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Are "undocumented immigrants" persons?

You're missing the point. The argument is that the Constitution requires a count of "the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed," so aliens unlawfully present should be counted and represented. There is no provision for not counting someone because federal funding won't be affected. If the argument for illegal aliens holds based on the words of the Constitution, then so too does the argument hold that visiting aliens should be counted. Persons on vacation on the census date in a different state should be counted in that state. People vacationing outside the country apparently don't deserve representation at all.


Sigh. Look before you leap, dude. Do some of the most basic research, like a Google search, instead of making shit up on the fly.

You're missing my point.

Really...why so combative?
 
I agree. There was a push to expel from the US students whose universities were going to be 100% online for the fall semester. I thought that was a mistake, though I did see a reasonable basis for not admitting students going to those same universities. If they're already here there's no purpose in making them leave, but there's no reason to import persons who are possibly infected who could attend class from their home the same way they'd attend while in the US. The administration backed off on the first part of this plan; off the top of my head, I'm not sure what happened to the second part. However, I do know the administration's response to the pandemic has included an almost-unheard-of showing of leniency in the form of granting what is called "satisfactory departure" for aliens who will overstay their admission on the Visa Waiver Program. They get 90 days, no exceptions, no extensions, and adjusting status is not allowed. This limit is being flexed a little during the pandemic. The only other time I'm aware of VWP overstays not incurring consequences (such as never being able to enter without a visa again) is an allowance made in the days after 11 Sep 2001 when there was no air travel at all.

OK on the visa, on a side note though, shifting college courses to on-line is probably not the way to go

There are plenty of on-line colleges already that are a lot cheaper than regular colleges.
 
Kind of funny, we allow, even encourage, capital to cross borders to seek a better return on its investment, but labor, Nah! We get upset at times when fences prevent caribou or some other species from moving to different places to eat, calve, whatever, take care to protect migrating birds and even butterflies, and actually build ladders to help "wetback" salmon move -- and even give birth to anchor babies! -- but our fellow humans? ... of course not.

Hurricanes have recently hit Central America, and today's paper suggests that many may leave and some head north in significant numbers, perhaps creating a problem for Biden. Much as US drug use indirectly fueled migration north away from drug gangs a cpl years ago, there is some connection: we in the more developed world put more carbon into the air, climate change produces bigger storms, and like the drought migrants in Africa, people move.

As the poet said, "No man is an island." If he were, he might be underwater by now.
 
Kind of funny, we allow, even encourage, capital to cross borders to seek a better return on its investment, but labor, Nah! We get upset at times when fences prevent caribou or some other species from moving to different places to eat, calve, whatever, take care to protect migrating birds and even butterflies, and actually build ladders to help "wetback" salmon move -- and even give birth to anchor babies! -- but our fellow humans? ... of course not.

Hurricanes have recently hit Central America, and today's paper suggests that many may leave and some head north in significant numbers, perhaps creating a problem for Biden. Much as US drug use indirectly fueled migration north away from drug gangs a cpl years ago, there is some connection: we in the more developed world put more carbon into the air, climate change produces bigger storms, and like the drought migrants in Africa, people move.

As the poet said, "No man is an island." If he were, he might be underwater by now.

Define "we" in this context

Capital is abstract and has no voice, land too is silent - but labor ?
Oh yeah, labor is anything but silent !

It's why Republican owners of companies like Harley-Davidson, have no qualms about laying their workforce off any shifting production to Mexico.
 
Define "we" in this context

Capital is abstract and has no voice, land too is silent - but labor ?
Oh yeah, labor is anything but silent !

It's why Republican owners of companies like Harley-Davidson, have no qualms about laying their workforce off any shifting production to Mexico.
Capital also has no heart.

But “we” means our society.
 
Capital also has no heart.

But “we” means our society.

I already said capital is an abstract concept. It is not animal, vegetable or mineral

So by "we" you mean everyone ?

I think I could find some people who object (the former employees at Harley-Davidson spring to mind).
 
I already said capital is an abstract concept. It is not animal, vegetable or mineral

So by "we" you mean everyone ?

I think I could find some people who object (the former employees at Harley-Davidson spring to mind).
What I meant by “we” was that our society permits a sort of double standard, as it applauds capital traveling across borders for greater profits (despite the harm to US workers you point out in the Harley case, or the harm it might do in some cases to the receiving country) but rejects the notion of labor doing the same sort of thing, that is, workers seeking a better return on their “investment,” their work.
 
You're missing the point. The argument is that the Constitution requires a count of "the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed," so aliens unlawfully present should be counted and represented. There is no provision for not counting someone because federal funding won't be affected. If the argument for illegal aliens holds based on the words of the Constitution, then so too does the argument hold that visiting aliens should be counted. Persons on vacation on the census date in a different state should be counted in that state. People vacationing outside the country apparently don't deserve representation at all.


Sigh. Look before you leap, dude. Do some of the most basic research, like a Google search, instead of making shit up on the fly.
Well most illegal aliens are at least partially indigenous and thus “Indian” in ancestry and do not pay full taxes. They are thus Indians not taxes
 
What I meant by “we” was that our society permits a sort of double standard, as it applauds capital traveling across borders for greater profits (despite the harm to US workers you point out in the Harley case, or the harm it might do in some cases to the receiving country) but rejects the notion of labor doing the same sort of thing, that is, workers seeking a better return on their “investment,” their work.


I think you're confused, you're talking about society like it is a homogeneous group or even a solitary entity

You may as well say "society allows for some murderers to be executed" when that's not the case. There are many people, perhaps a majority, who oppose capital punishment.

So perhaps, you might be better off saying that financial law, in the USA, permits it (I would hesitate to say applaud it as the Harley-Davidson company drew some harsh criticism for its decision - even from Trump himself


Why can't labor move ?
A huge number of workers are transient or seasonal. The USA is also home to many foreign workers, and many Americans work overseas.
 
I think you're confused, you're talking about society like it is a homogeneous group or even a solitary entity

You may as well say "society allows for some murderers to be executed" when that's not the case. There are many people, perhaps a majority, who oppose capital punishment.

So perhaps, you might be better off saying that financial law, in the USA, permits it (I would hesitate to say applaud it as the Harley-Davidson company drew some harsh criticism for its decision - even from Trump himself


Why can't labor move ?
A huge number of workers are transient or seasonal. The USA is also home to many foreign workers, and many Americans work overseas.

A majority of Americans support capital punishment.
 
I think you're confused, you're talking about society like it is a homogeneous group or even a solitary entity

You may as well say "society allows for some murderers to be executed" when that's not the case. There are many people, perhaps a majority, who oppose capital punishment.

So perhaps, you might be better off saying that financial law, in the USA, permits it (I would hesitate to say applaud it as the Harley-Davidson company drew some harsh criticism for its decision - even from Trump himself


Why can't labor move ?
A huge number of workers are transient or seasonal. The USA is also home to many foreign workers, and many Americans work overseas.
Acknowledging your point about "we," I am still struck by the reality that the government blocks migration of illegals, yet has some programs assisting with overseas investments. Years ago, a lefty British MP tried to make this point on conservative Bill Buckley's show, "why can capital migrate and not labor?" Bill's response was that illegal migration of labor creates societal problems in the US, not acknowledging that corporations investments abroad can disrupt parts of those societies as well, and often bribe their way out of legal restrictions other countries have. For example, when I lived in Mexico many years ago, makes couldn't get jobs in US owned factories, as young women were easier to manage in the minds of the employers. One teen boy told be he wished he was a girl so he could find work.
 
Acknowledging your point about "we," I am still struck by the reality that the government blocks migration of illegals, yet has some programs assisting with overseas investments. Years ago, a lefty British MP tried to make this point on conservative Bill Buckley's show, "why can capital migrate and not labor?" Bill's response was that illegal migration of labor creates societal problems in the US, not acknowledging that corporations investments abroad can disrupt parts of those societies as well, and often bribe their way out of legal restrictions other countries have. For example, when I lived in Mexico many years ago, makes couldn't get jobs in US owned factories, as young women were easier to manage in the minds of the employers. One teen boy told be he wished he was a girl so he could find work.

Why isn't labor as transportable as capital ?

Simple reason really, people don't like moving. Less so in the USA perhaps, but in Britain, they REALLY don't like moving
I don't know if you remember the 1983-84 British coal strike and the frequently asked question by the coalminers' union, that if coal mines were allowed to close, what would happen to the coalmining communities (as if they had some right to exist)

That said, people elect governments to protect them, so they bring in rules to artificially affect the supply of labor. Like minimum wages, immigration controls, union laws etc

If the world was one giant country, labor would be free (if reluctant) to travel.
 
Kind of funny, we allow, even encourage, capital to cross borders to seek a better return on its investment, but labor, Nah! We get upset at times when fences prevent caribou or some other species from moving to different places to eat, calve, whatever, take care to protect migrating birds and even butterflies, and actually build ladders to help "wetback" salmon move -- and even give birth to anchor babies! -- but our fellow humans? ... of course not.

Hurricanes have recently hit Central America, and today's paper suggests that many may leave and some head north in significant numbers, perhaps creating a problem for Biden. Much as US drug use indirectly fueled migration north away from drug gangs a cpl years ago, there is some connection: we in the more developed world put more carbon into the air, climate change produces bigger storms, and like the drought migrants in Africa, people move.

As the poet said, "No man is an island." If he were, he might be underwater by now.

Except we DO encourage labor to come here, over a million every year. 200,000 seasonal workers every year. Nearly a million we even allow to become citizens every year,
 
Except we DO encourage labor to come here, over a million every year. 200,000 seasonal workers every year. Nearly a million we even allow to become citizens every year,
Ok, my point was that the free movement of capital is encouraged, but not the free movement of labor.
 
Ok, my point was that the free movement of capital is encouraged, but not the free movement of labor.

We do not encourage the free movement of capital globally. Just the opposite, it is tightly regulated. Countries dont just let someone move a business, property, or money into a country without govt permission and oversight. Literally there is a limit to how much cash you can bring through an airport for example, or all the way up to bitcoin, stock or bank deposits.
 
Undocummented immigrants????

Are you refering to illegal aliens?
 
Wouldn't an undocumented immigrant be by definition, an illegal alien ?

Well if they overstay a visa, they could be formerly documented, I suppose?

The left thinks its mean, I mean, ok, whatevs, right? It is what it is and honestly it is semantic.

At present the term illegal alien is used in statutory law.

8 U.S. Code § 1365 - Reimbursement of States for costs of incarcerating illegal aliens and certain Cuban nationals


" As I’ve written before, these euphemisms are tiresome"

CATO tends to be pro-immigrant.
 
Well if they overstay a visa, they could be formerly documented, I suppose?

I suppose but unlike some countries the USA does not document departures from the USA

So if a foreigner arrives on a tourist visa and stays beyond its expiration, the US government has no way of knowing if they're still here
ie: they're undocumented (because the documents pertaining to their arrival has them departed by a certain date)


The left thinks its mean, I mean, ok, whatevs, right? It is what it is and honestly it is semantic.

At present the term illegal alien is used in statutory law.

8 U.S. Code § 1365 - Reimbursement of States for costs of incarcerating illegal aliens and certain Cuban nationals


" As I’ve written before, these euphemisms are tiresome"


It's a bit like a black person
I read of some sports commentator who got into trouble by calling the "colored" recently, yet I've known blacks here refer to themselves as "people of color"
It feels you're treading on egg shells sometimes when trying to find a correct term
Is "African-American" still acceptable ?

I remember when I first came to the USA, from the UK, in 1977 I thought "black" was an offensive term.
 
Literally there is a limit to how much cash you can bring through an airport for example
Really? What's the limit in the US?
 
I presume it has been mentioned before that for all practical purposes, this is very unlikely to be an actual issue? Meaning, are there really that many illegal aliens filling out census forms, and in numbers sufficient that they might sway the apportionment of representatives? I highly doubt it. But I could be wrong.
 
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