Army says new war-ready M17 pistol will change modern combat

[MSgt]

Exactly. Esp. if you dont have a light mounted to your firearm.

Except soldiers aren't cops in a Hollywood movie or in downtown New York City searching through a crack house.

A light attached to your firearm makes you a highly visible target to an enemy combatant, especially snipers. This is why we use NVGs, not a flashlight. To accompany those NVGs, the rail system on this new pistol would accommodate a laser-type targeting system like a PEQ-15, in which NVGs are necessary to see.

 

[PleasantValley]

I'm sure some here will want to debate the merits/lack of for point shooting but that's not why I'm writing this.

Point shooting has become a trend in self-defense shooting. In recognition of the fact that IRL, you never get to assume a perfect stance and stand still while firing.

Perhaps this 'new way' of fighting is alluding to this? I dont know if the military trains for point shooting. Or if they are considering it or doing it.

I'm not really buying that they'd actually specifically design a gun more ergonomic for one-handed shooting than 2 tho.

You would be correct.
I have not experienced regular GIs being trained in point shooting.
I am sure other special units may, but don't know for sure.

I do know the M9 is pretty fat but my CZ-75B is just fine for one-handed shooting.
Military bullseye target shooting is also required to be one-handed.
The 1911 was fine for that, but I felt awkward trying to use an M9.
...and I have huge hands...(wink).

I have both though, but the CZ is my favorite hands-down.

 

[Lursa]

Except soldiers aren't cops in a Hollywood movie or in downtown New York City searching through a crack house.

A light attached to your firearm makes you a highly visible target to an enemy combatant. This is why we use NVGs, not a spotlight.

As a homeowner who keeps firearms for self-defense, I have examined both sides of that very carefully.

Despite the fact that I DO NOT have an attached light on my home 9mm (mostly for that reason), many many LE and other professionals and home owners choose to do so.

And btw, that supports my point that it enables our soldiers to carry a light separately. Lights help when going into a dark structure from daylight, and looking into spaces as well.

Edit: I do have a Crimson Trace laser but it's not rail-mounted.

 

[MSgt]

As a homeowner who keeps firearms for self-defense, I have examined both sides of that very carefully.

Despite the fact that I DO NOT have an attached light on my home 9mm (mostly for that reason), many many LE and other professionals and home owners choose to do so.

And btw, that supports my point that it enables our soldiers to carry a light separately.

Again, a light is a target. And this is not about home protection in a civilian environment. This is about a combat environment where the other side is also made up of combatants and they do employ snipers. The absolutely last thing you would want to do is wreck your own night vision by turning on a flashlight and giving the other side a target.

There's a reason why "light discipline" is a long-cherished tradition.

 

[Lursa]

Again, a light is a target. And this is not about home protection in a civilian environment. This is about a combat environment where the other side is also made up of combatants and they do employ snipers. The absolutely last thing you would want to do is wreck your own night vision by turning on a flashlight and giving the other side a target.

There's a reason why "light discipline" is a long-cherished tradition.

Again you belabor a point I've already acknowledged in order to try and condescend to me.

Again you fail. (Example: disregarding daylight campaign going door to door from light to dark, and using a light inside to light specific areas.)

Just stop trying to act like your singular experience is the answer to everything. Other veterans disagree with you all the time.

If our viewpoints differ, so be it.

 

[MSgt]

Again you belabor a point I've already acknowledged in order to try and condescend to me.

Again you fail. (Example: disregarding daylight campaign going door to door from light to dark, and using a light inside to light specific areas.)

Just stop trying to act like your singular experience is the answer to everything. Other veterans disagree with you all the time.

If our viewpoints differ, so be it.

I have no idea what your viewpoint is. You are too argumentative about everything and you used civilian home protection in the USA to correlate to foreign conflict in a military combat scenario.

And my experience has nothing to do with pretty flashlights attached to weapons.

 

[Lursa]

I have no idea what your viewpoint is. You are too argumentative about everything and you used civilian home protection in the USA to correlate to foreign conflict in a military combat scenario.

And my experience has nothing to do with pretty flashlights attached to weapons.

Neither does mine :mrgreen:

Apparently you do not read well...your own agenda seems to hide anything that you havent anticipated.

 

[MSgt]

Neither does mine :mrgreen:

Apparently you do not read well...your own agenda seems to hide anything that you havent anticipated.

I can't wrap my brain around that statement.

 

[apdst]

Ahh, but you said that you were someone who had actual experience as "dismounted cavalry" so I merely expressed my astonishment at your advanced age.

That's not what i said.

 

[apdst]

I have no idea what your viewpoint is. You are too argumentative about everything and you used civilian home protection in the USA to correlate to foreign conflict in a military combat scenario.

And my experience has nothing to do with pretty flashlights attached to weapons.

I don't get the the flashlight thing, in any scenario.

 

[The Mark]

From FOX News

Army says new war-ready M17 pistol will change modern combat
​

Earlier this year, soldiers with the Army’s 101st Airborne Division were the first to receive the services’ new high-tech 9mm pistol engineered to give dismounted infantry a vastly increased ability to fight and close with an enemy in caves, tunnels, crawl spaces, houses and other close quarter combat scenarios.

Service weapons developers and soldiers say the new M17 and M18 pistol, designed as a next-generation handgun to follow the Army’s current M9 Beretta, is expected to substantially change combat tactics, techniques and strategies for dismounted soldiers on-the-move.

“You can close with the enemy in close quarter combat and engage the enemy with one hand. It is tough to do this with the M9,” Lt. Col. Martin O’Donnell, spokesman for the 101st Airborne, told reporters earlier this year.

The new pistol is built with a more ergonomic configuration to better accommodate the widest possible range of hand grip techniques for soldiers and enable rapid hand switching as needed in combat. The M17 is said by developers to bring much tighter dispersion, improved versatility and next-generation accuracy.

COMMENT:-

It's great to see the American military buying American weapons from an American firm (even if that American firm isn't actually owned by Americans).

PS - Unless things have changed a whole lot, "The enemy is within accurate pistol shot range." means the same thing as "Somebody screwed up and the enemy is too damn close." 99 times out of 100.
​

Not sure why this article is a thing, they decided they were moving to that firearm back in January 2017.

Maybe it's Fox telling their viewers that the US military is keeping it's tech up to date or something.

Or the army, through Fox, via press release.

Yeah that last seems to fit this.

 

[MSgt]

I don't get the the flashlight thing, in any scenario.

I don't either. It makes no sense.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

That's not what i said.

Really, I said "Ask someone who actually has experience."

You replied "Someone with actual experience just educated you.", (see post 26 this thread).

Then I said "My goodness, an actual person who served as MOUNTED cavalry and who is still alive. I'm impressed. " (see post 34 this thread)

You replied "I was mech infantry, actually. ..." which carried the rather strong implication that you were the person with "actual experience". (see post 41 this thread)

If you were the one who "just educated" me about mounted cavalry then you would have been the one who had "actual experience as mounted cavalry".

Now either I am "impressed" by your age or by the fact that your memory is so defective that you cannot recall what you actually wrote.

Guess which is the case.

 

[apdst]

Really, I said "Ask someone who actually has experience."

You replied "Someone with actual experience just educated you.", (see post 26 this thread).

Then I said "My goodness, an actual person who served as MOUNTED cavalry and who is still alive. I'm impressed. " (see post 34 this thread)

You replied "I was mech infantry, actually. ..." which carried the rather strong implication that you were the person with "actual experience". (see post 41 this thread)

If you were the one who "just educated" me about mounted cavalry then you would have been the one who had "actual experience as mounted cavalry".

Now either I am "impressed" by your age or by the fact that your memory is so defective that you cannot recall what you actually wrote.

Guess which is the case.

I know the difference between infantry and cavalry. Obviously, you don't.

 

[beerftw]

Not sure why this article is a thing, they decided they were moving to that firearm back in January 2017.

Maybe it's Fox telling their viewers that the US military is keeping it's tech up to date or something.

Or the army, through Fox, via press release.

Yeah that last seems to fit this.

The article is a thing because there has been some major issues with the pistol the army has tried to sweep under the rug. For instance the civilian version even after upgrades has been known to fire if dropped or bumped the wrong way, the military version as far as I know has not however that image plagues the pistol. There was almost no testing prior to the contract, testing was cut short and the pistol performed the worst, and after the contract reliability has been a concern, even to this day. Normally in a new design this would not be too major as the military would run trials and the contract winner would modify the product based off of feedback, however here it looks like the contract was set in stone before any contest began, and seem to be in a rush to get it into service.


This reminds me of the acu uniform, performed the worst in testing yet got selected, I would guess cost would have been the major factor, as the berretta m9a3 was more expensive, the glock modular was more expensive, heck all of them were more expensive. The glock used a very proven platform and made it modular, berretta did the same with the m9 but also designed a magazine for dirty environments like the middle east after complaints of sandstorms and such causing magazines to not feed, smith and wesson used their known platform too but modified it to be modular.

 

[beerftw]

The vast majority of the military including doesn't even know how to use a pistol properly and I don't see that changing anytime soon. Pretending this new pistol is going to change modern combat is absolutely retarded.

And in the end outside of a few very rare situations, and room clearing isn't one of them, a pistol is a very poor substitute for a rifle.

You are true on most of the army not knowing how to use them, most units I have seen do not even train to use pistols other than a brief instruction, then only hand them out to officers medics and certain other mos's which they deem carrying a rifle a burden(ok I do not see how an officer is burdened with a rifle but they always got them pistols). When I left active duty and went national guard I was assigned to a psd team which got both a rifle and a sidearm, and yeah that psd team never deployed thank god, I would get a perfect score if the targets dropped which at that crappy range did not always happen. However besides me and people I could count on one hand getting good or perfect scores, most were lucky if they got a 4 out of 30, and quite a few could not even hit targets at close range.

I found the pistol easy to fire but so many could barely handle any sidearm, and yu are correct no new pistol is going to change that, especially when many units do not do any real training with them and do just the bare minimum to meet quals.

 

[dcsports]

From FOX News

Army says new war-ready M17 pistol will change modern combat
​

Earlier this year, soldiers with the Army’s 101st Airborne Division were the first to receive the services’ new high-tech 9mm pistol engineered to give dismounted infantry a vastly increased ability to fight and close with an enemy in caves, tunnels, crawl spaces, houses and other close quarter combat scenarios.

Service weapons developers and soldiers say the new M17 and M18 pistol, designed as a next-generation handgun to follow the Army’s current M9 Beretta, is expected to substantially change combat tactics, techniques and strategies for dismounted soldiers on-the-move.

“You can close with the enemy in close quarter combat and engage the enemy with one hand. It is tough to do this with the M9,” Lt. Col. Martin O’Donnell, spokesman for the 101st Airborne, told reporters earlier this year.

The new pistol is built with a more ergonomic configuration to better accommodate the widest possible range of hand grip techniques for soldiers and enable rapid hand switching as needed in combat. The M17 is said by developers to bring much tighter dispersion, improved versatility and next-generation accuracy.

COMMENT:-

It's great to see the American military buying American weapons from an American firm (even if that American firm isn't actually owned by Americans).

PS - Unless things have changed a whole lot, "The enemy is within accurate pistol shot range." means the same thing as "Somebody screwed up and the enemy is too damn close." 99 times out of 100.
​

I'm trying to understand how this pistol will 'change modern combat'. OK, I's got an ergonomic grip, and I'm sure that people who have to carry it will appreciate the slight reduction in weight. But it still fires the same ammunition, and is still a pistol, which is either a back-up weapon or an emergency weapon for people not expected to fire one.

 

[Cordelier]

You would be correct.
I have not experienced regular GIs being trained in point shooting.
I am sure other special units may, but don't know for sure.

I do know the M9 is pretty fat but my CZ-75B is just fine for one-handed shooting.
Military bullseye target shooting is also required to be one-handed.
The 1911 was fine for that, but I felt awkward trying to use an M9.
...and I have huge hands...(wink).

I have both though, but the CZ is my favorite hands-down.

That's a good choice... I actually thought the CZ-75 variants were the best guns in the competition.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I know the difference between infantry and cavalry. Obviously, you don't.

There are days when I regret that you don't actually bother to respond to what you have actually written, but there are a whole lot more when I enjoy the good laugh you provide.

PS - If no one else around here knows the difference between a response provided by an intelligent, thinking, informed person and a response provided by a horses ass, I do.

 

[TurtleDude]

10mm? Thats a hot load. Ive heard pistols using that caliber develop cracks in their barrels after just a few hundred rounds fired. I prefer the 45 ACP myself.

depends on the gun and the load. 45 is a bit more inherently accurate. and it operates at much lower pressures for the same energy. Then again, my hot 45 ACP loads operated at well under 10,000 less CUPs than your basic 9mm.


BTW I own a couple of the sig pistols-not one of the current military versions (ie no manual safety) and almost every version of the M9 made including the G model, the brigadier model etc. I don't see much difference though the constant trigger pull of the SIG puts it slightly ahead in user friendly categories. the M9 is a bit bulky for a 15 shot 9mm.

 

[TurtleDude]

You would be correct.
I have not experienced regular GIs being trained in point shooting.
I am sure other special units may, but don't know for sure.

I do know the M9 is pretty fat but my CZ-75B is just fine for one-handed shooting.
Military bullseye target shooting is also required to be one-handed.
The 1911 was fine for that, but I felt awkward trying to use an M9.
...and I have huge hands...(wink).

I have both though, but the CZ is my favorite hands-down.

I agree but the CZ standard-the 75 is rather heavy. which is why it and its newer cousin, the SP-01 dominate production division USPSA and steel shooting. I shoot for CZ Custom shop using a highly tricked out CZ TS and a Shadow II (which is a competition grade SP 01). utterly reliable. But too heavy for carry pieces. The P10 is their answer to the Sig 320 and the Glock 17. I'd say the CZ P10 striker driven pistol has a bit better trigger than either the G17 and the 320. But the advantage of teh 320 is the interchangeable frames.

they are all good pistols. the reliability -from what I have seen-is pretty even.

 

[apdst]

There are days when I regret that you don't actually bother to respond to what you have actually written, but there are a whole lot more when I enjoy the good laugh you provide.

PS - If no one else around here knows the difference between a response provided by an intelligent, thinking, informed person and a response provided by a horses ass, I do.

The fact that you resort to name calling proves you have no argument.

 

[chuckiechan]

N

From FOX News

Army says new war-ready M17 pistol will change modern combat
​

Earlier this year, soldiers with the Army’s 101st Airborne Division were the first to receive the services’ new high-tech 9mm pistol engineered to give dismounted infantry a vastly increased ability to fight and close with an enemy in caves, tunnels, crawl spaces, houses and other close quarter combat scenarios.

Service weapons developers and soldiers say the new M17 and M18 pistol, designed as a next-generation handgun to follow the Army’s current M9 Beretta, is expected to substantially change combat tactics, techniques and strategies for dismounted soldiers on-the-move.

“You can close with the enemy in close quarter combat and engage the enemy with one hand. It is tough to do this with the M9,” Lt. Col. Martin O’Donnell, spokesman for the 101st Airborne, told reporters earlier this year.

The new pistol is built with a more ergonomic configuration to better accommodate the widest possible range of hand grip techniques for soldiers and enable rapid hand switching as needed in combat. The M17 is said by developers to bring much tighter dispersion, improved versatility and next-generation accuracy.

COMMENT:-

It's great to see the American military buying American weapons from an American firm (even if that American firm isn't actually owned by Americans).

PS - Unless things have changed a whole lot, "The enemy is within accurate pistol shot range." means the same thing as "Somebody screwed up and the enemy is too damn close." 99 times out of 100.
​

I’m sure its an improvement, but not that big of a deal. I doubt a sidearm is fired that often. But it is partly a matter of increasing the confidence in your weapon. I was always in fear of my M-16 jaming, but the only time it jammed was on the range and at the end of a 20 round mag, but that concern was always there.

 

[braindrain]

As a homeowner who keeps firearms for self-defense, I have examined both sides of that very carefully.

Despite the fact that I DO NOT have an attached light on my home 9mm (mostly for that reason), many many LE and other professionals and home owners choose to do so.

And btw, that supports my point that it enables our soldiers to carry a light separately. Lights help when going into a dark structure from daylight, and looking into spaces as well.

Edit: I do have a Crimson Trace laser but it's not rail-mounted.

Weapon mounted lights are a very useful tool. It is why virtually ever single SOF unit uses them. I have issued surefire lights on both my Glock 19 and M4.

As to your earlier question about point shooting it is not anything I have ever seen taught and have been to some of the most advanced shooting /CQB schools in the Army. In fact shooting while not using your sites will get you kicked out of them.
Maybe somewhere some one is doing it but I have my doubts.

 

[braindrain]

I don't get the the flashlight thing, in any scenario.

There are lots of scenarios where weapons mounted lights are very useful. Try going from the blinding light of mid day Iraq one second and the next you are having to I'd a threat 15 meters deep in a house with the lights off and windows darkened.


Look at any picture of virtually any SOF issued weapon. It will have a light.