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Army to Begin Forcing Out Soldiers Who Refuse COVID Vaccine, Including Guardsmen

Rogue Valley

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"
But what’s truly incredible, according to genetic analyses, is that the same novel strain of flu first introduced in 1918 appears to be the direct ancestor of every seasonal and pandemic flu we’ve had over the past century.

“You can still find the genetic traces of the 1918 virus in the seasonal flus that circulate today,” says Taubenberger. “Every single human infection with influenza A in the past 102 years is derived from that one introduction of the 1918 flu.”
"

The Spanish Flu is not a valid excuse to disobey a valid military order in 2020.
 

noonereal

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Treatments has little to do with it, this disease simply did not have the mortality rate of the Spanish Influenza.

It does not because of the treatments.

This can be seen in just looking at the raw numbers between then and now. With a US population of around 105 million, over 675k died from that one. Compare that to the 770k deaths, with a population of just under 330 million today. To have the same mortality, we would have had over 2 million deaths. It has nothing to do with anything other than this disease was simply not as fatal as the last one that caused a global pandemic.

You messed up here, big time. We have already had over 1.4 million deaths as calculated the same as we do all pandemics, as we did the Spanish Flu. (the number you used) And without 100 years of medical advancements we certainly would have exceeded the death rate of the Spanish Flu.

It is less fatal not by nature but by mans hand. Now add to this, it is not going away as teh flu did.

Add on international travel, domestic travel, commutes to urban areas daily. It is a worse scenario than was teh Spanish Flu.
 

fortune

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This vaccine argument is beyond my ability assimilate it. It does not make sense.
 

mike2810

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Some info on who many have had at least 1 dose. Article was written Oct 7, 2021

"More than 92% of active-duty troops have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine as service deadlines for getting the jab approach.

But roughly 103,000 service members haven't even gotten their first shot despite deadlines for being fully immunized. That includes roughly 48,600 Army soldiers, 7,000 Navy sailors, 15,500 Air Force airmen and Space Force Guardians, and 26,800 Marines, according to statistics released by the services.
 

beerftw

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Treatments has little to do with it, this disease simply did not have the mortality rate of the Spanish Influenza.

And I am not downplaying it at all, nor am I saying we overreacted. But the fact is, that the Spanish Influenza had a greatly higher fatality rate, and treatment and vaccines had nothing to do with that. However, like that disease this one was highly communicable, something the world has not had to deal with in a century. And the proof is in the number of cases, that no matter what was done, it still spread like crazy. Just be thankful that the mortality was significantly lower.

This can be seen in just looking at the raw numbers between then and now. With a US population of around 105 million, over 675k died from that one. Compare that to the 770k deaths, with a population of just under 330 million today. To have the same mortality, we would have had over 2 million deaths. It has nothing to do with anything other than this disease was simply not as fatal as the last one that caused a global pandemic.
Treatment actually had everything to do with it, the 1918 spanish flu killed mostly through pneumonia, they tried mandating masks, and mandating lockdowns and social distancing, in the end what they found was finding out how to treat pneumonia severely reduced death rates.

Keep in mind america was not hit nowhere near as bad, europe and asia got hit hard, europe had devastation and destruction, which caused poor nutrition and sanitation, india got hit the hardest which was one of the worst countries in terms of sanitation.

But in america a very large amount of the deaths were more military than civilian. America had beyond enough food to feed it's military unlike europe who's farms were hit directly by war. Problem was logistics left many american soldiers starving and malnourished, in crowded conditions and starving it became easy pray for the flu.

By ww2 we greatly improved logistics, in ww1 supplies were often sent by ship then by horse around europe, supply trains were easy targets for enemy attacks, and the only mre around during ww1 the haversack ration was not actually used in ww1 itself. This meant all rations had to be moved by antique supply trains, and often with food with low shelf lives. This made it a big issue causing poor nutrition, an issue not resolved well until ww2 with the c ration and truck and aircraft logistics.
 

beerftw

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Some info on who many have had at least 1 dose. Article was written Oct 7, 2021

"More than 92% of active-duty troops have received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine as service deadlines for getting the jab approach.

But roughly 103,000 service members haven't even gotten their first shot despite deadlines for being fully immunized. That includes roughly 48,600 Army soldiers, 7,000 Navy sailors, 15,500 Air Force airmen and Space Force Guardians, and 26,800 Marines, according to statistics released by the services.
For estimated 1.4 million active duty, nearly 50k active army and a hair under 27k marines is actually enough to cripple the us military unless all of those mos fields were easily replaceable.

This is one thing people do not think about, the military logistics and command and function are very well integrated, if 100k soldiers were booted out that would severely cripple the military. However at the same time they may just slow roll them being booted as well to either give time to comply or to get others to fill their slots, and filling slots can take time.

Also unknown how many of those were already ets'ing or retiring as well, which would matter on that many soldiers leaving, as ets and retirements are already accounted for ahead of time.
 

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Treatment actually had everything to do with it, the 1918 spanish flu killed mostly through pneumonia

Yes, and?

Most pneumonia is not fatal anymore because it is bacteriological based. A strong antibiotic, and it normally clears right up.

But guess what? The Spanish Flue was a virus. And want to know what the most fatal form of pneumonia is to this day?

Viral Pneumonia. And this I know, because that is what killed my fiancée in 1997. Once again, you are failing to really understand the issue, and this is a huge example.

With Viral Pneumonia, there is still not a damned thing that can be done. Give some support to help the body, but all the medication in the world given to the patient means nothing. Their body fights it off on their own, or they die.

So kudos for you for recognizing that most died of pneumonia. But boo for failing to realize that it was not the easily treated bacteriological pneumonia, and how fatal a viral pneumonia actually is.
 

beerftw

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Yes, and?

Most pneumonia is not fatal anymore because it is bacteriological based. A strong antibiotic, and it normally clears right up.

But guess what? The Spanish Flue was a virus. And want to know what the most fatal form of pneumonia is to this day?

Viral Pneumonia. And this I know, because that is what killed my fiancée in 1997. Once again, you are failing to really understand the issue, and this is a huge example.

With Viral Pneumonia, there is still not a damned thing that can be done. Give some support to help the body, but all the medication in the world given to the patient means nothing. Their body fights it off on their own, or they die.

So kudos for you for recognizing that most died of pneumonia. But boo for failing to realize that it was not the easily treated bacteriological pneumonia, and how fatal a viral pneumonia actually is.
Pneumonia caused by the spanish flu is what was mostly killing people though, that is why the death rate plummeted when they discovered how to treat it.

Today we can treat numerous types but there are certain types untreatable. Also the most untreatable pneumonia is bacterial known as vap, or ventillator associated pneumonia, this is the hardest as there is no single bacteria or even virus that causes it, meaning no single treatment works, which means survival is dependant on how quickly the doctors can identify what they are dealing with.

This was a concern with covid, as they found ventillators not only do no real good they actually are prone to killing patients, weakening lungs and stacking multiple pneumonias together, yet despite the death rate with ventillators on covid being high and the death rate where ventillators being avoided being extremely low, doctors keep using what they already know is killing their patients, and have known for decades which is why ventillators in the past were reserved for special uses.

Much of this came down to prior acute respiratory diseases working well under respirators, however despite covid showing respirators being a near death sentence, doctors still use it at even the slightest breathing trouble. It might take doctors another year to realize just because it worked good with ars does not mean it is good for covid, and that covid patients have vastly higher survival ratios using pure oxygen and other methods over ventillators.
 

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For estimated 1.4 million active duty, nearly 50k active army and a hair under 27k marines is actually enough to cripple the us military unless all of those mos fields were easily replaceable.

This is one thing people do not think about, the military logistics and command and function are very well integrated, if 100k soldiers were booted out that would severely cripple the military. However at the same time they may just slow roll them being booted as well to either give time to comply or to get others to fill their slots, and filling slots can take time.

Also unknown how many of those were already ets'ing or retiring as well, which would matter on that many soldiers leaving, as ets and retirements are already accounted for ahead of time.

What is interesting is if someone was being deployed oversees to a known disease area, they would be required to take certain vaccines.
In the past I don't recall a bunch of soldiers balking at getting the shot.

Lossing 100K all at once would be an impact. Hopefully the military will work through the issue.
 

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Approximately 60,000 military personnel remain unvaccinated despite the fact military force personnel are routinely required to get as many as 17 vaccines and routinely face penalties for the tiny handful who refuse. Air Force the other day shook things up by booting out 40 recruits and trainees who refused absolutely any Covid vaccinations in what Pentagon said is the first instance of its kind.

Under UCMJ rules and regs it's long been the case commanders can take into account the potential impact on a unit’s mission to include rejecting a religious exemption if it puts performance or effectiveness at risk. Unvaccinated troops will be subject to routine testing, distancing guidelines and likely travel restrictions.

What's being discussed is that commanders can also move service members into another more remote function, deny them overseas deployment or limit unit access if they get an exemption or while a request is being reviewed. The Pentagon recognizes that for some it may be a career-ending decision. Others could face some of the most unwelcome transfers and requirements to repay bonuses.

The Navy has made clear that sailors who refuse the shot and don’t get an exemption may have to refund bonuses and other financial payments based on existing military justice procedures for disobeying a lawful order. The most successful service has been the Navy, which says that only 1% of the force is unvaccinated as of last week — or about 3,500 sailors.

The current word is that the other services are expected to follow similar procedures as the Navy.
 

beerftw

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What is interesting is if someone was being deployed oversees to a known disease area, they would be required to take certain vaccines.
In the past I don't recall a bunch of soldiers balking at getting the shot.

Lossing 100K all at once would be an impact. Hopefully the military will work through the issue.
Known diseases usually have vaccines but not always. It has been a decade since I was in afghanistan and they still want me to get a rabies vaccine because rabies was rampant there, I tell the va well if it has not killed me yet I obviously did not get it. This was of course a campaign started around late 2012 because a soldier died of rabies after returning, and rabies was rampant, but they felt vaccines were not important for that, but gave vaccines for smallpox and anthrax which were also common there.

In terms of loss is depends on how they handle it, in the past they have done some tricks, my unit got caught with many being whacked out on drugs, having meth labs in tents etc, most caught were kicked out. However they slow rolled it, because they could not abandon the mission, so someones discharge papers always got lost and had to be re filed over and over, to ensure xyz soldier who was essential did not get booted until they worked out a replacement.

I imagine some paperwork shuffling would happen here, or the other option being field grade articles, as that would allow them to be punished but not be kicked out, instead making them do 45 days extra duty and lose half their pay for those 45 days.
 

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Today we can treat numerous types but there are certain types untreatable. Also the most untreatable pneumonia is bacterial known as vap, or ventillator associated pneumonia

Known as a secondary infection. Generally some form of a staph infection, because the immune system of somebody with viral pneumonia is severely compromised already.

As I said, I know all about that. Yet you skipped right around the simple fact that no amount of medication can help somebody that has viral pneumonia. You went off onto some kind of strange tangent, and completely ignored that simple fact.
 
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