Are you a bigot?

[JMB802]

Its preposterous that this even has to be said. Just goes to show what happens when wokeness runs amok.

Okey dokey.

 

[Josie]

You think we need to concentrate on "sex". I think it's only fair that we concentrate on all the biological parameters that indicate a human has an unfair biological advantage in either division.

So, for example for swimming --- height, shoulder width, arm and leg strength...?

 

[JMB802]

So, for example for swimming --- height, shoulder width, arm and leg strength...?

I'm not a trained scientist and won't play one on DP.

But as mentioned above, surely there are tests that can discover unfair biological advantages in both divisions. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[HelpMe]

Allowing altered men to compete against women is unfair and pushes women out of the very sports designed for them. It is women and girls who are suffering here, not the trans community.

 

[BirdinHand]

I am not a trained scientist and don't play one in DP.

But surely there are tests that can be performed in BOTH divisions to discover unfair biological advantages. IMO, it's a "fair" way to solve the problem.

I do not object to testing for any performance-enhancing drugs or hormone levels for any athletes. So we are in agreement.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I do not object to testing for any performance-enhancing drugs or hormone levels for any athletes. So we are in agreement.

A separate league for fully enhanced athletes would be quite interesting.

 

[Kreton]

Some sports I am not convinced it would matter. Some I am. Being male or female at birth carries certain differences that impact some sports. Someone born a male, not matter what alternations have happened, should not be involved in physical sports with people who were born female. It is dangerous and unfair.

Personally I think the whole topic is about gender is kind of bigoted though from both sides. People are bigoted on both sides of this argument for believing that someone should act, dress, behave, talk or whatever else a certain way because of genitals. The idea that it is wrong for a person born a male shouldn't dress in traditional female clothing, wear make up, or act like a "female" is incredibly bigoted and stupid. They should be open to what makes them happy. However the other side isn't much better. As a society we've created a culture that pushes people who enjoy certain behavior and appearances to believe they should be a female and need to alter their bodies to do so. We even create needless labels for them like trans or pre op and post op and whatever else.

To me it is ****ing exhausting. Just let people be people and do what they do that makes them happier in their limited time on Earth. I wish we as a society could get to a point that we can stop defining people for wearing clothes or their sexual preferences. That include demonizes them like they tend to do on the right, and glorifying them like they tend to do on the left. Having sex and wearing clothes does not make a person disgusting or a hero. Just leave people be and let them live their life they way they want.

 

[Gaius46]

You think we need to concentrate on "sex". I think it's only fair that we concentrate on all the biological parameters that indicate a human has an unfair biological advantage in either division.

Without going into a dissertation sex has been used because of the obvious differences between males and females both in terms of genetic potential and the stark differences in performance.

Testosterone was used to determine sex because the women have vastly lower levels of testosterone and because women objected to physical examinations of their genitals. Chromosome testing was tried but it disqualified women who had Y chromosomes but were in all other respects - reproductive organs, hormone level, LBM, muscle makeup etc - female.

Sex testing has always been problem with respect to outlier cases. And I'd suggest there is NO testing that would be perfectly fair.

We can try to class athletes by genetic potential and use something like lean body mass, or ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fibers or a combination of factors. That has attractive quality of rewarding hard work - i.e. those that have maximized their potential - as opposed to rewarding people who, while working hard, started life more gifted.

But the reality is that even segregating by genetic potential at the end of the day most biological males will wind up competing together as will most biological females. In that case there are still outliers - both hyperandrogenic women and trans women who will be forced to compete against men to their - the women's - detriment and biological men who are classed lower and compete against mostly women likely to the detriment of the women.

Whatever scheme you use you cannot get perfect fairness. You either treat the outliers unfairly or you treat the vast bulk of the athletes unfairly. In that case I'd fall squarely on doing the least harm and treat the outliers unfairly.

 

[antiquity]

Are you a bigot for thinking that biological males/trans females shouldn't be allowed to participate in individual women's sports? Please vote and discuss below.

Believing in scientific facts is not being a bigot.

 

[JMB802]

Without going into a dissertation sex has been used because of the obvious differences between males and females both in terms of genetic potential and the stark differences in performance.

Testosterone was used to determine sex because the women have vastly lower levels of testosterone and because women objected to physical examinations of their genitals and then chromosome testing disqualified women who had Y chromosomes but were in all other respects - reproductive organs, hormone level, LBM, muscle makeup etc - female.

It has always been problem with respect to outlier cases.

We try to class athletes by genetic potential and use something like lean body mass, or ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fibers or a combination of factors. That has attractive quality of rewarding hard work - i.e. those that have maximized their potential - as opposed to rewarding people who, while working hard, started life more gifted.

But the reality is that even segregating by genetic potential at the end of the day most biological males will wind up competing together as will most biological females. In that case there are still outliers - both hyperandrogenic women and trans women who will be forced to compete against men to their detriment and biological men who are classed lower and compete against mostly women likely to the detriment of the women.

Whatever scheme you use you cannot get perfect fairness. You either treat the outliers unfairly or you treat the vast bulk of the athletes unfairly. In that case I'd fall squarely on doing the least harm and treat the outliers unfairly.

My point, once again, is that if the outliers in women's sports are eliminated because they exceed predetermined biological parameters that the same should happen in men's sports.

It's not that complicated. And not unfair.

 

[Gaius46]

My point, once again, is that if the outliers in women's sports are eliminated because they exceed predetermined biological parameters that the same should happen in men's sports.

It's not that complicated. And not unfair.

The outliers in men's sports would be classed mostly with women and would likely dominate their sports.

 

[JMB802]

The outliers in men's sports would be classed mostly with women and would likely dominate their sports.

Are you saying that men who exceed biological parameters in men's sports would qualify as women?

 

[eohrnberger]

Are you a bigot for thinking that biological males/trans females shouldn't be allowed to participate in individual women's sports? Please vote and discuss below.

Biological males/trans females shouldn't be allowed to participate in individual women's sports.
Depends on the sport. Anything physical, athletic, no, being a biological male bring with it having physical advantages.
Something more skill based, say, such as trap shooting, I think everyone should compete in a single group.
NASCAR and drag racing, I believe, have no differentiation.

The goal to strive for is to have a fair and level playing field for everyone in the competition, as long as that it met, I'll have no complaints about it.

 

[Noodlegawd]

You'd be a bigot if you think that women's sports should have hormone standards and men's sports should not.

If women can't exceed standards because it theoretically gives them an unfair advantage then the same should apply to men.

That makes no sense. The only legitimate reason women's sports should exist as a separate thing from men's sports in the first place is that women, on average, cannot compete with men.

If we could come up with some other objective criteria to stratify competitive sports, especially at the top level, there'd be no need for separate women's sports and indeed to separate it should be considered sexist.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Are you a bigot for thinking that biological males/trans females shouldn't be allowed to participate in individual women's sports? Please vote and discuss below.

I have a better question. Is the existence of women's sports "sexist" and therefore a form of bigotry?

 

[mrjurrs]

Are you a bigot for thinking that biological males/trans females shouldn't be allowed to participate in individual women's sports? Please vote and discuss below.

bigot, noun, a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

“Society has categorical views on what should define sex and gender, but the biological reality is just not there to support that.”

Male or female? It's not always so simple

At UCLA, there's a small but growing field of study looking into sex and gender biology.

newsroom.ucla.edu

So I would say...yes you are.

 

[Gaius46]

Are you saying that men who exceed biological parameters in men's sports would qualify as women?

There are no biological parameters in place today for them to exceed. The only studies I’m aware of that have been done on elite male athletes have them falling within the normal reference range for testosterone for males (steroid abusing cheaters aside). You’d likely be hard pressed to define biological parameters for men that excluded some elite male athletes without also excluding a large number of men generally.

But even if you could so what? You still have to accept that lower bound men would compete with mostly women and likely dominate their sports and upper bound women would likely compete with men and lose to them. Your proposal does nothing to address that, does nothing to make things "more fair" and only punishes some men. Is that your goal?

 

[vegas giants]

This wouldn't be an issue if transitioning people had access to proper therapy, which conservative theocrats are laser focused on denying them.

Also, while you can have a differing opinion on sports participation and not be a bigot, this issue is designed to discriminate against the transgendered community, and people pushing it to the forefront are definitely bigots.

If you think about this issue for more than 5 seconds a week, and your child or family member isn't a transitioning athlete, you should really have your head examined.

What if you have a daughter on a swim team who has to compete against someone like lia?

 

[Daisy]

Why? Just participate in the sport of your biological sex.

Messin' with hormones does make a difference...

 

[TurtleDude]

Honestly depends. So many people complain about trans athletes in bad faith. They aren't interested in creating a fair playing ground in women's sports, they just want to weaponize a pearl clutching "but what about the ciswomen " argument to hurt transwomen. These people often misgender transwomen and want them to have no rights.

Myself and some other people on this forum, however, just want the science and sports folks to figure out some sort of fair standard so that all women can play on equal footing. I don't think that's bigoted at all.

it is more prevalent that many who care nothing about athletics and sportsmanship, push letting XY athletes compete against XX athletes for SJW reasons and nothing more

 

[JMB802]

There are no biological parameters in place today for them to exceed.

And? Why can't they be established?

The only studies I’m aware of that have been done on elite male athletes have them falling within the normal reference range for testosterone for males (steroid abusing cheaters aside). You’d likely be hard pressed to define biological parameters for men that excluded some elite male athletes without also excluding a large number of men generally.

Do you have a degree and career in the field?

But even if you could so what? You still have to accept that lower bound men would compete with mostly women and likely dominate their sports and upper bound women would likely compete with men and lose to them. Your proposal does nothing to address that, does nothing to make things "more fair" and only punishes some men. Is that your goal?

You keep trying to dispute a point that I never made.

I said that it would be "fair" to test to find out which humans exceed biological parameters for their division. I never said that low-level outlier men could automatically compete as women.

 

[JMB802]

That makes no sense. The only legitimate reason women's sports should exist as a separate thing from men's sports in the first place is that women, on average, cannot compete with men.

If we could come up with some other objective criteria to stratify competitive sports, especially at the top level, there'd be no need for separate women's sports and indeed to separate it should be considered sexist.

How does it not make sense to fairly apply parameters for participation in each division? Goose, gander and all that.

 

[trixare4kids]

Males and trans females shouldn't be allowed to participate in womens' sports...If you are born a female, play on female teams. If you're a male, play on male teams. There is no wiggle room here.

The "woke" can cancel me now and call me names.

 

[Gaius46]

You keep trying to dispute a point that I never made.

I said that it would be "fair" to test to find out which humans exceed biological parameters for their division. I never said that low-level outlier men could automatically compete as women.

And you still wind up with trans women and biological women with higher levels of testosterone competing with men. Back to square one with the addition of potentially getting rid of some elite male athletes while likely disqualifying large swaths of men in general.

Low level outlier men can still compete with men but if you are looking for "fair" and want to base that one biological parameters you don't look at who exceeds but who falls within a range.

 

[Lucky 1]

Are you a bigot for thinking that biological males/trans females shouldn't be allowed to participate in individual women's sports? Please vote and discuss below.

Biological males-Trans females....are not actually female, they are men and have no business in biological woman's sports.

Its really that simple and has everything to do with fairness and absolutely nothing to do with bigotry.