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Are we failing the Founders? [W:64,W:111]

At the time of the original founding, only a lazy man had no land and paid no taxes. I imagine that land was probably free, all you had to do was utilize it.

307 million people later, that would be a rather implausible method of determining the merit to vote. Theoretically, I could live in a $20,000 a month penthouse in New York City, use tax credits from a previous year to pay nothing this year and lose my right to vote. So, that system is gone.

As far as "paying taxes", what taxes did they have in 1776? That's a real question - the income tax is only 100 years old but of course everyone pays taxes now, one way or another. But back then - how did that work?

Unfortunately, we have overshot the new reality and we don't even require you to own a single piece of ID to vote, let alone land and taxes. I suppose eventually the pendulum will stop somewhere at the center.


yes, people had to have land and made a living from that land, and they paid taxes on it, there was no income tax, taxes also were collected on duties, impose or excises into the union, but under the founders they were voluntary, and they had to be uniform.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises..............but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

ask yourself this question when it comes to voting though, if you pay no federal income tax, do theycare if they are raised, or if government wants to spend tax money on new federal laws /powers.....no.. becuase its not coming out of that person's pocket.

votes are being bought becuase politicians tell their constituents they well keep government handouts coming ...if elected.

you will note that government spending, and the expansion of government rises shapely after income tax in created.....income tax which has evolved in to a heavy progressive tax...

funny in 1848 Karl Marx, called for heavy progressives taxes.
 
Don't romaticize the founders. They were bigoted, plutocratic slaveholding criminals. As a society we have far exceeded them. We should look back on them with contempt for the horrors they perpetrated.

THIS IS SOME primo idiocy. Criminals? LOL
 
No, the founders would be upset that people unable to support themselve have the right to vote (not to mention women and minorities).

The wisdom of the founders manifests its aura again.
 
yes, people had to have land and made a living from that land, and they paid taxes on it, there was no income tax, taxes also were collected on duties, impose or excises into the union, but under the founders they were voluntary, and they had to be uniform.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises..............but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

ask yourself this question when it comes to voting though, if you pay no federal income tax, do theycare if they are raised, or if government wants to spend tax money on new federal laws /powers.....no.. becuase its not coming out of that person's pocket.

votes are being bought becuase politicians tell their constituents they well keep government handouts coming ...if elected.

you will note that government spending, and the expansion of government rises shapely after income tax in created.....income tax which has evolved in to a heavy progressive tax...

funny in 1848 Karl Marx, called for heavy progressives taxes.

I can't argue anything you said. Your analysis is pretty accurate. So, what do you think we should do instead? Within reason please.
 
The wisdom of the founders manifests its aura again.

I'm thinking that, given the cumbersome presidential election system, the stultifying constitution and the interminable states-rights disputes, the founders let you guys down.
 
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I'm thinking that, given the cumbersome presidential election system, the stultifying constitution and the interminable states-rights disputes, the founders let you guys down.
At the time, they did very well. Now it is our turn.
 
I'm thinking that, given the cumbersome presidential election system, the stultifying constitution and the interminable states-rights disputes, the founders let you guys down.

well remind us what nation you hail from so we can compare things
 
At the time, they did very well. Now it is our turn.

Simpler is better. Make it workable, that's the rule when you're designing something purely functional. I know this because of my work. A lot of high-sounding words just get in the way.
Make it simple.
 
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I have a problem with lying

(grin!)
Canada. According to Churchill (Winnie, dontcha know?) the parliamentary system is the worst in tyhe world, except for all the others.
 
(grin!)
Canada. According to Churchill (Winnie, dontcha know?) the parliamentary system is the worst in tyhe world, except for all the others.

ah our third most important satellite. without you the NHL would be a bit weaker and maple syrup a bit more expensive:mrgreen:
 
I can't argue anything you said. Your analysis is pretty accurate. So, what do you think we should do instead? Within reason please.


i believe myself, that we should go to a consumption tax or fair tax, which of coarse the people with more money will pay a larger share of the tax, however it would be voluntary.

all people should have to pay some taxes to the federal government for its duties it has under the constitution.

however we also must reduce federal spending across the board, and reduce regulations, not abolish them, to make a good environment for job creation.

but most important, we must return to republican government, democracy with its factions/ special interest will always be the ruin of government, as the founders state, by returning to divided power, the people and the states, we remove the tyranny of one, which is what democracy promotes, power in only one.

and if we dont uphold the constitution, and we allow of politicians to enforce laws as the please, go around laws they dont like, we will never return to be a nation of laws and prosperity.
 
After reading the Federalist Papers in school and many of them recently, I have realized that the government the Founders set out to create has been a failure compared to how governments in Europe function. The Founders wanted a country that had many political groups that had a say in the political system rather than the two we have. The two are basically five parties pretending to be two, but are really just the same parties with slight differences. All European governments have at least three political parties that have to build coalitions to run the legislative branch of government. It also surprised me that the politician say we are the best government in the world, even though the most copied governmental structure since 1989 is the French Fifth Republic.

My idea is to replicate to some extent the modern French government. We should also have the states create multi-member districts or use proportional representation on a party list vote to elect our House members. Both of these proposed changes will make us have to expand the size of the House because multi-member districts need to have three representatives. The French government has separation of powers like ours does, but some powers are divided differently. In France, the lower house of the legislative branch runs the daily functions of the government and is led by a Prime Minister. The President appoints the Prime Minister out of the majority of the lower house or the predominate ideology. The President then can't fire the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister must come from the predominant ideology because the lower house doesn't have to accept the Prime Minister if the appointee can't gain a majority. The President and Prime Minister then work together to build the rest of the cabinet. I know this sound very foreign, but any change in elector procedures, whether it be proportional representation, multi-member districts or both, we would need to have the House of Representative run the day to day functions to give them incentive to work with each other and the President to keep the government functioning. This prevents the current intransigence of the House because the government on the whole wouldn't work without some cooperation with the President.

In this system, the President will still have veto power, but can't dissolve the cabinet and House on his own. The House could dissolve itself if the leadership lost the confidence of the majority of the House as a whole. The President would also have the ability to propose legislation directly. The Senate would also lose the ability to stop cabinet appointments because this would become the House's problem. It should also be ingrained in the Constitution that the Senate only pass bills on a simple majority and also make a majority in the House 55% as a compromise. Also the election date would need to be allowed to float for the House because the majority could collapse before the next election. In this system, the House term would have to be extended to a maximum of four years. I propose that we move the elections to Saturday.The term of the President would remain fixed and the election date would remain the same, other than moving the election date to a Saturday in November instead of Tuesday. Also in these proposed changes, only Article 1 and 2 need to be changed, the rest of the Constitution will remain untouched.

I know that most conservative won't like any changes to the Constitution, but the Founders envisioned a county and our current state isn't what was envisioned. We should change the Constitution to reflect what they Founders wanted, even if we have to model our government after a republic in Europe. We may have done many innovative things in the 1790's, be we need to look at what the rest of the world has done to innovate and make a more representative government. Just because we were the first true republic since Rome founded by some of the best political minds of the time, doesn't mean that we shouldn't change to become more democratic and stable like the governments in France and Poland.

The founders idea was a government without political parties or factions as they were known then. Not a ton of political parties like in Europe, none. The idea was to let each individual run on his own for what ever office. Not to be backed by factions or parties. The founders were afraid at sometime in the future if political parties/factions came into existence, then the people we elected would then put parties over country, state etc.

This has come to pass, Republicans oppose anything the Democrats propose and the Demcorats oppose everything the Republicans propose only because it was proposed by the other party. Merit does not entry the fray. Our Representatives are more loyal and vote most of the time time with their party, not the way the people of their district wish. The same for the senate as regards to their state. One improvement would be doing away with the 17th amendment. Let the house represent the people, the senate the states as envisioned. Now the senate is no more than a miniture house.
 
ah our third most important satellite. without you the NHL would be a bit weaker and maple syrup a bit more expensive:mrgreen:

Ah, your biggest trading partner and your biggest trading deficit. Not to mention your best hope for a stable energy supply.
We'll send you those awkward kids who play baseball and you'll send us, uh, watery beer?
 
Ah, your biggest trading partner and your biggest trading deficit. Not to mention your best hope for a stable energy supply.
We'll send you those awkward kids who play baseball and you'll send us, uh, watery beer?

The Reds' best player is from canada. You guys had a cute pairs skating team in one of the last games-he was straight too.
 
Don't romaticize the founders. They were bigoted, plutocratic slaveholding criminals. As a society we have far exceeded them. We should look back on them with contempt for the horrors they perpetrated.
That's nothing compared to what happens in abortion clinics.
 
i believe myself, that we should go to a consumption tax or fair tax, which of coarse the people with more money will pay a larger share of the tax, however it would be voluntary.

all people should have to pay some taxes to the federal government for its duties it has under the constitution.

however we also must reduce federal spending across the board, and reduce regulations, not abolish them, to make a good environment for job creation.

but most important, we must return to republican government, democracy with its factions/ special interest will always be the ruin of government, as the founders state, by returning to divided power, the people and the states, we remove the tyranny of one, which is what democracy promotes, power in only one.

and if we dont uphold the constitution, and we allow of politicians to enforce laws as the please, go around laws they dont like, we will never return to be a nation of laws and prosperity.

I'm afraid that consumption taxes are not an idea whose time has come. The main problem being that people with more money don't necessarily spend more money. As you say, it's voluntary. My guess is that rich people will go shopping in Mexico and avoid the tax. I certainly would. So while there are brilliant tax solutions out there (search for Speckle-Tax) we're probably stuck with the current tax system which is not a beautiful or gracious one.

Didn't we recently cut federal spending by virtue of the sequester? And honestly, what's so awful about Federal spending. At least they employ Americans unless they're already outsourcing our bureaucracy to India. They just need to spend more intelligently.

You're never going to get a perfect government until an AI takes over (and they will - just a matter of time) and gives us a sort of Benevolent Dictator/Meritocracy administrated world leadership.,

We elected these jokers. Just saying.
 
I'm afraid that consumption taxes are not an idea whose time has come. The main problem being that people with more money don't necessarily spend more money. As you say, it's voluntary. My guess is that rich people will go shopping in Mexico and avoid the tax. I certainly would. So while there are brilliant tax solutions out there (search for Speckle-Tax) we're probably stuck with the current tax system which is not a beautiful or gracious one.

government likes the progressive tax on income, becuase its gives them control over the people..."the power to tax is the power to destroy"

a consumption after abolishing income tax.

consumption taxes, are not meant to be high like income, consumption is also the best form of tax...why, because when government raises the tax, the population feels its impact immediately, therefore governments have to be careful in raising the tax, and not raising it to high to fast.

the current system is not working with about 50%of the people paying no federal income tax, and some of those people receiving money from government,



Didn't we recently cut federal spending by virtue of the sequester? And honestly, what's so awful about Federal spending. At least they employ Americans unless they're already outsourcing our bureaucracy to India. They just need to spend more intelligently.

the government is in debt 17 trillion dollars.thats the national debt.

the government is spending about 3.5 trillion a year, while it was spending 1.5 trillion in 1995

but government only brings in about 2.3 trillion in revenue, leaving a short fall of over a trillion dollars every year ,adding to the national debt.

when you over spending by more than a trillion dollars, cutting spending a faction, does not do any good.

can anyone explain how cutting about 100 billion a year, does any good, since we are still over spending and adding to the debt, it expect that by the time obama leaves office the debt, will be over 20 trillion dollars.

this is a simple breakdown of what government is doing in smaller numbers, and represented by a family household........the family brings in a total of 23,000 a year in income ....but spends 35,000 a year.... while cutting that spending by about 4% a year...big deal.....no real progress on out of control spending.


In United States federal legislation, the term budget sequestration (or sequester) refers to automatic spending cuts in particular categories of federal outlays.[note 1] In 2013 specifically, sequestration refers to a section of the Budget Control Act of 2011 (BCA) that was initially set to begin on January 1, 2013, as an austerity fiscal policy. These cuts were postponed by two months by the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012 until March 1 when this law went into effect.[1]

The reductions in spending authority are approximately $85.4 billion (versus $42 billion in actual cash outlays[note 2]) during fiscal year 2013,[2](p14) with similar cuts for years 2014 through 2021. However, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the total federal outlays will continue to increase even with the sequester by an average of $238.6 billion per year[2](p3) during the next decade, although at a somewhat lesser rate.

The cuts are split evenly (by dollar amounts, not by percentages) between the defense and non-defense categories.[note 3] Some major programs like Social Security, Medicaid, federal pensions and veteran's benefits are exempt. By a special provision in the BCA, Medicare spending will be reduced by a fixed 2% per year versus the other, domestic percents planned for the sequester.[1] Federal pay rates (including military) are unaffected but the sequestration may result in involuntary unpaid time off, also known as furloughs.[4]

The sequester lowers spending by a total of approximately $1.1 trillion versus pre-sequester levels over the approximately 8 year period from 2013 to 2021. It lowers non-defense discretionary spending (i.e., certain domestic programs) by a range of 7.8% (in 2013) to 5.5% (in 2021) versus pre-sequester amounts, a total of $294 billion. Defense spending would likewise be lowered by 10% (in 2013) to 8.5% (in 2021), a total of $454 billion. Savings in non-defense mandatory spending would total $170 billion, while interest would be lowered by $169 billion.[1] The CBO estimated that sequestration would reduce 2013 economic growth by about 0.6 percentage points (from 2.0% to 1.4% or about $90B) and affect the creation or retention of about 750,000 jobs by year-end.[5]

The blunt nature[note 4] of the cuts has been criticized, with some favoring more tailored cuts and others arguing for postponement while the economy improves.[7]


You're never going to get a perfect government until an AI takes over (and they will - just a matter of time) and gives us a sort of Benevolent Dictator/Meritocracy administrated world leadership.,

We elected these jokers. Just saying.

governments are not perfect, they never are, even Madison stated that, however if the government stays within its constitutional boundaries, and controls its spending, government can be run with fewer problems, less money.
 
Don't romaticize the founders. They were bigoted, plutocratic slaveholding criminals. As a society we have far exceeded them. We should look back on them with contempt for the horrors they perpetrated.

Are you aware the first attempt to abolish slavery was originally in the Declaration of Independence? In order to get all 13 colonies on board for signatures, it was removed because a couple of the Southern colonies refused as long as that passage was in the document.

Here is a link that explains further. You might find it enlightening.

History Engine: Tools for Collaborative Education and Research | Episodes
 
Are you aware the first attempt to abolish slavery was originally in the Declaration of Independence? In order to get all 13 colonies on board for signatures, it was removed because a couple of the Southern colonies refused as long as that passage was in the document.

Here is a link that explains further. You might find it enlightening.

History Engine: Tools for Collaborative Education and Research | Episodes
The fact that the North caved to the demands of the South makes them complicit in the crime of slavery. Just one of the many human rights violations perpetrated by the founders.
 
The fact that the North caved to the demands of the South makes them complicit in the crime of slavery. Just one of the many human rights violations perpetrated by the founders.

Actually that is an inaccurate statement. As soon as the Revolutionary War was over the move to abolish slavery began and individual states one by one did just that. And even before the signing of the Constitution, the Founders operating under the Confederation Congress, signed the Northwest Ordinance in 1787 stating that future states joining the union would be seen as equals but prohibited slavery in the new states to follow.

Northwest Ordinance: Primary Documents of American History (Virtual Programs & Services, Library of Congress)
 
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Actually that is an inaccurate statement. As soon as the Revolutionary War was over the move to abolish slavery began and individual states one by one did just that. And even before the signing of the Constitution, the Founders operating under the Continental Congress, signed the Northwest Ordinance in 1787 stating that future states joining the union would be seen as equals but prohibited slavery in the new states to follow.

Northwest Ordinance: Primary Documents of American History (Virtual Programs & Services, Library of Congress)

Those are pathetic measures that failed to get the job done. You are simply rationalizing to try to make the founders' crimes more palatable to you.
 
Those are pathetic measures that failed to get the job done. You are simply rationalizing to try to make the founders' crimes more palatable to you.

Not at all for there is nothing to rationalize. But what you are failing to recognize is the original colonies under British rule were following the laws of Mother England. Slavery was a well established practice in that country and Europe as far as that goes. While the Founders were having the discussion to abolish slavery and some states taking it upon themselves to do so, Mother England wasn't even engaged in such talks.
 
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Are we failing the founders? Who cares? What matters is that we are failing ourselves.
 
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