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Are we failing the Founders? [W:64,W:111]

Absolutism is stupid. What more is there to explain?
 
ecofarm said:
Obviously the founders had some problems with it. But to expect them to advocate banning it is ridiculous given context, it's judging people unfairly.
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You have no argument from me on that point. There seems to have been this long campaign waged by progressives which includes the elites of both parties against our country's founding. My feelings are the reason for this attack on the Founders is to discredit them and in doing so discredit the Constitution, the one thing that has stood in their way of making the progressive changes they desire. There's a book titled Vindicating the Founders by Thomas West. He takes on the intellectuals that has charged the founders with things like racism, economic elitism, and sexism. It's a real good read.
 
vesper said:
You have no argument from me on that point. There seems to have been this long campaign waged by progressives which includes the elites of both parties against our country's founding. My feelings are the reason for this attack on the Founders is to discredit them and in doing so discredit the Constitution, the one thing that has stood in their way of making the progressive changes they desire. There's a book titled Vindicating the Founders by Thomas West. He takes on the intellectuals that has charged the founders with things like racism, economic elitism, and sexism. It's a real good read.
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All it takes to discredit the founders is an honest look at the facts. They were slave-holding, bigoted, oath-breaking plutocrats.
 
Its out of respect. Actually lack of respect which I don't mind illustrating on an anonymous forum. God forbid I try that in real life the IRS would be all over me. I can't afford that crap. I am sorry it bugs you so much, but I don't care. The man isn't deserving. I find him to be quite pathetic, irritating and his actions have failed miserably. Our country is not better off than it was when he started - and I voted for him the first time.


windowdressing said:
there you go again with your childish antics ... and the conversation was going so well before you injected yourself into it ... Cal, you do realize that the president does not read these threads, right? So calling him names, etc. is a waste of time, no? "ofailure?" Really? What's next ... Obummer has cooties?
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CalGun said:
Its out of respect. Actually lack of respect which I don't mind illustrating on an anonymous forum. God forbid I try that in real life the IRS would be all over me. I can't afford that crap. I am sorry it bugs you so much, but I don't care. The man isn't deserving. I find him to be quite pathetic, irritating and his actions have failed miserably. Our country is not better off than it was when he started - and I voted for him the first time.
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I loved your IRS comment :rock ... but don't worry about me, it doesn't bug me (oh wait, never mind, I just realized you said you didn't care :( ... I was trying to do you a favor ... take care ...
 
Guy Incognito said:
All it takes to discredit the founders is an honest look at the facts. They were slave-holding, bigoted, oath-breaking plutocrats.
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that's just plain contrarian stupidity in that post-an attempt to create conflict for the sake of creating conflict.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Bull****. It's a moral pass. You are saying, "slavery is ok sometimes if it's, like, really inconvenient to not own slaves. You know, 'cuz context."

That's you. You said that.
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You're getting your ass handed to you here. You're making up **** now about what people are saying. It's a clear sign of failure.
 
Guy Incognito said:
All it takes to discredit the founders is an honest look at the facts. They were slave-holding, bigoted, oath-breaking plutocrats.
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You vote for those types of people all the time, so you discredit yourself.
 
American said:
You're getting your ass handed to you here. You're making up **** now about what people are saying. It's a clear sign of failure.
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On the contrary, I am winning the argument quite handily (as usual). The opposition basically falls into two camps. The first is outright denial that the founders did anything wrong, which is simply pathetic and untenable. This sort of argument is rooted in a quasi-religious worship of the founders.

The second group, like ecofarm, are moral relativists. There's a perpetual stalemate between relativists like ecofarm and people with firm moral principles, like myself. But the key is calling them out on the fact that their relativism can be used to jusitfy any atrocity, and they fold.

The founders broke their oaths, owned slaves, oppressed women, denied the vote to the poor, and perpetrated a genocide against the Native Americans. They were immoral and not to be admired.

Q.E.D.
 
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Moderator's Warning:
There's a mod warning in thread here that is not being adhered to. Please stick to the topic only without the obvious attempts at baiting that are clearly going on in here. The aggressiveness and attempts to bait end now. No more warrnings.
 
Guy Incognito said:
On the contrary, I am winning the argument quite handily (as usual). The opposition basically falls into two camps. The first is outright denial that the founders did anything wrong, which is simply pathetic and untenable. This sort of argument is rooted in a quasi-religious worship of the founders.

The second group, like ecofarm, are moral relativists. There's a perpetual stalemate between relativists like ecofarm and people with firm moral principles, like myself. But the key is calling them out on the fact that their relativism can be used to jusitfy any atrocity, and they fold.

The founders broke their oaths, owned slaves, oppressed women, denied the vote to the poor, and perpetrated a genocide against the Native Americans. They were immoral and not to be admired.

Q.E.D.
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what matters is the government and nation they created. none of the things you complain about tainted the document
 
Honestly, we need to change to government to make it more representative of the people. The French Fifth Republic is the best option. Our system isn't the best in the world and is outmoded compared to the rest of the world. Also democratic government isn't failing anyone, that is just a conservative talking point. Even the ever liberal Heritage Foundation ranks us as number 10 on the economic freedom list. Parliamentary Democracies are doing better on the freedom index than we are. Our nation ranks anywhere from 7 to 17. A Westminster Parliamentary system wouldn't go over well in this country because we aren't used to it. A Semi Presidential government is close to our present form of government. The only differences would be that House would be larger, Congress would control the cabinet, and we would have a Prime Minister.
 
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