Are mass shootings and higher gun deaths an acceptable part of a free society?

[Casper]

Go watch the video. Oliver specifically addresses this misconception.

I did, he is wrong. Clue most gun violence, notice he jumps between mass shootings to gun violence as if they are one in the same topic and that the only answer is more gun control, a typical Brit. Most deaths where a gun was employed are suicides, so is your speaker attempting to say that people so depressed as to kill themselves are not suffering from a mental illness, if so he is the idiot that should not be calling others the same. Like it or not most Mass shootings are committed by those already identified as having issues and were not dealt with. The rest of the gun violence is a result of Criminal activities and even an idiot entertainer should know that criminals do not care what laws are passed to take away honest citizens from owning guns, in fact it makes their job easier. Don't take everything you are told as gospel, even when they try to be funny, they have their own agenda and are not being honest, if they were they would have an opposing view there to discuss the issue and bring balance. YouTube is fun, but that is all it is, entertainment.

 

[TurtleDude]

There are ways to make them occur less often, but I don't think we will ever stomp them out completely. A good mental health system would be a start.

true, and given countries that essentially ban gun ownership have had mass shootings, the answer is obviously that they cannot be wiped out. and the cost of using gun bans in a specious attempt to eliminate such shootings will cost far more than they are worth

 

[TurtleDude]

Anyone who thinks gun control laws will stop mass killings is delusional.

those who push gun control to stop mass murders are-in some cases delusional sheep-but for the most part dishonest liars who have another agenda. That agenda is one that is int particularly palatable at the public level so they have to pretend its about stopping murder

 

[joG]

Here is one public health NIH article and an APA study. I am going to have to read more of them too. You get caught up in these debates and forget to further your education about the facts.

Thank you.

 

[ttwtt78640]

We live in a country in which we are guaranteed the right to bear arms in order to defend ourselves and our property. In order to maintain that right we sometimes must deal with mass shootings. Are these shootings a necessary part, or an inevitable side effect of that right?

Yes, just as "accidents" are going to occur from travel in our skies and on our roadways. Of course, the term accident implies that one was paying full time and attention to their driving (or piloting), was completely sober, had sufficient sleep and was obeying all the traffic laws - which is far from the truth in most traffic "accidents" . We pay lots of attention to mass shootings, just as we pay lots of attention to airline crashes but the basic reality is that far, far more folks are shot in "normal" criminal acts and far, far more people die in traffic "accidents" than in airline crashes. We must keep in mind that there are more gun deaths and injuriies in just the city of Chicago than in all mass shootings nationwide.

 

[KevinKohler]

I voted other.


Simply put, freedom =/= security. More of one tends to be less of the other. The least binding, most free places in the world also tend to be rape/theft/murder hot spots. You see, killing, violence, cruelty...it's in our nature. Ever watch little kids in a group environment with no adult supervision? That **** goes down in flames and becomes uncivil FAST. Kids...are ruthless, merciless, cruel, and, in short...devoid of empathy. I HAVE two kids of my own, and I say this. To me, small children exhibit the very basis of human nature. Greed, jealousy, guile. We, as parents, have to TEACH them, and FORCE them not to, and at times, harshly PUNISH them, for exhibiting these traits. That's just a fact. Civility is not in our nature, it is something that we are taught, have to work at, and WILL into our beings. Morality is a man made construct.

I said these things, in order for an understanding to be had, here. It's a tug of war. Instead of little kids, substitute millions of people. Instead of parents, substitute government...state, federal, law enforcement, judicial, etc etc etc. Now, think to yourself...how many parents per child do you need to help them repress that which is in their nature to do? How many government agents per citizen do you WANT to be present, in order to keep us all on the right track in repressing that which is in our natures to do?

Make no mistake, tighter gun laws can be made...but that won't mean a hill of beans, if there are not enforcers enough to see it through. Children....er.....PEOPLE....don't WILLINGLY give up things that they have had, just because they are told to. You'd think that we, as a society, would have learned this with prohibition, but, I guess, we're very slow learners.

 

[KevinKohler]

So, I guess, to answer...crime is a simple inevitability. Gather a large enough group of people(children), with a small enough number of enforcers(parents), and some **** WILL go down. Someone WILL steal, someone WILL decide to take something, rather than work for it, someone WILL become uncivil.

For there to be no crime, be it with guns or without, there must be one of two things...either a shift in basic human nature (evolution), or a police state, which is where we in the US are quite rapidly heading.

So, which would you rather have? Freedom and crime, or no freedom, and no crime? Or...perhaps, something in the middle? Middle, right?

 

[Helix]

There are ways to make them occur less often, but I don't think we will ever stomp them out completely. A good mental health system would be a start.

pretty much this. a good chunk of these mass shooters are nutters, and therapy is really expensive here. that's a definite potential area for improvement.

 

[ttwtt78640]

There are ways to make them occur less often, but I don't think we will ever stomp them out completely. A good mental health system would be a start.

Rather than fix (properly fund and run) the horrid asylums (in-patient mental care facilities) of the past we closed them and now use either nothing or the prison (jail) system to "treat" the mentally ill. There is no inexpensive (small government?) method of caring for the mentally ill. Gun bans, like other unfunded mandates, do not require billions to enact and let those that govern say that they "did something" (or at least tried to). I agree that letting the insane and convicted violent felons roam freely among us is most of the problem - yet the alternative is either very expensive or considered inhumane.

 

[Phys251]

I did, he is wrong. Clue most gun violence, notice he jumps between mass shootings to gun violence as if they are one in the same topic and that the only answer is more gun control, a typical Brit. Most deaths where a gun was employed are suicides, so is your speaker attempting to say that people so depressed as to kill themselves are not suffering from a mental illness, if so he is the idiot that should not be calling others the same. Like it or not most Mass shootings are committed by those already identified as having issues and were not dealt with. The rest of the gun violence is a result of Criminal activities and even an idiot entertainer should know that criminals do not care what laws are passed to take away honest citizens from owning guns, in fact it makes their job easier. Don't take everything you are told as gospel, even when they try to be funny, they have their own agenda and are not being honest, if they were they would have an opposing view there to discuss the issue and bring balance. YouTube is fun, but that is all it is, entertainment.

I guess you didn't look at the study where Oliver specifically points out that less than 5% of gun murders were perpetrated by people with diagnosed mental illnesses, and that most mentally ill people are nonviolent.

 

[VanceMack]

I know you werent speaking to me and my reply might be out of context.

What I would like to see changed is "almost always granted" part of these orders. Sounds to me a whole lot like temporary restraining orders which have no due process.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No...almost always granted means that judges almost always cede to the facility except when the individual has an attorney and the attorney can provide compelling legal rationale that the stay would be overturned.

 

[VanceMack]

Lack of people being aware of the issue, or ability to do a darn thing about it, and that includes most government agencies and institutions. If your nonsense is an example of your capabilities you might want to rethink discussing the topic.

Geeeezus...can you offer anything more than vague generalities? What is ACTUALLY LACKING???

 

[mak2]

But you must admit you have to be crazy to kill a bunch of people. The articles I read didn't actually say they were always nonviolent, just sa their disease wore on year after year and got worse, they became less functional and therefore less violence capable. If we had a better way to diagnose them on initial contact perhaps over the years some lives would be saved, if of course, they were reported.

I guess you didn't look at the study where Oliver specifically points out that less than 5% of gun murders were perpetrated by people with diagnosed mental illnesses, and that most mentally ill people are nonviolent.

 

[TurtleDude]

If, however, we go the way of say...Australia, a gun free nation (more or less) we wouldn't have these mass shootings anywhere near the level of today. But is that a price we're willing to pay?

I think we'd have almost as many shootings and of course we would have all the deaths that came from forcibly confiscating 300 million plus guns

 

[VanceMack]

If we're going to scapegoat mental health as the underlying cause of mass shootings, then let's actually address it head-on.

This makes the point...and it is ironic because it is ALWAYS brought up on this site when a shooting happens...and ONLY when it happens.

Which is why I keep asking WTF "THEY" are talking about...and obviously..."THEY" dont know themselves.

 

[Casper]

I guess you didn't look at the study where Oliver specifically points out that less than 5% of gun murders were perpetrated by people with diagnosed mental illnesses, and that most mentally ill people are nonviolent.

Murders, that discounts all the suicides, the majority of gun Deaths, tied to mental health issues. Yes, typical murders far out number those involved in mass shootings since the mass murder numbers are actually quit small. More people died in Chicago since the Orlando shooting and were done under stiff gun laws and committed by criminals, meaning more laws are not the answer and making fun of those claiming that mass shootings have nothing to do with mental health issues is dishonest at best. You are cherry picking your/his stats, not honest on either part.

 

[TurtleDude]

There are on average 1-2 'mass shootings' a year in a country with approx 120 million gun owners. France on the other hand experienced 2 mass shootings in that same year (along with 8 other terrorist attacks). In those 2 attacks alone there were 150 dead and 374 wounded. This in a country of 66 million (1/6th the population of the US) and with total bans on the guns.

Fair comparison?

France doesn't totally ban guns-indeed Five Time world IPSC (speed pistol combat style shooting) Champion Eric Graufel is from France and you can own-with restrictive licenses pistols with 23 shot magazines

 

[Casper]

I think we'd have almost as many shootings and of course we would have all the deaths that came from forcibly confiscating 300 million plus guns

Correct, Americans are not the Sheeple that Australians have been conditioned to be, want to see gun deaths in huge numbers try a forcible confiscation of guns here in the US.

 

[Phys251]

But you must admit you have to be crazy to kill a bunch of people. The articles I read didn't actually say they were always nonviolent, just sa their disease wore on year after year and got worse, they became less functional and therefore less violence capable. If we had a better way to diagnose them on initial contact perhaps over the years some lives would be saved, if of course, they were reported.

Crazy in the metaphorical sense, yes. But I think that a more common scenario is that they gave into their hatred and turned to the dark side.

We all get pissed from time to time, but most of us choose to recognize that there are limits as to what we should do while in a state of anger. People who don't make that choice tend to wind up on the news.

 

[Phys251]

This makes the point...and it is ironic because it is ALWAYS brought up on this site when a shooting happens...and ONLY when it happens.

Which is why I keep asking WTF "THEY" are talking about...and obviously..."THEY" dont know themselves.

Clarification question: Who do you mean by "they"?

 

[Howler63]

France doesn't totally ban guns-indeed Five Time world IPSC (speed pistol combat style shooting) Champion Eric Graufel is from France and you can own-with restrictive licenses pistols with 23 shot magazines

True, but the average Francois Pierre isn't packing. And he'd not find it easy to start.

 

[Casper]

Geeeezus...can you offer anything more than vague generalities? What is ACTUALLY LACKING???

If the topic is too deep for you maybe you should just read and avoid attempting to discussing it yourself. YOUR SKILL SET.

 

[VanceMack]

France doesn't totally ban guns-indeed Five Time world IPSC (speed pistol combat style shooting) Champion Eric Graufel is from France and you can own-with restrictive licenses pistols with 23 shot magazines

Certainly the automatic type and as I understand it there are tons of hoops to jump through. I believe i read recently that in addition to the limit of weapons there is something like a munitions limit of 50 rounds.

 

[Phys251]

Murders, that discounts all the suicides, the majority of gun Deaths, tied to mental health issues. Yes, typical murders far out number those involved in mass shootings since the mass murder numbers are actually quit small. More people died in Chicago since the Orlando shooting and were done under stiff gun laws and committed by criminals, meaning more laws are not the answer and making fun of those claiming that mass shootings have nothing to do with mental health issues is dishonest at best. You are cherry picking your/his stats, not honest on either part.

Don't try to overly simplify the very complex situation that is our nation's cluster**** of gun laws. You are aware that Chicagoans can travel just a few miles east to Indiana, where gun regulations are much looser, and buy guns there. Because of the persistence of gun smuggling, gun laws are only as strong as their weakest link.

Also, nowhere--nowhere--did Oliver or I suggest that "mass shootings have nothing to do with mental health issues." You should not accuse us of being dishonest and then turn around and distort the facts. The problem is that "mental illness" tends to be a scapegoat, when it is its own problem in its own right.

 

[VanceMack]

Clarification question: Who do you mean by "they"?

In this thread, start with Mak2...the one that brought it up in the first place. Its the same song and dance though every time I see it brought up.

Ive talked about this issue numerous times. (as an example) http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...nce-flares-post1065616916.html#post1065616916
I work in this environment every day of my life. So when I people say "well obviously the problem is mental health" I want to know what THEY mean.

ONE of the very real problems we have with the mental health system is that the programs in my state at least are in place...they are just overwhelmed and not by people that actually need to be there. Every county in the state is covered by a contract provider that provides free care where needed and services to medicare/medicaid recipients. if you want to see the problem go hang out at their facilities on the weekend. You see a lot of people that work the system and fill the dorms but that are not mentally ill. Lazy, incorrigible, malingerers...yes. All? No...but far too many. The resources allocated are spent on people that dont need them. But there ARE community services. MOST of the hospitals have inpatient behavioral health care. There are contract provider assisted living facilities with on site case managers. And there is a state hospital that you really have to earn entry to. Resources are there...but there is no bottomless pit of resources. At some point those capable need to be able to stand up. Where capable, families need to be engaged.