Are you being reasonable?

[Simpletruther]

A challenge for you.

If you can agree with the following proposition, then you are being reasonable, if not you deserve no effort at reasonable dialogue on this topic.

it is literally impossible on a practical level for cops to kill blacks at the same rate they kill whites. It is to be expected that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than whites, and does not necessarily indicate a problem or injustice. How much higher, reasonable people can debate.

This undeniable truth flows directly from the fact that blacks murder at an astounding, almost unfathomable 5 times the rate of whites.

The national conversation almost never goes here, left talking heads rarely ever approach the topic with this reasonable position. And progress cannot be made unless people are reasonable. I think it’s irresponsible and contributes to death suffering and division to take that approach, To demand the impossible and cry injustice when it cannot be achieved.. It is literally impossible for cops to kill blacks at the same rate as whites.


Now, if you want reasonable debate, offer me a reason why I should not expect approximately 5 times more Black Death by cop, given they murder 5 times more?

That seems reasonable to expect, and wouldn’t seem to be any indication of targeting or injustice. If you disagree, why?

 

[Torus34]

A challenge for you.

If you can agree with the following proposition, then you are being reasonable, if not you deserve no effort at reasonable dialogue on this topic.

It is to be expected that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than whites, and does not necsssirly indicate a problem or injustice. How much higher, reasonable people can debate.

This undeniable truth flows directly from the fact that blacks murder at an astounding, almost unfathomable 5 times the rate of whites.

The national conversation almost never goes here, left talking heads rarely ever approach the topic with this reasonable position. And progress cannot be made unless people are reasonable. I think it’s irresponsible and contributes to death suffering and division to take that approach, To demand the impossible and cry injustice when it cannot be achieved.


Now, if you want reasoanobe [sic] debate, offer me a reason why I should not expect approximately 5 times more Black Death by cop, given they murder 5 times more?

That seems reasoanlbe [sic] to expect, and wouldn’t seem to be any indication of targeting or injustice. If you disagree, why?

Hi! I neither agree nor disagree with the proposition.

I do, however, wish to suggest that such an imbalance demonstrates undeniable racial inequality in the United States of America.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

 

[Simpletruther]

Hi! I neither agree nor disagree with the proposition.

I do, however, wish to suggest that such an imbalance indicates undeniable racial inequality in the United States of America.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

What reason can you offer to not agree?

 

[Torus34]

What reason can you offer to not agree?

Hi!

None. Nor do I intend to do so. Please re-read my post.

Regards, stay safe and well.

 

[Simpletruther]

Hi!

None. Nor do I intend to do so. Please re-read my post.

Regards, stay safe and well.

ok......

 

[jnug]

A challenge for you.

If you can agree with the following proposition, then you are being reasonable, if not you deserve no effort at reasonable dialogue on this topic.

It is to be expected that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than whites, and does not necessarily indicate a problem or injustice. How much higher, reasonable people can debate.

This undeniable truth flows directly from the fact that blacks murder at an astounding, almost unfathomable 5 times the rate of whites.

The national conversation almost never goes here, left talking heads rarely ever approach the topic with this reasonable position. And progress cannot be made unless people are reasonable. I think it’s irresponsible and contributes to death suffering and division to take that approach, To demand the impossible and cry injustice when it cannot be achieved. It is literally impossible for cops to kill blacks at the same rate as whites.


Now, if you want reasonable debate, offer me a reason why I should not expect approximately 5 times more Black Death by cop, given they murder 5 times more?

That seems reasonable to expect, and wouldn’t seem to be any indication of targeting or injustice. If you disagree, why?

Since your bolded line of text is about as definitive and concise as milk toast floating in a bowl of milk, there is not much to contest in it. There is also not much reason to debate it.

The line of your text that I have highlighted in orange is simply not even relevant to the question of Police violence and racial imbalance.

 

[TheParser]

1. The brutal reality of the violent crime committed by ethnicity X is simply too hurtful to be discussed in a calm, rational manner.

2. So apologists simply use the excuse of alleged "systemic racism."

3. During the coming decades, many attempts will be made to improve the situation: The police will be held to higher standards, reparations will be paid, some inner-city people will be moved to the suburbs, and many more cops and public officials will be members of ethnicity X.

4. Sadly, there will be little actual improvement. This unpleasant situation will last as long as the United States in its current configuration does.

 

[Simpletruther]

Since your bolded line of text is about as definitive and concise as milk toast floating in a bowl of milk, there is not much to contest in it. There is also not much reason to debate it.

The line of your text that I have highlighted in red is simply not even relevant to the question of Police violence and racial imbalance.

I think is relevant, given that higher rates of death is often given as evidence of injustice.

 

[Slartibartfast]

A challenge for you.

If you can agree with the following proposition, then you are being reasonable, if not you deserve no effort at reasonable dialogue on this topic.

it is literally impossible on a practical level for cops to kill blacks at the same rate they kill whites. It is to be expected that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than whites, and does not necessarily indicate a problem or injustice. How much higher, reasonable people can debate.

This undeniable truth flows directly from the fact that blacks murder at an astounding, almost unfathomable 5 times the rate of whites.

The national conversation almost never goes here, left talking heads rarely ever approach the topic with this reasonable position. And progress cannot be made unless people are reasonable. I think it’s irresponsible and contributes to death suffering and division to take that approach, To demand the impossible and cry injustice when it cannot be achieved.. It is literally impossible for cops to kill blacks at the same rate as whites.


Now, if you want reasonable debate, offer me a reason why I should not expect approximately 5 times more Black Death by cop, given they murder 5 times more?

That seems reasonable to expect, and wouldn’t seem to be any indication of targeting or injustice. If you disagree, why?

So you are trying to say that racial profiling is ok then?

 

[dex4974]

undeniable racial inequality in the United States of America.

What do you think the causes are?

 

[Slavister]

... offer me a reason why I should not expect approximately 5 times more Black Death by cop, given they murder 5 times more? ...

Number of justifiable deaths could indeed be proportional.

Does that excuse shots in the back or strangling someone to death while they are subdued and saying they cannot breath?

 

[dex4974]

Number of justifiable deaths could indeed be proportional.

Does that excuse shots in the back or strangling someone to death while they are subdued and saying they cannot breath?

Cops need better training. Blacks commit a lot of violent crime on average because they're more impoverished on average. Naturally untrained cops are going to be afraid of black people, especially black men. Those are the ones statistically most likely to kill them after all.

 

[jnug]

I think is relevant, given that higher rates of death is often given as evidence of injustice.

its irrelevant in this case because the murder of whites is predominantly by other whites and the murder of blacks is predominantly by other blacks. The racial component is insignificant. Numbers are not even close either way.

Lousy policing is lousy policing and we have a good bit of lousy policing in this country mainly because Police Unions have become too powerful. The result is that communities can no longer even try to define the policing they want for their communities and cops often simply do not do the job. Kenosha with regard to Blake is a good example and even with regard to the entire Rittenhouse fiasco. The cops on Blake cocked that up from the passenger side back corner of the vehicle all the way around it to the driver's side door. Since they had cocked it up to that point it appears the decision was "Oh well, I guess we will just shoot him".

The night of the Rittenhouse shootings, Kenosha PD was at complete odds with itself delivering mixed messages the entire time. That is one frigged up PD IMO.

 

[BlueTex]

1. The brutal reality of the violent crime committed by ethnicity X is simply too hurtful to be discussed in a calm, rational manner.

2. So apologists simply use the excuse of alleged "systemic racism."

3. During the coming decades, many attempts will be made to improve the situation: The police will be held to higher standards, reparations will be paid, some inner-city people will be moved to the suburbs, and many more cops and public officials will be members of ethnicity X.

4. Sadly, there will be little actual improvement. This unpleasant situation will last as long as the United States in its current configuration does.

Why do you suppose countries with similar diversity have far, far fewer police shootings?

 

[BlueTex]

its irrelevant in this case because the murder of whites is predominantly by other whites and the murder of blacks is predominantly by other blacks. The racial component is insignificant. Numbers are not even close either way.

Lousy policing is lousy policing and we have a good bit of lousy policing in this country mainly because Police Unions have become too powerful. The result is that communities can no longer even try to define the policing they want for their communities and cops often simply do not do the job. Kenosha with regard to Blake is a good example and even with regard to the entire Rittenhouse fiasco. The cops on Blake cocked that up from the passenger side back corner of the vehicle all the way around it to the driver's side door. Since they had cocked it up to that point it appears the decision was "Oh well, I guess we will just shoot him".

The night of the Rittenhouse shootings, Kenosha PD was at complete odds with itself delivering mixed messages the entire time. That is one frigged up PD IMO.

What policing in the US SHOULD be...

1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

Peelian principles - Wikipedia.

 

[ttwtt78640]

A challenge for you.

If you can agree with the following proposition, then you are being reasonable, if not you deserve no effort at reasonable dialogue on this topic.

it is literally impossible on a practical level for cops to kill blacks at the same rate they kill whites. It is to be expected that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than whites, and does not necessarily indicate a problem or injustice. How much higher, reasonable people can debate.

This undeniable truth flows directly from the fact that blacks murder at an astounding, almost unfathomable 5 times the rate of whites.

The national conversation almost never goes here, left talking heads rarely ever approach the topic with this reasonable position. And progress cannot be made unless people are reasonable. I think it’s irresponsible and contributes to death suffering and division to take that approach, To demand the impossible and cry injustice when it cannot be achieved.. It is literally impossible for cops to kill blacks at the same rate as whites.


Now, if you want reasonable debate, offer me a reason why I should not expect approximately 5 times more Black Death by cop, given they murder 5 times more?

That seems reasonable to expect, and wouldn’t seem to be any indication of targeting or injustice. If you disagree, why?

If police were killing (suspected or convicted) murderers (during the arrest process) then perhaps the murder rate would be at least potentially relevant. The idea that a suspect's race (gender or ethnicity) makes it justifiable for police to kill them is a dangerous (and insane?) premise.

It is impossible to have a reasoned debate over such a moronic claim.

 

[What if...?]

A challenge for you.

If you can agree with the following proposition, then you are being reasonable, if not you deserve no effort at reasonable dialogue on this topic.

it is literally impossible on a practical level for cops to kill blacks at the same rate they kill whites. It is to be expected that blacks are killed by police at a much higher rate than whites, and does not necessarily indicate a problem or injustice. How much higher, reasonable people can debate.

This undeniable truth flows directly from the fact that blacks murder at an astounding, almost unfathomable 5 times the rate of whites.

The national conversation almost never goes here, left talking heads rarely ever approach the topic with this reasonable position. And progress cannot be made unless people are reasonable. I think it’s irresponsible and contributes to death suffering and division to take that approach, To demand the impossible and cry injustice when it cannot be achieved.. It is literally impossible for cops to kill blacks at the same rate as whites.


Now, if you want reasonable debate, offer me a reason why I should not expect approximately 5 times more Black Death by cop, given they murder 5 times more?

That seems reasonable to expect, and wouldn’t seem to be any indication of targeting or injustice. If you disagree, why?

I'm white and I've seen cops abuse white people too. They don't kill us as often, we might have wealthy connected parents or something. But they bully and verbally and physically abuse us too. Give us free felonies as prizes for having smart mouths.

Cop culture in America is ****ed up almost beyond recognition.

It is past time to address it.

Think about this:

Had your bronzed god not completely blown our pandemic response all the protesters would never have had all this free time on their hands in the first place.

Funny how much stuff you're mad at somebody else about is really your one true love's fault.

 

[Craig234]

This is all but impossible for a useful discussion.

I wish that weren't the case. I'm a progressive white person who was assaulted (blind punch in the head) by a 'thug' (could be any race, it's the mentality) black person on Sunday, who it's almost sure will never be punished. I have observed that black people seem more likely to have those issues; others are kind, good people, of course, and some people of all races are 'thugs'.

The problem on discussing it includes that I don't remember ever meeting a right-wing person who did not approach the issue with an agenda mindset, looking for validation just to attack black people, like it was a game to get liberals to have to agree crime rates by black people are higher, and then game won, nothing else to discuss. Pointless and harmful.

I have to admit we on the left aren't always best at discussing the issue, either. We're better at promoting equality and justice than we are at addressing problems - though we're a lot better at the basics, like policing and jail, than the right understands.

So, we'll go on with the right defending injustice, and the left largely ignoring 'inconvenient truths' even if the cause is primarily injustices in the past, with both sides feeling they're right.

We probably will see some good reforms on the side of where the police sometimes do wrong, as the movement to do so has a lot of organization and support. That's good. It just shouldn't go too far, such as harming good police officers or preventing good law enforcement.

 

[TheParser]

Why do you suppose countries with similar diversity have far, far fewer police shootings?

To the best of my knowledge, there has NEVER been such a "diverse" nation in history like the U.S.

Many history books have referred to the U.S. as an "experiment."

IMHO, I believe that after hundreds of years of experience, it is fair to say that the experiment has failed.

I sincerely hope and expect that in the coming decades, people of goodwill are going to finally accept this hurtful truth and come up with a harmonious parting of the ways.




Have a nice day!

 

[Simpletruther]

So you are trying to say that racial profiling is ok then?

I didn’t remotely imply that in the OP.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I didn’t remotely imply that in the OP.

Then why bring up the stat about 5 times the homicide rate?

 

[Simpletruther]

This is all but impossible for a useful discussion.

I wish that weren't the case. I'm a progressive white person who was assaulted (blind punch in the head) by a 'thug' (could be any race, it's the mentality) black person on Sunday, who it's almost sure will never be punished. I have observed that black people seem more likely to have those issues; others are kind, good people, of course, and some people of all races are 'thugs'.

The problem on discussing it includes that I don't remember ever meeting a right-wing person who did not approach the issue with an agenda mindset, looking for validation just to attack black people, like it was a game to get liberals to have to agree crime rates by black people are higher, and then game won, nothing else to discuss. Pointless and harmful.

I have to admit we on the left aren't always best at discussing the issue, either. We're better at promoting equality and justice than we are at addressing problems - though we're a lot better at the basics, like policing and jail, than the right understands.

So, we'll go on with the right defending injustice, and the left largely ignoring 'inconvenient truths' even if the cause is primarily injustices in the past, with both sides feeling they're right.

We probably will see some good reforms on the side of where the police sometimes do wrong, as the movement to do so has a lot of organization and support. That's good. It just shouldn't go too far, such as harming good police officers or preventing good law enforcement.

Well some of that actually sounded reasonable, but the bolded part totally destroys any credibility you have, or any motivation to reason with you.

 

[Simpletruther]

Number of justifiable deaths could indeed be proportional.

Does that excuse shots in the back or strangling someone to death while they are subdued and saying they cannot breath?

Of course not, that should go without saying.

 

[Simpletruther]

its irrelevant in this case because the murder of whites is predominantly by other whites and the murder of blacks is predominantly by other blacks. The racial component is insignificant. Numbers are not even close either way.

The high murder rate among blacks is a proxy for “proportional violent threat to police”.

The fsct thst blacks mostly kill other blacks does not negate that increased statistical threat to police.

It is very likely the reason mostly blacks are the victims of other blacks is simply a factor or proximity, it’s incredibly unlikely that black murderers showing more restraint with whites, and trying to target just other blacks while trying to avoid killing whites. . Other blacks just happen to be in the line of fire more.

S IMO the point stands, we should expect more black deaths by cop, given the higher violent tendencies.

Lousy policing is lousy policing and we have a good bit of lousy policing in this country mainly because Police Unions have become too powerful. The result is that communities can no longer even try to define the policing they want for their communities and cops often simply do not do the job. Kenosha with regard to Blake is a good example and even with regard to the entire Rittenhouse fiasco. The cops on Blake cocked that up from the passenger side back corner of the vehicle all the way around it to the driver's side door. Since they had cocked it up to that point it appears the decision was "Oh well, I guess we will just shoot him".

The night of the Rittenhouse shootings, Kenosha PD was at complete odds with itself delivering mixed messages the entire time. That is one frigged up PD IMO.

Generally agree here especially with unions. But I doubt I see the problem as severe as you. Cops are humans and make mistakes even when well trained in these intense conditions. But ya there are bully cops, bad cops etc. and it needs to improve.

 

[Simpletruther]

Then why bring up the stat about 5 times the homicide rate?

Because it is a reasonable proxy for “proportional average danger threat” as well as “proportional dangerous encounters with cops”.

And these things will determine the proportional death by cop rate (on an average basis) unless some bias or targeting is happening, then We would expect to see a difference in these proportions.

proportionately more black deaths are to be expected because there will be proportionally more dangerous encounters with dangerous blacks, becasue they commit proportionately more violent crime resulting in the proportionality More dangerous contact with cops.