Are These Memos Legitimate?

[Stinger]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

To Champ concerning your quoting

Ever hear of the PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY? Perhaps you need to follow this link and do some reading?

>>>http://www.newamericancentury.org/R...casDefenses.pdf

Do you have the attention span to read all 90 pages? Have you even heard of the PNAC?
Quote:
A SECRET blueprint for US global domination reveals that President Bush and his cabinet were planning a premeditated attack on Iraq to secure 'regime change' even before he took power in January 2001. The blueprint, uncovered by the Sunday Herald, for the creation of a 'global Pax Americana' was drawn up for Di*K Cheney (now vice- president), Donald Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), George W Bush's younger brother Jeb and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written in September 2000 by the neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC).<<<<

None of that is in the document you cited so you posted a phoney quote.


And where you do include some text from the report you cite such as

The plan shows Bush's cabinet intended to take military control of the Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power. It says: 'The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.'

Ahhh Bush has not been President for even a decade yet you cite a plan that has been in place for decadeS. You seem to forget that it has been the official public policy of the United States as voted on overwhelmingly by both houses and signed by President Clinton to remove Saddam and his regeime. And it is absurd to state that having a base in Saudi Arabia and a base in Iraq is taking "military control of the Gulf region."

Then you shift subjects and post

Right, he lied about getting a BJ in the Oval (or is it Oral) Office...that's it pal, nothing else. He was also found NOT GUILTY. Does that register with you? Are you capable of understanding NOT GUILTY.

He not only lied about the sexual activity he engaged in in the White House with a subordinate employee while on the job, more importantly he lied about the special treatement he gave to that subordinate employee who was servicing him sexually, the more important part. That, under federal law, is creating a hostile workplace for employees. And he lied about it under oath and before a federal grand jury and lied about the obstruction of justice he engaged in in the process tampering with witnesses and feeding phoney stories to his aids in anticipation of thier testifying. Pretty much throwing the young women he had gotten into big trouble to the dogs. And he was found GUILTY. By the presiding judge and forced to pay a hefty fine and suffer the lose of his license to practice law when the BAR in Arkansas also found him GUILTY and then he plead GUILTY to the Justice Department and plea bargined a criminal charge.

So as you so kindly put it to GPS - Does that register with you? Are you capable of understanding GUILTY? Are you capable of understanding perjury and obstruction of justice?

 

[GPS_Flex]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

GMB's we never found. And we STILL have troops there. Any complaints? Any cries that Clinton and his adminsitration lied? Any cries to pull out of Bosnia?

Good point.

I wonder if any of our pro Clinton/anti Bush people will bother to address this issue. I doubt they will because I think most of them are mindless fools who think what people like Howard Dean and Robert Byrd tell them to think.

Being a lefty isn’t about facts, it’s a religion.

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

How about proof that Melosevic had GMBs (Graves of mass burials). Remeber when the Democrats wanted to go to war because Melosevic had GMS's? GMB's we never found. And we STILL have troops there. Any complaints? Any cries that Clinton and his adminsitration lied? Any cries to pull out of Bosnia?

I don't understand. Mass graves were found in Bosnia. Do a goggle search they're story after story even from FNC documenting the mass graves.

 

[GPS_Flex]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Oh please Pacridge, WMD were found in Iraq too.

Neither were on a scale we expected. Don’t be such a BS artist.

The was irrefutable evidence the WMD existed in Iraq but there was no proof of the mass graves in Bosnia existed prior to the war.

Pull your head out of the sand.

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Oh please Pacridge, WMD were found in Iraq too.

Neither were on a scale we expected. Don’t be such a BS artist.

The was irrefutable evidence the WMD existed in Iraq but there was no proof of the mass graves in Bosnia existed prior to the war.

Pull your head out of the sand.

I'm not being a BS artist. I hadn't heard this issue of mass graves before. I'm going to assume by the tone of your post you're not actually interested in exchanging thoughts and or ideas. So I'll just go find some sand. Thanks.

 

[vandree]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Why do people keep on arguing about the WMD?
The administration has admitted that they used the WMD argument because they felt that was the only way the could get everybody to support the invasion. The memos also confirm that WMD was an excuse to give a legal basis for a war.

The WMD have been destroyed after the Gulf War. Saddam Hussein's son in law himself (he was in charge of the WMD) said that they didn't have any, because the inspectors had destroyed them.

Besides, if they did have any, don't you think that people would have said where they were? How come noone came forward? Maybe because they are not there......

As for Clinton, sure he committed perjury, I have no troubles saying that. There are a lot of things that Clinton did that I did not like and I think were wrong, so, contrary to those who support Bush, I don't come up with excuses for him.

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Why do people keep on arguing about the WMD?
The administration has admitted that they used the WMD argument because they felt that was the only way the could get everybody to support the invasion. The memos also confirm that WMD was an excuse to give a legal basis for a war.

The WMD have been destroyed after the Gulf War. Saddam Hussein's son in law himself (he was in charge of the WMD) said that they didn't have any, because the inspectors had destroyed them.

Besides, if they did have any, don't you think that people would have said where they were? How come noone came forward? Maybe because they are not there......

As for Clinton, sure he committed perjury, I have no troubles saying that. There are a lot of things that Clinton did that I did not like and I think were wrong, so, contrary to those who support Bush, I don't come up with excuses for him.

When and where did the admin. say that?

 

[Stinger]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

I don't understand. Mass graves were found in Bosnia. Do a goggle search they're story after story even from FNC documenting the mass graves.

16,000 maybe 20,000, many simply the result of warfare. Not the 100,000's of innocent murder victims we were led to believe would be found. Nothing that even compares with Saddam Hussein.

And we STILL have troops there, why do we not hear the Democrats crying for a timetable to get out of Bosnia?

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

16,000 maybe 20,000, many simply the result of warfare. Not the 100,000's of innocent murder victims we were led to believe would be found. Nothing that even compares with Saddam Hussein.

And we STILL have troops there, why do we not hear the Democrats crying for a timetable to get out of Bosnia?

I honestly didn't know there was any controversy concerning this. I alway heard about there being 100k's of people missing and that there were something like 300 mass graves with 1000's of people in them. So you're saying there were about 16K to 20K of actual murder victims? If there that many people missing and we only found that many in MG's- where'd all those people go?

 

[Stinger]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

I honestly didn't know there was any controversy concerning this. I alway heard about there being 100k's of people missing and that there were something like 300 mass graves with 1000's of people in them. So you're saying there were about 16K to 20K of actual murder victims? If there that many people missing and we only found that many in MG's- where'd all those people go?

Some with a couple of hundred some with only a dozen, many just the result of warfare and having to bury people quickly. But the point is where is the outcry from the Democrat side over the lack of the 100,000's of victims as Clinton used to justify going to war and the fact that there is no exit strategy and not timetable even though he said we'd only be there for a year and a half at most?

WHERE ARE GMB's?

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Some with a couple of hundred some with only a dozen, many just the result of warfare and having to bury people quickly. But the point is where is the outcry from the Democrat side over the lack of the 100,000's of victims as Clinton used to justify going to war and the fact that there is no exit strategy and not timetable even though he said we'd only be there for a year and a half at most?

WHERE ARE GMB's?

I really don't understand what you want people to be outraged about. That there aren't enough people in those graves? I'd say finding 300 graves and the fact they're still finding graves and bodies would confirm there was a problem. Plus there's still a huge amount of people missing.

This doesn't even come close to being the same thing as the missing WMD's. We were told he had, in stock piles, we knew where they were- that it was a "slam dunk." To my knowledge so far all we've found are conventional weapons.

Plus this seemed to be the argument of either side. Some one points out the BS of Clinton and it's only a matter of time and the thread becomes an anti-Bush thread. And visa-versa.

 

[Stinger]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

I really don't understand what you want people to be outraged about. That there aren't enough people in those graves? I'd say finding 300 graves and the fact they're still finding graves and bodies would confirm there was a problem. Plus there's still a huge amount of people missing.

OK then how bad is finding 100,000's of them and still having 100,000's missing. Saddam was exponentially worse that Milosevic. It's not that I want peopled outraged because Clinton go it wrong, I am asking why the left was not outraged at Clinton but are spinning out of control over Bush.

This doesn't even come close to being the same thing as the missing WMD's.

Excuse me! Saddam murder tens of thousands with WMD, again exponentially more than Milosevic did. Yet the left says he should have been left in place and Bush was a liar and on and on and on.

We were told he had, in stock piles,

Yes and at one point he had stockpiles and we still don't know what happened to them, but so what? He still had the capibility and the rabid desire to pocess them and use them. And he had a plan in the works, a plan that was almost to fruition and had not Bush stopped him would have been successful. We would now have a Saddam more empowered and in pocession of his WMD, chemical and biological for sure and probabaly nuclear.

we knew where they were- that it was a "slam dunk." To my knowledge so far all we've found are conventional weapons.

Go read the Kay and Duelfer reports, all we didn't find were ready made stockpiles.

Plus this seemed to be the argument of either side. Some one points out the BS of Clinton and it's only a matter of time and the thread becomes an anti-Bush thread. And visa-versa.

The argument is if Clinton was justified in using military force to remove Milosevic and commit troops there to keep the peace until a transition could take place then surely Bush was even more justified in doing so against Saddam. The reality is that even those who opposed Clinton going into Bosnia, supported him and more importantly the troops and the mission once Clinton committed us to it. This as opposed to the left which is doing everything in it's power to insure our failure in Iraq, to keep those in the middle east incited against us and propagandize all for their political advantage and for the purpose of gaining political power.

 

[Squawker]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

I ditto that Stinger. The double standard that exists is ridiculous. The left will hurt our troops and our Country, just for the sake of making President Bush and the Republican party look incompetent.

 

[GPS_Flex]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Wait, I got lost, I never saw the kid with down syndrome. Are you talking about the picture with Bush dressed like Napoleon? And if so, are you implying that Bush has down syndrome? I'm confused.

The site Admin quickly removed the picture of the Downs kid. Apologies were made on both sides and I prefer to let the issue rest.

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

OK then how bad is finding 100,000's of them and still having 100,000's missing. Saddam was exponentially worse that Milosevic. It's not that I want peopled outraged because Clinton go it wrong, I am asking why the left was not outraged at Clinton but are spinning out of control over Bush.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

But as far as the left being outraged regarding Clinton and Bosnia. The left, much like the right is made up of lots of different groups. All with their own agenda and philosphy. There actual were groups opposed to going to war in Bosnia. There's always going to be anti-war groups. But you're right the left, by and large, did not oppose Clinton or the Bosnian war

Excuse me! Saddam murder tens of thousands with WMD, again exponentially more than Milosevic did. Yet the left says he should have been left in place and Bush was a liar and on and on and on.

I'm not so sure the left thought he should be left alone. They just preferred wroking with the UN and the inspectors rather then going to war with a country that did not attack us.

Yes and at one point he had stockpiles and we still don't know what happened to them, but so what? He still had the capibility and the rabid desire to pocess them and use them. And he had a plan in the works, a plan that was almost to fruition and had not Bush stopped him would have been successful. We would now have a Saddam more empowered and in pocession of his WMD, chemical and biological for sure and probabaly nuclear.

So what? I think it's a little more then so what. Esp. when it turns out we were so wrong.

Go read the Kay and Duelfer reports, all we didn't find were ready made stockpiles.

No, what we didn't find were the WMD's. WMD's that we were told they knew for certain he had and we knew where he had them.

The argument is if Clinton was justified in using military force to remove Milosevic and commit troops there to keep the peace until a transition could take place then surely Bush was even more justified in doing so against Saddam. The reality is that even those who opposed Clinton going into Bosnia, supported him and more importantly the troops and the mission once Clinton committed us to it. This as opposed to the left which is doing everything in it's power to insure our failure in Iraq, to keep those in the middle east incited against us and propagandize all for their political advantage and for the purpose of gaining political power.

No the reality is that many of those on the GOP side did not support Clinton or the troops. Which is why people on the right made statement like:

"This is President Clinton's war, and when he falls flat on his face, that's his problem." Sen. Richard Lugar May 1999

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning. I didn't think we did enough in the diplomatic area." Sen. Trent Lott May 1999

"They haven't prepared for anything in this. And they're running out of weapons to do it. And frankly I don't think Clinton has the moral authority or ability to fight this war correctly." Sean Hannity May 1999

Of course Hannity managed to change his tune completely on supporting the President four short years later when he said:

"Here we are in a conflict, in a war, and the President is trying to direct things, and they can't put aside their partisanship for five minutes and support the President." April, 2003

I think you're right that partisan politics is a problem. I just think the partisanship occurs on both sides of the fence.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

16,000 maybe 20,000, many simply the result of warfare. Not the 100,000's of innocent murder victims we were led to believe would be found. Nothing that even compares with Saddam Hussein.

From where I'm sitting 16k to 20k sure seems like a big number to me. How dimented is it if we think that because someone killed less than Saddam that it's not a crime?

And we STILL have troops there, why do we not hear the Democrats crying for a timetable to get out of Bosnia?

The American troops are part of a UN Peacekeeping force that was made up of NATO nations but is now almost completely EURFOR (European troops).

When's the last time an American was killed in Bosnia? How about in Iraq?

One more question? Bush has been President for more than 4 years now, how come he hasn't pulled our troops from there?

 

[GPS_Flex]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Clinton told us he was going to war with Milosevic to stop the “genocide “Milosevic was perpetrating upon Muslims in Kosovo. I think the final tally of exhumed bodies was under 4000.

Genocide? Hardly! But that’s what we went to war for.

Double standard? Clearly!

We found real mass graves in Iraq. I think the number of exhumed in Iraq is around 400,000 bodies.

If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot's Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II.

 

[GPS_Flex]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

From where I'm sitting 16k to 20k sure seems like a big number to me. How dimented is it if we think that because someone killed less than Saddam that it's not a crime?

I’m certain that number is way too high but that’s really irrelevant because I don’t believe anyone here is trying to say it wasn’t a crime.

The point being made here is that some of you lefties refuse to condemn Clinton for a much bigger failure than you accuse Bush of; “reasons for going to war and what we found after it was over”.

You lefties like to argue about “immanent threat” when it relates to the Iraq war but refuse to apply that same standard to Clinton and Kosovo. Why is that?

You refuse to acknowledge the fact that one of the biggest reasons Bush went to war was to stop the murder/torture of thousands of people. Why is that a good enough reason for Clinton but not for Bush?

If you are going to condemn Bush, you must also condemn Clinton.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

The point being made here is that some of you lefties refuse to condemn Clinton for a much bigger failure than you accuse Bush of; “reasons for going to war and what we found after it was over”.

Me leftie, me condemn Clinton for going to war, me leftie no like war....

You refuse to acknowledge the fact that one of the biggest reasons Bush went to war was to stop the murder/torture of thousands of people.

This is not a truthful statement. We were told we went to war because Saddam was going to Nuke us, remember? We "lefties" can easily admit that Clinton screwed up, but you "righties" (or is it wrongies?) make it up as you go. Bush told us we were going to get nuked if we didn't invade Iraq. Clinton told us we were going to stop genocide....he never said we were threatened....oh....did you forget that we were joined by NATO? How come NATO didn't chip in when we invaded Iraq? How come France & Germany joined us in Bosnia? How come virtually no Americans were killed in Bosnia? I think it's because Clinton's a much, much better Commander in Chief than Georgie the pseudo cowboy...don't you?

If you are going to condemn Bush, you must also condemn Clinton.

OK! I've condemned Clinton...and I've condemned Bush....You, however, have condemned Clinton and genuflected to Bush the Almighty....Using your logic:

If you praise Bush you must also praise Clinton....So all of you "wrongies" think Clinton did a great job in Bosnia, right? The war ended, the killing stopped, almost no Americans were killed, the peacekeeping force has been converted to almost all EURFORC soldiers....isn't that what you "wrongies" want to happen in Iraq?

 

[GPS_Flex]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

This is not a truthful statement. We were told we went to war because Saddam was going to Nuke us, remember? We "lefties" can easily admit that Clinton screwed up, but you "righties" (or is it wrongies?) make it up as you go. Bush told us we were going to get nuked if we didn't invade Iraq.

I don’t have time to continue tonight but if someone else doesn’t crush this argument by tomorrow night, I’ll crush it.

Do I need to list the reasons congress authorized the use of force for you?

 

[Pacridge]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

Me leftie, me condemn Clinton for going to war, me leftie no like war....

This is not a truthful statement. We were told we went to war because Saddam was going to Nuke us, remember? We "lefties" can easily admit that Clinton screwed up, but you "righties" (or is it wrongies?) make it up as you go. Bush told us we were going to get nuked if we didn't invade Iraq. Clinton told us we were going to stop genocide....he never said we were threatened....oh....did you forget that we were joined by NATO? How come NATO didn't chip in when we invaded Iraq? How come France & Germany joined us in Bosnia? How come virtually no Americans were killed in Bosnia? I think it's because Clinton's a much, much better Commander in Chief than Georgie the pseudo cowboy...don't you?

OK! I've condemned Clinton...and I've condemned Bush....You, however, have condemned Clinton and genuflected to Bush the Almighty....Using your logic:

If you praise Bush you must also praise Clinton....So all of you "wrongies" think Clinton did a great job in Bosnia, right? The war ended, the killing stopped, almost no Americans were killed, the peacekeeping force has been converted to almost all EURFORC soldiers....isn't that what you "wrongies" want to happen in Iraq?

Well you're certainly not the first lefty I've heard speak ill of Clinton and the war Bosnia. I think the left has a long history of being anti-war. Certainly anti-war when we, the US, are not being directly attacked. I remember civil protests against the war in Bosnia.

And I find the argument of "it's just not ok to speak ill of the President or his policies during a time of war" to be completely off base. I had no problem finding neg. comment after neg. comment made by the right in regards to Clinton and his policy during a war. It doesn't make any sense and it's usually completely hypocritical.

But there's a lot on the left side being hypocritical as well. It's all partisan BS.

 

[akyron]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

I also suggest that all of you read the material that Squawk linked in his post, it is very, very revealing, and troubling. Spin all you want Bushies, but we're talking smoking gun, and not from Democrats. The memos cite David Manning who is now the UK ambassador to the US, not exactly a person looking to castrate Bush.?

It is neither revealing nor troubling.

"copies"

Talk is cheap after the fact.


"Toby Dodge, an Iraq expert who teaches at Queen Mary College, University of London, said the documents confirmed what post-invasion investigations have found."

How could they not since they were just released?

Originals were not reviewed.
You believe what you want and it is convenient they can never be proven true or false if they were really destroyed.

Michael Smith's admission means there's now no independent way to determine the accuracy of the Downing Street memo.

You could have typed this up yesterday and none could really say yea or nay as to its authenticity.

Even if it was real its a non issue.
You should know there is a plan for the administration to attack Canada and Mexico if they get lippy as well.

 

[Fantasea]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

So he typed copies and destroyed the originals. Is that the story? Even Dan Rather knew that kind of story would never fly.

 

[vandree]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

We found real mass graves in Iraq. I think the number of exhumed in Iraq is around 400,000 bodies.

Downing Street has admitted to The Observer that repeated claims by Tony Blair that '400,000 bodies had been found in Iraqi mass graves' is untrue, and only about 5,000 corpses have so far been uncovered.

Of 270 suspected grave sites identified in the last year, 55 have now been examined, revealing, according to the best estimates that The Observer has been able to obtain, around 5,000 bodies.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1263830,00.html

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Re: Are These Memo’s Legitimate?

So, has the UK gov said that these memoes did not exist?

Has there been any denial of their authenticity from the purported authors?

Or is there only speculation like what I've seen here?