Are you that ignorant when it comes to abortions?

[weaver2]

"

"You've been asked at least twice about this statement. Who are these "religious right wing" people who want to outlaw contraceptives?"

There arent any. He just made it up.

They are not made up.

I embrace the view that a marital sexual relationship should have life-giving potential; something is relationally and morally off-target if there is not openness toward producing children. Nevertheless, there is nothing wrong with the use of morally acceptable and effective methods that prevent conception in order to temporarily prohibit the possibility of getting pregnant.
Stanton Jones, Provost, Wheaton College

I believe that contraception is acceptable for Christians to use under the following conditions: The method prevents fertilization rather than implantation; the reason for use is good stewardship of resources, relationships and ministry rather than selfishness and increased standard of living; it is mutually and prayerfully chosen by husband and wife.
Jay Barnes, President, Bethel University

After praying over this for years, having six children, and counseling many, I believe children are the greatest gift God gives us. Unless specifically directly by God for health or other reasons, I believe we should let the Author of Life have his way. Hence, I am generally opposed to artificial methods of contraception.
Ron Boehme, Director, Youth With A Mission U.S. Renewal

Can Christians Use Birth Control?

The effective separation of sex from procreation may be one of the most important defining marks of our age--and one of the most ominous This awareness is spreading among American evangelicals, and ...

www.christianpost.com

Every marriage must be open to the gift of children. …. To demand sexual pleasure without openness to children is to violate a sacred trust. ……..evangelical couples may, at times, choose to use contraceptives in order to plan their families and enjoy the pleasures of the marital bed. ……. Not all birth control is contraception, for some technologies and methods do not prevent the sperm from fertilizing the egg, but instead prevent the fertilized egg from successfully implanting itself in the lining of the womb. Such methods involve nothing less than an early abortion. This is true of all IUDs and some hormonal technologies. ……some forms of the Pill may also work through abortifacient effect, rather than preventing ovulation. Christian couples must exercise due care in choosing a form of birth control that is unquestionably contraceptive, rather than abortifacient.

Good review of the subject: https://www.americanprogress.org/is...hoice-advocates-redefine-limit-contraception/

 

[Josie]

What greater statement is there than changing the law to suit one's religious agenda? Catholics and evangelicals have been making abortion and women's contraceptives less and less accessible in all conservative states ever since Roe. With any new development in abortion technology and /or women's contraceptives religious conservatives initiate massive efforts to make them illegal or limit availability to the public. Is there any reason to expect this behavior to cease when their religious belief is that contraception is against God's plan? If you want a public statement go to the mission and vision statements of individual sects.

Mission statement of the National Association of Evangelicals:
“Evangelicals believe that government is a gift from God for the common good. Good governance creates the conditions in which human beings fulfill their responsibilities as God’s image bearers and as stewards of God’s creation.”

An editorial from Christian Post

Can Christians Use Birth Control?

The effective separation of sex from procreation may be one of the most important defining marks of our age--and one of the most ominous This awareness is spreading among American evangelicals, and ...

www.christianpost.com

"Every marriage must be open to the gift of children. …. To demand sexual pleasure without openness to children is to violate a sacred trust. ……..evangelical couples may, at times, choose to use contraceptives in order to plan their families and enjoy the pleasures of the marital bed. ……. Not all birth control is contraception, for some technologies and methods do not prevent the sperm from fertilizing the egg, but instead prevent the fertilized egg from successfully implanting itself in the lining of the womb. Such methods involve nothing less than an early abortion. This is true of all IUDs and some hormonal technologies. ……some forms of the Pill may also work through abortifacient effect, rather than preventing ovulation. Christian couples must exercise due care in choosing a form of birth control that is unquestionably contraceptive, rather than abortifacient."

If you eliminate sterilization, the IUD, hormone implants and the pill that means women have no means of controlling pregnancy and leaves males in control of all contraception. The failure rate of condoms, withdrawal, and rhythm method is between 18% and 25%.

What more statement do you require?

The mission statement you quoted says nothing about wanting to outlaw contraception nor does the editorial from Christian Post. I've been around Christians my entire life - Catholics, evangelicals and everything in between. I have never met one who thinks all contraception should be illegal. They might personally believe that it's wrong and they wouldn't use it themselves, but I have yet to meet one who thinks they should all be eliminated from legal use. That's extremist territory - extremists aren't the mainstream. I would venture to say that less than 10% of Christians have this extremist view. To say "the religious right" - a HUGE population of people - wants to make contraception illegal is nonsense.

 

[Josie]

Funny how you are for choice in drug coverage, but not for choosing a medical procedure....

Because abortion isn't just a "medical procedure." You know why. I won't repeat myself.

 

[Josie]

all women have benefitted from liberal change.

and i have no idea who those two people are.

They are two pro-choice women who post in almost every abortion thread here. You wouldn't have said that to them.

 

[CaughtInThe]

They are two pro-choice women who post in almost every abortion thread here. You wouldn't have said that to them.

who cares? it's true.

 

[Josie]

What about people whose religious beliefs have them opposed to transfusions? Vasectomies? Capital punishment? Is their religious liberty harmed by financing such things publicly?

You'd have to ask them. I believe religious liberty should be protected.

 

[vegas giants]

You'd have to ask them. I believe religious liberty should be protected.

Well....unless it affects you

 

[Excon]

I was saying laws are there to punish those who break laws.

And still irrelevant to anything I said.

Making birth control more accessible is a real solution because it does save lives just like seat belts save lives.

Saving all lives is the “pipe dream” but saving more lives is not.

Apparently you are not getting this.
It is not a solution. You seem not to be understanding the end game of one side of the coin here, which is to make illegal the killing of such life. A reduction by other means is not a solution to that.
There is no solution and never will be until all are of the same mind.
Let me put it this way.
One side's "solution" is to allow abortions to continue.
The other side's "solution" is to outlaw abortions.
There is no real solution between the two. One side will always want abortions while the other side does not.

Saving all lives is the “pipe dream” but saving more lives is not.

1. It appears you are addressing something that was not asserted.
2. Saving "more" lives is not the end game of the other side of the coin. So ... irrelevant.
That may or may not be your goal - and that's fine, and it may even be a intermediate goal for them on their way to achieving their end goal, but it is not their end goal.

Do not fool yourself by going by percentage go by real numbers.

It's like you think you have some grasp of numbers someone else doesn't. iLOL
Hilarious.

In 2017 the rate of abortions had fallen to levels lower than 1973 when The Roe decision was made and abortions before viability were made legal in all states.

The abortion rate (the number of abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44) fell by 20%, from 16.9 in 2011 to 13.5 in 2017.

The rate was at 14.6 abortions per 1,000 women of childbearing age (ages 15-44) in 2014. That's the lowest recorded rate since the Roe decision in 1973. The abortion rate has been declining for decades — down from a peak of 29.3 in 1980 and 1981.

In 1980-1981 there were 29.3 abortions per 1,000 women
In 2017 the numbers fell to 13.5 abortions per 1,000 women

That is a big drop.

1. That is a drop. You consider it "big", I do not. Nor does it show any correlation with "access" which you were arguing.
2. You did not link this information you are now providing to me. Is it becasue those numbers coincided with an unprecedented wave of new abortion restrictions?

You are simply avoiding the points made, especially the original one.

Again.

A reduction in numbers is not the goal of the other side. Speaking to the otherside's argument with an argument of reduction has no relevance.
It is an innocent life to them that is worthy of preserving and therefore they want to make the killing of that life an illegal act.​

 

[vegas giants]

Because abortion isn't just a "medical procedure." You know why. I won't repeat myself.

Of course it is. Insurance pays for it in some cases too.


Perfectly legal medical procedure

 

[weaver2]

The mission statement you quoted says nothing about wanting to outlaw contraception nor does the editorial from Christian Post. I've been around Christians my entire life - Catholics, evangelicals and everything in between. I have never met one who thinks all contraception should be illegal. They might personally believe that it's wrong and they wouldn't use it themselves, but I have yet to meet one who thinks they should all be eliminated from legal use. That's extremist territory - extremists aren't the mainstream. I would venture to say that less than 10% of Christians have this extremist view. To say "the religious right" - a HUGE population of people - wants to make contraception illegal is nonsense.

Do you think people that make statements like:

"human beings fulfill their responsibilities as God’s image bearers and as stewards of God’s creation.”
"Every marriage must be open to the gift of children"
"Christian couples must exercise due care in choosing a form of birth control that is unquestionably contraceptive, rather than abortifacient.

are going to ask Congress to preserve access to IUDs, female sterilization, hormone implants and the Pill when they have the full backing of the Supreme Court and have banned abortion?

You keep thinking the anti-abortion movement is about saving fetuses. It isn't. The rich, old, while, males that run the movement don't give a rats ass about fetuses. They are concerned with maintaining a their political and financial power. Pregnancy comes during the years of career building. Just two pregnancies during those years can keep most women from gaining financial and political power and legal equality. Taking away contraceptives that women control and forcing reliance on male birth control which has an 18% to 25% failure rate is not just a coincidence.

This is not an extremist view. It is the base of the Republican political philosophy.

 

[Josie]

Do you think people that make statements like:

"human beings fulfill their responsibilities as God’s image bearers and as stewards of God’s creation.”
"Every marriage must be open to the gift of children"
"Christian couples must exercise due care in choosing a form of birth control that is unquestionably contraceptive, rather than abortifacient.

are going to ask Congress to preserve access to IUDs, female sterilization, hormone implants and the Pill when they have the full backing of the Supreme Court and have banned abortion?

Abortion will never be banned. Stop with the hysterics.

None of the above quotes have anything to do with outlawing anything. It's a personal choice. YES, there are some who are very political and want to legislate from Scripture or their own opinions, but it's not "the religious right" as a whole. It's a small number of extremists who want all abortion and all contraceptives banned.

You keep thinking the anti-abortion movement is about saving fetuses. It isn't.

It is for many.

The old while males that run the movement don't give a rats ass about fetuses. They are concerned with maintaining a their political and financial power. Pregnancy comes during the years of career building. Just two pregnancies during those years can keep most women from gaining financial and political power and legal equality. Taking away contraceptives that women control and forcing reliance on male birth control which has an 18% to 25% failure rate is not just a coincidence.

The movement is run by men? Weird. It's mostly women that I've seen leading the way. Your paragraph here belongs in the conspiracy section.

This is not an extremist view. It is the base of the Republican political philosophy.

Oh, it is? Outlawing birth control is part of the Republican platform? Please link that.

 

[Bassman]

Do you think people that make statements like:

"human beings fulfill their responsibilities as God’s image bearers and as stewards of God’s creation.”
"Every marriage must be open to the gift of children"
"Christian couples must exercise due care in choosing a form of birth control that is unquestionably contraceptive, rather than abortifacient.

are going to ask Congress to preserve access to IUDs, female sterilization, hormone implants and the Pill when they have the full backing of the Supreme Court and have banned abortion?

You keep thinking the anti-abortion movement is about saving fetuses. It isn't. The rich, old, while, males that run the movement don't give a rats ass about fetuses. They are concerned with maintaining a their political and financial power. Pregnancy comes during the years of career building. Just two pregnancies during those years can keep most women from gaining financial and political power and legal equality. Taking away contraceptives that women control and forcing reliance on male birth control which has an 18% to 25% failure rate is not just a coincidence.

This is not an extremist view. It is the base of the Republican political philosophy.

You think a career is all that matters to women?

 

[weaver2]

"Abortion will never be banned. Stop with the hysterics".
Of course it will. Conservative Republicans have been advocating for this for a long time.

"None of the above quotes have anything to do with outlawing anything. It's a personal choice. YES, there are some who are very political and want to legislate from Scripture or their own opinions, but it's not "the religious right" as a whole. It's a small number of extremists who want all abortion and all contraceptives banned."
Personal religious choice which is often before state legislatures and Congress as bills to be made into laws.

"It is for many."
Yes, but not for the leaders. Read what Weyrich and Falwell have written about gaining political power.


"The movement is run by men? Weird. It's mostly women that I've seen leading the way. Your paragraph here belongs in the conspiracy section."
Yes the movement is led by men. Read the history of the movement.


"Oh, it is? Outlawing birth control is part of the Republican platform? Please link that."
Follow the proposed legislation.

 

[OceanBlues1]

As I said.....it is an example of the religious right making it hard for women to get birth control.

Yep. And two ways that's done is to make women's birth control methods more expensive and/or to disallow insurance coverage for those who are stuck with religious, anti-contraception employers.

 

[OceanBlues1]

You think a career is all that matters to women?

It was all that mattered for me. Not all women want the whole "traditional family, woman's place in the home" thing, in case you didn't know.

 

[Josie]

Yep. And two ways that's done is to make women's birth control methods more expensive and/or to disallow insurance coverage for those who are stuck with religious, anti-contraception employers.

No one is chained to their employer or their employer's insurance.

 

[vegas giants]

No one is chained to their employer or their employer's insurance.

Remember that when they discriminate against you

 

[OceanBlues1]

you mean special rights at the expense of everyone else.

Seriously? I think this statement is nonsense, myself. A woman's voting and deciding for herself whether or not to marry and/or have children is hardly a "special right at the expense of everyone else." Unless the "everyone else" is just the angry conservative guys who never wanted anyone other than themselves to have rights.

 

[OceanBlues1]

No one is chained to their employer or their employer's insurance.

I disagree. I think they are "chained" if they can't get a job or insurance coverage anywhere else.

 

[OceanBlues1]

Care to explain what you consider women's duty and obligation?

My guess; to marry and have children, of course, as well as being the man's unpaid housekeeper. Any woman who chooses not to do any or all of those things is probably "not a real woman" or something equally ridiculous.

 

[OceanBlues1]

You'd have to ask them. I believe religious liberty should be protected.

Last time I checked, "religious liberty" isn't the practice of forcing one religion's beliefs or rules onto the entire population in the form of oppressive rules or laws. Like..."contraception is against God's law," for example.

 

[Josie]

I disagree. I think they are "chained" if they can't get a job or insurance coverage anywhere else.

Factories, home health care, schools --- always hiring.

 

[Josie]

Last time I checked, "religious liberty" isn't the practice of forcing one religion's beliefs or rules onto the entire population in the form of oppressive rules or laws. Like..."contraception is against God's law," for example.

Who is this "entire population" who is being forced to swallow someone else's religious beliefs?

 

[vegas giants]

Factories, home health care, schools --- always hiring.

If they only started promoting men in your school district you would scream bloody murder

 

[OceanBlues1]

Who is this "entire population" who is being forced to swallow someone else's religious beliefs?

IMO, the entire U.S., if the religious anti-abortion and anti-contraception folks ever get their way. Oh, and an entire population of workers stuck with religious anti-contraception employers. That's "who," in my view at least.