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As it applies to the abortion issue.

Chuz Life

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Inspired by a comment that Prom just made;
The definition of life has not been established and short of both sides agreeing on that it is possible that cherries and watermelons are being compared while arguing which is a legume?
Fair question.

As it pertains to the abortion debate,.... how do you 'define life?'

What definition do you use?

Please support your definition with references.
 

iangb

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You first. I've been waiting for this for a year now.

EDIT: Ever since here. Call it 53 weeks.

Chuz said:
That's just it, I don't "define life" Iangb.

Neither do I (nor anyone else, IMO) need to 'define life' in order to conclude that an "individual's" life begins at the moment of their conception.
 
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Chuz Life

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You first. I've been waiting for this for a year now.

EDIT: Ever since here. Call it 53 weeks.
What do you mean, me first?

You don't need to see mine to post your own.

Post your own.

I'm reading several and trying to find the one that best sums up my basis as it applies to why I believe an individual's life begins at conception.

Why do You need to see mine to know what your definition is?

"You first?"

What is this? Elementary school?
 

hazlnut

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Inspired by a comment that Prom just made;


Fair question.

As it pertains to the abortion debate,.... how do you 'define life?'

What definition do you use?

Please support your definition with references.
You ask for our definition of 'life' but make backing it up with an external definition a precondition... or maybe I didn't understand the (retarded) question.

Anyway -- Life... Um... Oh, I got it!!!

Electric word life
It means forever and that's a mighty long time
But I'm here 2 tell u
There's something else
The afterworld

A world of never ending happiness
U can always see the sun, day or night

So when u call up that shrink in Beverly Hills
U know the one - Dr Everything'll Be Alright
Instead of asking him how much of your time is left
Ask him how much of your mind, baby

'Cuz in this life
Things are much harder than in the afterworld
In this life
You're on your own


The Purple Man sums it up beautifully. YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN...

Life = self-sustaining existence.

And if de-elevator tries 2 bring u down
Go crazy - punch a higher floor
 

mac

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Chuz, I think you should have narrowed down "define life" to Human life. Prom is going to start talking about Kudzu and turkeys, while Iangb is going to claim that killing a cockroach makes any definition you give hypocritical.

Just sayin....
 

Chuz Life

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You ask for our definition of 'life' but make backing it up with an external definition a precondition... or maybe I didn't understand the (retarded) question. <snip>
/ignore (just so I don't ever have to read that again)
 
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Chuz Life

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Chuz, I think you should have narrowed down "define life" to Human life. Prom is going to start talking about Kudzu and turkeys, while Iangb is going to claim that killing a cockroach makes any definition you give hypocritical.

Just sayin....
I hear you,... but they would only be doing so at a cost to their own credibility.
 
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Chuz Life

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Inspired by a comment that Prom just made;


Fair question.

As it pertains to the abortion debate,.... how do you 'define life?'

What definition do you use?

Please support your definition with references.
This definition works well enough for me for now;

LIFE;

1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

And I would like to add that I find it especially applicable when used in conjunction with this definition;

Life Cycle;

1. The course of developmental changes through which an organism passes from its inception as a fertilized zygote to the mature state in which another zygote may be produced.

Emphasis is mine.
 

prometeus

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I'm reading several and trying to find the one that best sums up my basis as it applies to why I believe an individual's life begins at conception.
When you mentioned before that you are starting this thread, I was genuinely looking forward to it and I too hoped that you, since you had the idea and did start the topic, would have put forth your position too. Then I just read iangb's post, particularly the quote in it and it gave me pause and then your post, as quoted above.
What is it that you need to read to decide? I am curious.
None the less here is what I think.

It is safe to assume that what life is in the simplest form is not in debate and anyone with the least curiosity can find some basic and adequate enough definition. I also do not believe that life alone is a determining factor in just about anything. Life becomes important when it has significance. For instance, if one has a pet, say a dog, one will value the life of THAT dog way over the cow that dies for the dinner steak. No different with the life of a friend, relative or even like thinking person, over the life of a criminal about to be executed or terrorist. We value the lives of the children that are closer to us and are willing to risk our lives in feats of heroism to save even one life, yet are often indifferent to the countless children who die due to lack of clean drinking water, disease, famine etc. in some distant land.
Society, in practice at least, does not really care, nor is aware of the countless fetuses that are developing at any given time. We do not care for their well being since we obviously do very little if anything for it. Sure, the pregnant woman and her partner do, in ideal situations and their immediate family, but clearly that is more than anything on an emotional level and there is nothing wrong with that.
So, what life is, beyond acknowledging the biological function, is not really important, but wen is it significant is. It is also important to whom it is significant, just the immediate family or beyond that to society, because based on that importance are the attitudes toward it formulated.
 
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iangb

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Having thought about it...

'Life' isn't the issue here; as I've said many times before, sperm cells are alive, and a corpse can be composed mainly of living cells. Personhood is the issue here - and that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I was hoping we might go into it a bit more in this thread, but so far, no beans.

I'll go with Chuz's first definition. As for 'life cycle' - that's another issue for another place, I feel.
 
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prometeus

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Chuz, I think you should have narrowed down "define life" to Human life. Prom is going to start talking about Kudzu and turkeys, while Iangb is going to claim that killing a cockroach makes any definition you give hypocritical.

Just sayin....
Do you find it impossible to resist being an asshole?
 

Redress

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Do you find it impossible to resist being an asshole?
Moderator's Warning:
prometeus, you are now thread banned. Any further posts in this thread will result in an infraction for each post.
 

Chuz Life

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So, what life is, beyond acknowledging the biological function, is not really important, but wen is it significant is. It is also important to whom it is significant, just the immediate family or beyond that to society, because based on that importance are the attitudes toward it formulated.
Having thought about it... 'Life' isn't the issue here; as I've said many times before...
A pattern emerges,...
 

Chuz Life

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iangb

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We are only talking about life at this point.

The poll results you are citing is in reference to 'personhood.'

But thanks for the reminder,... It's clear that someone who denies the significance of when a life begins won't likely be affected by personhood either.
You miss my point. Possibly deliberately, in order to throw in a false personal attack, but that's irrelevant.

Life is not the issue, because no-one denies that a zygote is alive. No-one denies that a sperm is alive, either. It's personhood that's the issue - finding at which point the life stops being 'part of' the mother/father and starts being a life in it's own right. We're looking for 'life' in personhood terms - what that means is, we're looking for 'personhood'.
 

Chuz Life

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You miss my point. Possibly deliberately, in order to throw in a false personal attack, but that's irrelevant.

Life is not the issue, because no-one denies that a zygote is alive. No-one denies that a sperm is alive, either. It's personhood that's the issue - finding at which point the life stops being 'part of' the mother/father and starts being a life in it's own right. We're looking for 'life' in personhood terms - what that means is, we're looking for 'personhood'.
'

The current most basic legal definition for 'person' is "a human being."

To me, that means an individual "human organism."

I'm glad that you respect the fact that a human zygote is (objectively speaking) "alive."

Hopefully, you will also agree that the life it is living is its own.

But more important to the abortion debate is,... when and if you are ever going to accept (objectively) that a human zygote is (biologically speaking) a new human being. A new human "organism."
 

iangb

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'

The current most basic legal definition for 'person' is "a human being."

To me, that means an individual "human organism."
'Individual' is a key word there, as is 'organism'. And why use legal definitions, when you currently disagree with the law?

I'm glad that you respect the fact that a human zygote is (objectively speaking) "alive."
I've never said otherwise.

Hopefully, you will also agree that the life it is living is its own.
Less likely.

But more important to the abortion debate is,... when and if you are ever going to accept (objectively) that a human zygote is (biologically speaking) a new human being. A new human "organism."
There's four bullet points, Chuz, that have been waiting on your response for quite some time now. If you want to convince me, that'd be a good place to start.
 

mac

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You miss my point. Possibly deliberately, in order to throw in a false personal attack, but that's irrelevant.

Life is not the issue, because no-one denies that a zygote is alive. No-one denies that a sperm is alive, either. It's personhood that's the issue - finding at which point the life stops being 'part of' the mother/father and starts being a life in it's own right. We're looking for 'life' in personhood terms - what that means is, we're looking for 'personhood'.
Personhood is the issue only when speaking of those that favor the legality of elective abortion. It is not the issue for all of humanity.
 

Redress

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Chuz, I think you should have narrowed down "define life" to Human life. Prom is going to start talking about Kudzu and turkeys, while Iangb is going to claim that killing a cockroach makes any definition you give hypocritical.

Just sayin....
Moderator's Warning:
Call out posts like this are not allowed. You have been warned.
 

iangb

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Personhood is the issue only when speaking of those that favor the legality of elective abortion. It is not the issue for all of humanity.
I think four five questions is the best way to illustrate my point here.

Do you consider a zygote to be a person/individual?
Do you consider a sperm to be a person/individual?

Do you consider a zygote to be alive?
Do you consider a sperm to be alive?

Given that you favour different legal treatment of sperm and zygotes, which of the above two pairs of questions shows a different answer for each?
 

mac

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I think four five questions is the best way to illustrate my point here.

Do you consider a zygote to be a person/individual?
Do you consider a sperm to be a person/individual?

Do you consider a zygote to be alive?
Do you consider a sperm to be alive?

Given that you favour different legal treatment of sperm and zygotes, which of the above two pairs of questions shows a different answer for each?
yes.
no.

yes.
yes.
 

iangb

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yes.
no.

yes.
yes.
So as such, which is more important in deciding if something should be legally protected? Whether it's alive or not, or whether it's a person/individual or not?
 

mac

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So as such, which is more important in deciding if something should be legally protected? Whether it's alive or not, or whether it's a person/individual or not?
my answer doesn't fit your rather pointed options. It is worth protecting if it is an individual life, a sperm is alive, but is not an individual life.
 

iangb

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my answer doesn't fit your rather pointed options. It is worth protecting if it is an individual life, a sperm is alive, but is not an individual life.
So it is 'individuality' which is important, not 'life'.

QED. That wasn't so hard now, was it?
 
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