simply, and I am not accusing or attacking you, I believe that you turned your back on God at the very time that you should have been compelled to draw closer to Him.
Why should I try to feel close to someone who I didnt feel close to. I felt alienated from your god, I felt like I had a father who was always away on business but who expected hugs and kisses when he got back.

I was wondering if you could point out to me any Bible verse that describes the new heaven and new earth that will be inherited by the righteous in explicit detail ? That was a trick question so I will save you some time : there are none.

The only verses that describe heaven simply say that it is incomprehensible to us in our current forms; therefore, it is impossible to know what the kingdom will be like. They only describe it as being perfect and a place where death does not exist. Since the end result of sin is death (death of respect, self respect, or literal death as in an end of your life), it is only logical to conclude that there will be no sin in the new heaven and earth. Contrary to popular belief, this does not mean that there will be no enjoyment there.
That still sounds like a nightmare for me. I dont WANT perfection, I dont WANT to live forever, even if it is in happiness.

In conclusion, I would like to point out that the Word of God is a spiritually discerned book. Since I believe that one thing we can both agree upon is that there is indeed a spiritual realm beyond our sensory perception a majority of the time, I would like to encourage you to reexamine the Word of God and pray for wisdom from Jesus Christ. Regardless of what you do, just remember that God will never turn His back on you as you have done to Him.
I have read the bible and I received no inspiration, no insight, and no feelings of understanding from it.

There was a story from the Conquistadors when they invaded South America. A priest was speaking to a native shaman and he handed the shaman the bible and said "This is our book, it contains within it the word of God." The shaman examined the book very closely, he turned the pages carefully and looked through it. After a few minutes, he shook his head and asked "Then why does it not speak to me?" And he threw the book on the ground.

I've received more wisdom and understanding out of books like the Hagakure and writings on philosophy than I ever received from the bible.
 

HLimen

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Interesting how you have chosen to skip over quoting me when I said the following :

Why do you think Jesus had to do what he did ? It's because before the work on the cross was completed Lucifer could easily say to God, " You are a just God, and we both know that. I am in rebellion and I know that I will end up in the lake of fire; however, man is also in rebellion and if You are truly just : then they must be cast into the lake with me."
Also very interesting how incredibly deceived you are in regards to Athena / Aphrodite. I assume you have no counter point to the truth of those names being nothing but proxies or clandestine routes for fallen angels to receive spiritual energy from makind in the form of worship.

The reason why many of the other "gospels" are not in the Bible is because a vast majority of them originate from the Gnostic capital of the time, Alexandria Egypt and were skillfully deceitful in how they minutely distorted the Word of God.

I was referncing the Golden Rule from the context of my beliefs which are based in immutable truth.

Do you realize how much of a paradox it is to reference a shaman's (high priest of fallen hosts) reaction to the Bible ? I suggest that you humble yourself and seek wisdom from the only source of truth.

Since you have proven that you will selectively cherry pick which points you choose to address you have illustrated your unwillingness to facilitate an honest exchange of ideas. I believe I will be bringing my participation in this thread to a close now. Maybe one day I'll find an honest pagan to discuss these matters with.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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Also very interesting how incredibly deceived you are in regards to Athena / Aphrodite. I assume you have no counter point to the truth of those names being nothing but proxies or clandestine routes for fallen angels to receive spiritual energy from makind in the form of worship.
You have no proof of this outside the Bible; even if it is the true word of God, as its followers proclaim, it is only the word of your god. Why should we take the word of your god over the words of ours? The gods I worship are not the servants of your god, fallen or otherwise; there is no mention of your god in the holy words they have given us. If our gods were truly your fallen angels, would they not have spoken out against your god? Would they not have attempted to claim him false, in order to discredit him?

There are many gods in this world, as your god wisely noted in his own words to his chosen people. He did not claim that they were false then; he only demanded that his chosen people, his followers, worship him above all others. Proclaiming the other gods to be fallen angels, agents of your Satan, is the work of priests-- men acting from a secular need for political authority over the hearts and minds of other men.


Since you have proven that you will selectively cherry pick which points you choose to address you have illustrated your unwillingness to facilitate an honest exchange of ideas. I believe I will be bringing my participation in this thread to a close now. Maybe one day I'll find an honest pagan to discuss these matters with.
You have already found one. You've given no reason, and I have found none of my own, to question Hoplite's integrity in matters of faith. What good would it do to other honest pagans, when you will only ascribe false motives to their words? How can you expect to have an honest conversation of religious belief when you expect deference to your religious beliefs that you will not grant to theirs?
 

Hoplite

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Interesting how you have chosen to skip over quoting me when I said the following
Because there really isnt anything to say in regards to it.

The reason why many of the other "gospels" are not in the Bible is because a vast majority of them originate from the Gnostic capital of the time, Alexandria Egypt and were skillfully deceitful in how they minutely distorted the Word of God.
Have you read them?

I was referncing the Golden Rule from the context of my beliefs which are based in immutable truth.
Not being a psychic, I dont know what your beliefs are.

Do you realize how much of a paradox it is to reference a shaman's (high priest of fallen hosts) reaction to the Bible ? I suggest that you humble yourself and seek wisdom from the only source of truth.
I did, and I found it lacking.

Since you have proven that you will selectively cherry pick which points you choose to address you have illustrated your unwillingness to facilitate an honest exchange of ideas. I believe I will be bringing my participation in this thread to a close now. Maybe one day I'll find an honest pagan to discuss these matters with.
Ok, this is blindingly ironic, I cherry pick because there is a lot of what you say that there is no real response to it. We have wildly differing views and your attitude does not suggest you'd be receptive to anything I said, so why should I waste my time trying to carefully prepare a response that wont be read or taken seriously?
 

Panache

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You have no proof of this outside the Bible; even if it is the true word of God, as its followers proclaim, it is only the word of your god.
Outside the bible? Hell, that nonsense isn't even IN the bible.
 

Arcana XV

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Since you have proven that you will selectively cherry pick which points you choose to address you have illustrated your unwillingness to facilitate an honest exchange of ideas. I believe I will be bringing my participation in this thread to a close now. Maybe one day I'll find an honest pagan to discuss these matters with.
The core of your argument is to label any belief other than yours as "devil worship". That is your entire argument in a nutshell. There is really nothing to discuss with someone who believes all other belief systems are intrinsically tied to the negative, reviled side of their own. The irony here is that by behaving this way you are actually doing Satan's work by antagonizing people away from your faith and your god. Ever heard of the saying "You catch more flies with honey..." ?

Just saying...
 

liblady

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wow...you really seem to know everything. how does allowing a child to contract a life ending disease, say at age 3, build his character? rubbish.

btw, your remarks about catholics are offensive. other than the apocrypha, what is the difference in bibles? and who is to say that YOUR interpretation of the bible is the correct one? lutherans, for example, believe nearly everything catholics do. what is so warped about catholicism?
 

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Interesting how you have chosen to skip over quoting me when I said the following :

Also very interesting how incredibly deceived you are in regards to Athena / Aphrodite. I assume you have no counter point to the truth of those names being nothing but proxies or clandestine routes for fallen angels to receive spiritual energy from makind in the form of worship.
That's a lot of poor word choice for someone trying not to be hostile...

The reason why many of the other "gospels" are not in the Bible is because a vast majority of them originate from the Gnostic capital of the time, Alexandria Egypt and were skillfully deceitful in how they minutely distorted the Word of God.
I'm glad you have your opinions, but to state them as if they were facts will get us nowhere.
 

Hoplite

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Sad that this thread got derailed in this way, I'd like to try and push it back on track
 
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