Are you sure the NSA scandal is no big deal?

[Lutherf]

Try this on for size -

Yesterday we had this article about the NSA tipping off the DEA about drug crimes but, through the miracle of "parallel construction" the source of the tip gets obfuscated.

DEA agents use NSA intercepts to investigate Americans ? report ? RT USA

Now today we get this article that the IRS is using the same DEA program that is getting tipped by the NSA and the same "parallel construction" methodology to initiate some of their investigations.

Exclusive: IRS manual detailed DEA's use of hidden intel evidence | Reuters

According to this article the tactic has been in use for DECADES!!

Now, for all of you who figure that the need for NSA snooping is simply the price we have to pay to be safe from terrorists, how does this crap figure into your thinking?

We've got local police forces that are operating and equipped like a branch of the military, we've got more and more data being collected by the government from all kinds of sources and we've got that data being used for stuff that damned sure isn't "terrorism". Throw in a teaspoon of political gamesmanship with the IRS and investigations of reporters as "spies" and that's quite a pile of cow manure that has been dumped on the Constitution.

OK....I just dumped a sizable pile on the table here so let me run this down one more time.

The NSA is looking at EVERYTHING Americans are doing and that snooping is only subject to decisions made by a secret court that only issues secret opinions. The data, once collected, is sent to a secret department that relays that information to various other agencies who have low level operatives initiate investigations based on "anonymous tips" and then the reports are rewritten with some bull**** excuse for starting the investigation. The damned process even shows up in these agencies manuals!

How is this all not a blatant violation of the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments? How is this any different than what the KGB was doing 30 years ago?

People, we need to start holding our elected officials accountable for this crap and by "accountable" I mean SERIOUS prison time. Of course as things stand the people investigating this stuff would be the ones in jeopardy so we're not going to see that investigation.

It's time for a change, folks. It's time for the citizens of this nation to stand up and take our country back.

 

[lizzie]

How is this all not a blatant violation of the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments? How is this any different than what the KGB was doing 30 years ago?

People, we need to start holding our elected officials accountable for this crap and by "accountable" I mean SERIOUS prison time. Of course as things stand the people investigating this stuff would be the ones in jeopardy so we're not going to see that investigation.

It's time for a change, folks. It's time for the citizens of this nation to stand up and take our country back.

It isn't any different, but nowadays, the American populace as a whole, has become complacent, and they don't worry too much about it as long as they have the latest technological entertainment device, and food on the table. We've been bought off pretty cheaply, with a few trinkets.

 

[imagep]

I dunno, I don't really have a problem with any of that. I could really care less if the government snoops into my private life, I'm not a criminal or a terrorist.

And since the IRS is apparently in on the action, let me add that I don't even cheat on my taxes.

 

[sangha]

I think the surveillance is A Big Deal

I just don't think it's a scandal, and those who call it a scandal are doing the cause a disservice by injecting an element of partisanship.

 

[lizzie]

I dunno, I don't really have a problem with any of that. I could really care less if the government snoops into my private life, I'm not a criminal or a terrorist.

And since the IRS is apparently in on the action, let me add that I don't even cheat on my taxes.

I'm not a criminal, a terrorist, or a tax-cheat either, but I sure as hell resent the government snooping into my private life. It's a personal privacy thing with me. My private life is none of their damn business.

 

[Lutherf]

I think the surveillance is A Big Deal

I just don't think it's a scandal, and those who call it a scandal are doing the cause a disservice by injecting an element of partisanship.

"Partisanship".....that's just something I don't get with this issue. How the hell can it be partisan? Every American is guaranteed the same protections under the Constitution without regard to their voting history so the way I'm looking at this is that the ones bringing up "partisan" charges are the ones who are obfuscating the issue, not the ones calling it a scandal.

I mean, seriously, the articles indicate that this crap was going on for decades and that covers both D and R administrations as well as control of congress by both parties....and neither party has done a damned thing to stop it. Hell, I don't see how this issue could be any LESS partisan!

 

[sangha]

"Partisanship".....that's just something I don't get with this issue. How the hell can it be partisan? Every American is guaranteed the same protections under the Constitution without regard to their voting history so the way I'm looking at this is that the ones bringing up "partisan" charges are the ones who are obfuscating the issue, not the ones calling it a scandal.

I mean, seriously, the articles indicate that this crap was going on for decades and that covers both D and R administrations as well as control of congress by both parties....and neither party has done a damned thing to stop it. Hell, I don't see how this issue could be any LESS partisan!

Why yes, both parties have taken part in this. It does defy reason to use it for partisan purposes

Yet some will, and have done, exactly that.

 

[lizzie]

"Partisanship".....that's just something I don't get with this issue. How the hell can it be partisan? Every American is guaranteed the same protections under the Constitution without regard to their voting history so the way I'm looking at this is that the ones bringing up "partisan" charges are the ones who are obfuscating the issue, not the ones calling it a scandal.

I mean, seriously, the articles indicate that this crap was going on for decades and that covers both D and R administrations as well as control of congress by both parties....and neither party has done a damned thing to stop it. Hell, I don't see how this issue could be any LESS partisan!

Exactly. Hell man, you didn't even mention a single politician's name in the op. Jeez, this issue is not a partisan one. It's an issue of how far we have turned away from our principles at the dawning of our nation.

 

[sangha]

Exactly. Hell man, you didn't even mention a single politician's name in the op. Jeez, this issue is not a partisan one. It's an issue of how far we have turned away from our principles at the dawning of our nation.

Just to be clear - I'm not accusing Lutherf of being partisan wrt this issue

I merely pointing out that there are people who have been partisan, and the word "scandal" has been used for partisan purposes.

IMO, there is no "scandal". The heart of the issue isn't about whether the govt is breaking the law (though it may very well be breaking the law). The issue is whether or not it is wise to allow the govt to engage in this surveillance.

 

[Lutherf]

Just to be clear - I'm not accusing Lutherf of being partisan wrt this issue

I merely pointing out that there are people who have been partisan, and the word "scandal" has been used for partisan purposes.

IMO, there is no "scandal". The heart of the issue isn't about whether the govt is breaking the law. The issue is whether or not it is wise to allow the govt to engage in this surveillance.

And I didn't take it that way.

The partisanship we are seeing in this country is a good part of the reason that stuff like this can happen. A united people would NEVER allow this stuff to happen and the only way we are going to get it stopped is to set aside the partisan bickering (at least on this issue).

 

[Jango]

I dunno, I don't really have a problem with any of that. I could really care less if the government snoops into my private life, I'm not a criminal or a terrorist.

And since the IRS is apparently in on the action, let me add that I don't even cheat on my taxes.

:doh

Then you don't have a 'private life'. How lame of you not to care about that.

 

[Jango]

And I didn't take it that way.

The partisanship we are seeing in this country is a good part of the reason that stuff like this can happen. A united people would NEVER allow this stuff to happen and the only way we are going to get it stopped is to set aside the partisan bickering (at least on this issue).

The government won't stop it… not even if ten million of us were upset about it. They'd just hide the programs.

 

[specklebang]

..and neither do you. Caring or not caring is irrelevant unless you have a plan to do something about it.

This is your government that you are "at war" with. Not a political party. They are much, much bigger than you are and there isn't one damn thing you can do about it.

It is offensive and disgusting. "Land Of The Free" indeed. But it is what it is.

 

[Lutherf]

The government won't stop it… not even if ten million of us were upset about it. They'd just hide the programs.

Right. That's why WE need to stop the government from doing this.

Our local sheriffs, mayors and judges need to be held accountable if they are complicit in any of this stuff. Our local political party affiliates need to be held accountable and we need to make sure that they understand that we won't tolerate anybody on any ticket that doesn't vehemently oppose this kind of thing. We need to make sure that they understand that the federal Senate and Congressional campaigns won't get a damned dime from us unless they are putting up candidates who oppose this kind of thing with every breath they take. When we have a question about whether this or that was the result of this kind of snooping we need to claw our way up the chain of evidence until we can be assured that no shenanigans were part of the process.

Until the government comes clean and stops this crap they aren't to be allowed the benefit of the doubt. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander and if the government isn't going to give us the benefit of the doubt then we're damned fools to give them such benefit.

 

[Lutherf]

..and neither do you. Caring or not caring is irrelevant unless you have a plan to do something about it.

This is your government that you are "at war" with. Not a political party. They are much, much bigger than you are and there isn't one damn thing you can do about it.

It is offensive and disgusting. "Land Of The Free" indeed. But it is what it is.

Hogwash!

It only "is what it is" as long as we allow it to be that way.

 

[Fisher]

How is this all not a blatant violation of the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments?

The short answer is the War on Drugs by conservative politicians appointing conservative judges who would let almost anything fly that resulted in a good drug bust that Constitutional law became so inundated with really really bad case law that when those standards were applied to everybody, people suddenly are getting pissed. At this point, you will need to either amend the Constitution to reset the case law from scratch or you will need to support and demand the appointment of libertarian Judges that are willing to throw the whole generation of search and seizure case law out as plain wrong.

Neither will happen.

 

[thinkforyoursel]

...can I seriously just ask this question?

How many of you really feel Obama is following some sinister script layed down by Adolf Hitler?

How many of you really believe this ...be honest.
How many believe Obama will be kicking in people's door in the dead of night ...and ...systematically murder them?

 

[specklebang]

Hogwash!

It only "is what it is" as long as we allow it to be that way.

Of course it's hogwash. A great word BTW. But sometimes it's hard to tell hogwash from the fabric of reality. I mean, like, we can't even change our politicians because even after they screw us blind, they get re-elected 90% of the time. So how can we hope for anything but increased surveillance? Just as how can we hope for a nuke-free planet? The lion is already out of its cage. The very surveillance you object to is the very surveillance that will catch you opposing it.

You really need to read more dystopian novels. Then you'll understand how completely ****ed we are.

Unless you have a better idea..............

 

[StringBean]

I dunno, I don't really have a problem with any of that. I could really care less if the government snoops into my private life, I'm not a criminal or a terrorist.

Then you are a pathetic citizen of this country.

Go play with your new iphone app, hapless pawn.

 

[VanceMack]

Depends...is the president a democrat or republican?

 

[lizzie]

...can I seriously just ask this question?

How many of you really feel Obama is following some sinister script layed down by Adolf Hitler?

How many of you really believe this ...be honest.
How many believe Obama will be kicking in people's door in the dead of night ...and ...systematically murder them?

This thread has nothing to do with Obama- not sure why you seemed to think it did.

 

[Ikari]

It's time for a change, folks. It's time for the citizens of this nation to stand up and take our country back.

I think it's a HUGE deal. The level of data aggregation and collection, the datamining and data basing....it's too much. It's a complete violation of our rights and I think people know this. Some don't want to do anything because it means educating themselves and maybe not just blindly voting for Republocrats. But we are well into a regime of uncontrolled government and this sort of thing is only going to get worse. If you don't take action now, you'll settle for nothing later.